Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/covers!

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Re: Do I not like GB decimal machins?!

Post by norvic »

1. The colours are the same, the shade varies according to the intensity of the ink, the paper, and the temperature of the water that it was soaked off in. Used stamps vary enormously, especially on very long or repeated print runs.

2. 10p - on the centre stamp the pale orange colour is lighter than the other two. Again, as a used stamp - in this case used in the period 1990-2010, much later than when it was originally issued in 1971 - anything could have happened to it to change the colour.
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by JonEboy »

**MOD HAT ON**

Following a suggestion from another Stampboarder I've merged wilko's original post into this thread as it seems more appropriate sitting here.

Jon

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Re: Do I not like GB decimal machins?!

Post by gooner »

norvic wrote:2. 10p - on the centre stamp the pale orange colour is lighter than the other two. Again, as a used stamp - in this case used in the period 1990-2010, much later than when it was originally issued in 1971 - anything could have happened to it to change the colour.
Including having been exposed to direct sunlight for a period, even whilst still in mint form.

Shades, in general, is a very subjective matter and depends much on the eyesight of the beholder.
Except in very exceptional circumstances the Deegam Handbook (the Machin Bible) veers away from shades for this very reason. You might see a listing with the word "shades" next to it to indicate that different shades are known, but that is usually the total depth of the listing.

I am afraid I don't really know of a catalogue that lists shades in any detail, and even if it existed it would be for MINT stamps only for the obvious reasons associated with shade change on the USED issues,
Regards .. Dave
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by wilko »

If shades are good enough for Victoria and George V collectors why not for machin collectors? Nobody is going to tell me that all the GV green shades are different colours rather than shades of the same colour and I don't recall anyone saying the colours have changed because of the amount of light or the temperature of the water they have been exposed to so let's treat them all as "green". I would have thought that with modern stamps the prospect of colour altering due to environment would be much less.

As for the 10p's I assume that the postmark on the middle suggests late use. Anyway the stamp is officially orange-brown and chestnut and the differences are that the other 2 have a much more orange appearance particularly in the central portion of the stamp but, more particularly, the value appears to be uniformly white whereas on the other 2 is a pale orangey-brown.

Could this be due to how the stamp has been kept? Perhaps, but in my Concise there is a variety orange-brown omitted. Could it be that? Certainly the stamp appears to lack the overall orange tint that the others in my collection all have.

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by gooner »

wilko wrote:If shades are good enough for Victoria and George V collectors why not for machin collectors? Nobody is going to tell me that all the GV green shades are different colours rather than shades of the same colour and I don't recall anyone saying the colours have changed because of the amount of light or the temperature of the water they have been exposed to so let's treat them all as "green". I would have thought that with modern stamps the prospect of colour altering due to environment would be much less.
Nobody is saying you can't or even shouldn't collect Machin shades, it is entirely up to what the collector wants in his album. If the collector is willing to put the work in to distinguish and expertise the shades then he/she will have a valid collection.

IMHO ONLY - if you just stick a load of shades into an album without putting the investigative hours in - then you may as well collect newspaper.

My views are based on the opinion of far more eminent Machin collectors than I.
I don't collect them personally for the reasons already outlined above and in any case I really only collect MNH Machins.
The question above is primarily regarding USED I believe.
I think the main point is that although shades exist, it is probably a case of "caveat emptor" as they are easily faked in most cases and, more importantly, the relatively low value means that the cost of "expertisation" would outweigh the value of the stamp, certainly for a dealer.

I think comparing the Victoria / George V shades listed with Machins is bit like comparing Apples and Oranges in that the only thing they have in common is that they are both fruit (stamps). Why?
  • QV/EVII/GV listed shade differences are normally (not always) for quite valuable issues.
  • The paper/gums/printing process up to 1930 was a lot different than that from 1970.
  • There are also a lot less different varieties to list than in the case of Machins.
  • IMHO there were also a lot more collectors willing to go the extra mile to provide provenance for a pre 1935 shade than there are today for post 1970.
PS .. I am not an expert in the era pre 1970 but weren't most of the early recognised shades of that period deliberate rather than in the case of Machins purely accidental? I don't know I am just posing the question.
Regards .. Dave
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Re: Do I not like GB decimal machins?!

Post by norvic »

wilko wrote:Image
Sorry, it's not 'uniformly white' it's uniformly pale chestnut, just paler than the others. On my screen I can clearly see colour, so it's not a colour omitted variety.
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by wilko »

Ian , we will have to agree to differ about the colour of the value. To my eye with the actual stamp in my hand it is colourless and it may just be that the quality of the scan is not great. Whether if I am right it makes it what I think it might be is another matter.

Gooner, an interesting point you pose at the end of your mail. I have collected quite a lot of QV surface printed. In the various reference books I have there is mention of the various shades of a certain value and sometimes you will see that it will say for example "Deep mauve (July 1868)" of some such thing which suggests a conscious decision on the part of the printer to change the colour. However , more often than not catalogues will just list a certain stamp with varieties including deep and pale etc with no date. This implies to me that there was no conscious decision to change colour and it was just a matter of luck how any batch came out. However I have not actually read anywhere confirmation that my theory is correct, not even in SG specialised and the like which you would thought would have that insight. If you gather enough surface printed stamps you then begin to realise that there are also a few stamps which don't really fit into any recognised catalogue shade which again confirms my view that it was just how that batch came out if they mixed the colour a bit strong or whatever.

Moving on to the 1913 GV block cypher issue the are the following varieties of the halfpenny in my old specialised catalogue:

1. green
2. dp gn
3. pale gn
4. very pale gn
5. very dp gn
6. bright gn
7. dp br gn
8. yellow gn
9. dull yell-gn
10. very yell-gn
11. br yell-gn
12. olive gn
13. pale olive-gn
14. blue gn
15. dp blue gn
16. dp myrtle gn
17. cobalt gn
18. dp cobalt gn

Some of these shades are dated others not which again suggests some were planned and others just came out that way. Wouldn't it be nice if the modern machins were produced in a way where a man with a colour chart would mix and check the colour with his naked eye and not be too worried if the colour was a bit off. We might then get few colour varieties and not the uniformity which seems to be the goal to which modern printers strive.

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by gooner »

wilko wrote:Ian , we will have to agree to differ about the colour of the value. To my eye with the actual stamp in my hand it is colourless and it may just be that the quality of the scan is not great. Whether if I am right it makes it what I think it might be is another matter.
And I think the above quote gives evidence to my previous assertion that different people see different shade on the same stamps (eye of the beholder). So cataloguing them is possible but meaningless as some people will see the shades whilst others will see them differently.
Regards .. Dave
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by gooner »

wilko wrote:Ian , we will have to agree to differ about the colour of the value. To my eye with the actual stamp in my hand it is colourless and it may just be that the quality of the scan is not great. Whether if I am right it makes it what I think it might be is another matter.
And I think the above quote gives evidence to my previous assertion that different people see different shade on the same stamps (eye of the beholder). So cataloguing them is possible but meaningless as some people will see the shades whilst others will see them differently.
Regards .. Dave
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by crazyh1 »

Shades are a hornets nest - and I speak as a specialised student of both Machins and GB Victorian Line Engraved stamps. I entirely agree that shades are in the eye of the beholder, unless you can do a spectrometer analysis to determine the make up of the ink that is, but that isn't going to happen any time soon. That said, I will give a couple of line engraved 1d red examples which provide an insight into the cataloguers art.

1. There are a couple of 1d reds which are catalogued as being in a shade called Plum (SG Spec C1 and C8), these carry very high premium catalogue values. There is a school of thought that says that neither really exists, not because none have been seen, but rather because if you compare expertised examples over many decades, you will find that the shade is different across time. This is also not helped by the fact that the SG catalogue value for plum has climbed exponentially since the SG specialised catalogue was first introduced. In other words, the plum shade was low value and became high value......thoughts as to why that might be on a postcard :-)

2. Catalogues are not always correct. To take the SG specialised volume 1 again, the period covered by the catalogue number C9 is a doozy. The cat states that this 'issue' is the result of experiments to remove paper bluing, which in turn leads to the shade variant seen. This assertion is in fact based upon the assertions of authors of decades gone by. Research in the last 2-3yrs has determined that there is no primary source evidence to support that claim. Rather the changes are more likely (nee certainly) related to the fact that the printer's building burnt down and they had to print fast at a new location for a few months, very probably with a different ink mix. This mess has led to the situation where the catalogue lists a Pale Rose and a Pale Red for both C9 and C10. The latter is tosh.

Move on in time to say George V, there is an ever increasing number of shades listed. Some of these can be attributed to specific printings/dates/controls, some not so much. Whether any were intentional ink changes I would bow to a relevant specialist.

Finally Machins - there are most definitely some clear shade variants and SG lists them in the specialised, I think the Connoisseur does too. They are usually attributable to specific cylinders, but are not an intentional change in colour of the ink, rather that the mix of ink for that run didn't conform 100% to the specification. This is a situation that has reduced markedly over the years as technology has improved, but even in relatively recent times the human eye was still doing checks. The 00p Machins that are out on the market are from colour matching sheets which the printers had to try to ensure the best possible match between printers, let along printings within any one printing house.

So, where does that leave us? I think shades can make an interesting part of a collection, but they should be recognised for what they are, a mostly (though not always) unintentional variation of the manufacturing process; which have then been exposed to the environment in unknown ways since they were printed. Is a red-brown 1d red imperf the same colour now as when it was printed in 1841? Probably not!

Such is the fun of collecting :-)

Scott

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

Not so much a new shade as a completely wrong colour! The definitive pane from the forthcoming Inventive Britain prestige book includes what I regard as a glaring error.
Image
Enlargements of the stamps which are coded M14L MPIL:

Image Image
Image Image

Now admittedly the shades do not show particularly well under the LED-microscope, but even these images demonstrate the problem.

(a) the 81p sheet stamp and the one from the book. (b) the 81p from this book and the 68p from the Roald Dahl PSB.
Image Image

The apparent difference in colours of (b) is down to the different ink for the iridescent ink layer.

Normally this would be described as an error of colour, but as the PSB is the only source of this 81p stamp Royal Mail can claim it as a shade, or deliberate change, I suppose. The 81p sheet is quite similar to the 2p sheet, but yellower.
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by 60022Mallard »

Possibly a dead end siding, but do QV and the Kings collectors ever try using UV lamps to help "see" colour / shade differences?

The post war BMA Malaya issues with reds and purples can produce quite noticeable differences under UV as differently constituted inks were used.

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

Interesting point, as after I posted the previous I was sent a UV photo of the definitive pane, and particularly the 1p stamp.

Image

This orange glow also happened with the 5p stamps from the Airmail Centenary and Dr Who PSBs and the 1p and 5p from the Football Heroes PSB. All those were printed by Cartor, but the 5p stamps from other books printed by Enschede do not have this attribute.
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

The first 2015 reprints of counter sheet Machins have appeared, just ahead of the stamps for the new tariff. Not surprising that there has been a reprint of the £1 as that now represents the 20g rate to Europe and 10g rate for the rest of the world.

The 1p printed 21/01/15; £1 printed 13/01/15; 2nd class 26/02/2015; 1st class Signed For 25/02/15; 1st class Large Signed For - 24/02/15.
Image Image Image Image
Image Image
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

Unless anybody has found any more since yesterday evening ( :roll: ) there have been 23 new Machin definitives this year already:

2nd counter sheet
2nd business sheet
2nd retail booklet

1st business sheet
1st from mixed retail booklet (Alice in Wonderland)

1st Large from retail booklet

1st Signed For
1st Large Signed For

1p counter sheet
2p counter sheet
5p counter sheet
20p counter sheet
£1 counter sheet

£1.33 counter sheet
£1.52 counter sheet
£2.25 counter sheet
£2.45 counter sheet
£3.15 counter sheet
£3.30 counter sheet

1p M14L from Inventive Britain Prestige Book
2p M14L from Inventive Britain Prestige Book
81p M14L from Inventive Britain Prestige Book
97p M14L from Inventive Britain Prestige Book

The most recent 5 are shown here:
Image Image Image
Image Image
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

It seems a shame to mix the ancient and modern, but as almost all the Machin threads have been combined into one, my next few posts will show, instead of the latest new stamps, some older ones used on cover.

Here's a 1984 registered cover with the large £1 and 1p Machin, and 26p Informaton Technology commem making the £1.27 rate of 17p postage and £1.10 registration.

Image
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

This Special Delivery cover has the £1.60 (sadly with corner missing), and 2 x Waddington 4p blue to make the £1.68 rate - 18p postage and £1.50 SD fee.

Image

This cover from January 1998 has the Recorded Delivery fee of 60p paid by a pair of 30p stamps. More dark stamps making it difficult to discern the date, but fortunately this has an early ink-jet mark from Croydon on the reverse.

Image

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

The short-lived Recorded Signed For letter rate stamp issued in November 2009, replaced in April 2011 by Royal Mail Signed For. Used 26 March 2011 - just before replacement, although it remains valid still.

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

Here follows a pair of covers which are a bit of a puzzle, because the postage paid is quite precise, but from the information I have, both appear to be wrong! Unfortunately the customs form on the reverse is not required to be dated, although the postmarks seem clear enough.

1. £4.50 airmail letter to the USA, insured for £200, August 1987. According to the two sources I have, insurance was £1.40 for the first £140 and 20p for the next £140. So the insurance is £1.60. That leaves £2.90 airmail postage. The first 10g was 31p and each additional 10g is 14p.

So 210g = 31p+(20x14p = £2.80) + £1.40 == £4.51 (underpaid by 1p?)

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

2. £5.10 airmail letter to the USA, insured for £500, February 1982.
Insurance is £1 for £100, and 20p for each extra £100, so making £1.80 for £500. Postage was 26p for the first 10g and 14p for each additional 10g.

220g would be 26p+(21x14p = £2.94) + £1.80 == £5.00 (which would be a great solo use!)
230g would be 26p+(22x14p = £3.08) + £1.80 == £5.14 which would make it underpaid by 4p.

Something is obviously wrong with my calculations for both these covers, but I have no idea what it is!

Image

Nonetheless I am very pleased to have acquired them - for a bargain price locally that I could not have even imagined at Europhilex!
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

The first, trial, Machin self-adhesive first class stamp, issued 19 October 1993 in the Newcastle-upon-Tyne area, used in Manchester May 1994, so 99% philatelic.

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by mozzerb »

norvic wrote:Something is obviously wrong with my calculations for both these covers, but I have no idea what it is!

...

Nonetheless I am very pleased to have acquired them - for a bargain price locally that I could not have even imagined at Europhilex!
Ian -- they're both endorsed "Insured air parcel for ..." on the top, so not letter rate? I don't know if anyone has an air parcel rates leaflet for that date lying around, but from what I remember of them they were just huge lookup tables. So the parcel rate is probably "whatever's left over after allowing for the insurance". :)

Air parcel post items aren't exactly common (although many of those you do see are insured?), so that was probably an even better bargain.

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

Thanks Mozerb, I'll come back to that after some more research.

Meanwhile here is a fairly common souvenir, but one which Royal Mail did not disallow - probably because it was not noticed after the Kit Kat postmark had been applied. Delegates to the Philatelic Congress of Great Britain in Hayling Island were given examples of several Machin values overprinted PCGB/HAYLING/ISLAND/1995. One delegate posted them to herself using hotel stationery (don't see that much these days either, at the budget end!)

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by dave222 »

I'm struggling to fill some (quite big) gaps in my Machin collection.

The Machins that form a small part of my collection are proving difficult to source. I collect postally used and this seems to be a problem for the stamp dealers I have been in touch with. Even Stanley Gibbons only stock CTO/ex-FDC used Machins.

Does anyone know of any dealers who specialise in (or indeed just stock!) postally used Machins?

Thanks :)
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by crazyh1 »

Hi,

I have a good volume of postally used which I was planning to eBay at some stage as I collect mint and have ended up with all sorts of used stamps from various auction buys. Anyway, not for the general discussion board, but drop me an email with what sort of things you are looking for and I'll see if I have any to help fill gaps. I'm not a dealer by the way, I just sell off the material I don't collect.

Scott

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by dave222 »

crazyh1 wrote:Hi,

I have a good volume of postally used which I was planning to eBay at some stage as I collect mint and have ended up with all sorts of used stamps from various auction buys. Anyway, not for the general discussion board, but drop me an email with what sort of things you are looking for and I'll see if I have any to help fill gaps. I'm not a dealer by the way, I just sell off the material I don't collect.

Scott
Will do, thanks! Your contact email isn't on your profile - what is it?
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by crazyh1 »

hopefully this makes sense...and keeps the spammers away from me a little. I'll double check my profile, as I thought I did have my email on it.
s c o t t - at - s k i b b y - dot co dot uk

Scott

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

dave222 wrote: Scott
Will do, thanks! Your contact email isn't on your profile - what is it?
With only 10 posts here you can't see all details. If you can't see an email button at the lower left of this post, you haven't been here long enough :)
I think you need 20 or 30.
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by crazyh1 »

That's fair enough Ian. In fairness I don't post that often, but happy to help folk if I can.

Scott

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

I hadn't noticed that you were down on 6 as well, Scott. Those stats and location details aren't visible when writing a reply, only when reading. So you and Dave are both in the same boat!
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by gooner »

dave222 wrote:I'm struggling to fill some (quite big) gaps in my Machin collection.

The Machins that form a small part of my collection are proving difficult to source. I collect postally used and this seems to be a problem for the stamp dealers I have been in touch with. Even Stanley Gibbons only stock CTO/ex-FDC used Machins.

Does anyone know of any dealers who specialise in (or indeed just stock!) postally used Machins?
Dave, I don't list many Used and but if I do - in the detail I say whether they are postally used or not. However if you do a search on my site ....... ( http://www.stamp-collector.co.uk ) ....... using the term "GB VFU" you will see what is there. I suggest you go to the end and work backwards due to the Victorian issues.

I have many, many Machins that are fine used but I don't list them as I just don't have the time (there isn't a big market for them to be frank (pun)).

If, after Scott has exhausted his list and you still have some requirements left -
send me a list to: admin@stamp-collector.co.uk and I will see what I can do.

Going forward, if you are interested in "swapping" used issues you might like to try the specialised forum at the bottom of this post (in my signature line).
Regards .. Dave
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by dave222 »

gooner wrote:
dave222 wrote:I'm struggling to fill some (quite big) gaps in my Machin collection.

The Machins that form a small part of my collection are proving difficult to source. I collect postally used and this seems to be a problem for the stamp dealers I have been in touch with. Even Stanley Gibbons only stock CTO/ex-FDC used Machins.

Does anyone know of any dealers who specialise in (or indeed just stock!) postally used Machins?
Dave, I don't list many Used and but if I do - in the detail I say whether they are postally used or not. However if you do a search on my site ....... ( http://www.stamp-collector.co.uk ) ....... using the term "GB VFU" you will see what is there. I suggest you go to the end and work backwards due to the Victorian issues.

I have many, many Machins that are fine used but I don't list them as I just don't have the time (there isn't a big market for them to be frank (pun)).

If, after Scott has exhausted his list and you still have some requirements left -
send me a list to: admin@stamp-collector.co.uk and I will see what I can do.

Going forward, if you are interested in "swapping" used issues you might like to try the specialised forum at the bottom of this post (in my signature line).
Thanks for the link and email :)

I wonder why there isn't a market for postally used Machins? And why is there a market for CTO/ex-FDC? Seems strange!
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

I think there is a market, in that there would be plenty of collectors willing to buy, if only there was an available supply of off-paper fine used. Many of my customers buy two copies of new definitives - now that may be two collectors getting together, but I'll bet some are buying so that they can have one used.

Of course most of the current purchases are non-soakable security stamps, of which I have many on cover. But that's mostly the domestic NVIs; airmail rates are much more difficult. Even within the domestic scene there are scarcities. The counter sheet stamps are found in much lower numbers than booklet stamps.
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by gooner »

Norvic is quite right - there is a "buyers" market for used stamps either ex-FDC or postally used.

However, it is tiny in comparison to that for mint stamps which is why many dealers don't bother listing (or indeed stocking). Part of the reason for this is that many collectors "swap" used but "buy" mint. Don't ask me why.

It maybe a a carry on of the old "swap" system, where a book of (usually) used stamps were sent around to collectors, who took what they wanted and either paid the price or replaced with one of their own of a similar value.

I am generally a collector, who sells his duplicates to cover the cost of buying new, rather than a (true) dealer so I can't quite bring myself to throw away used stamps.

I keep used Machins (with the intention of listing them) but used Commemoratives I pack up for donation to a school stamp club.
Last edited by GlenStephens on 21 Sep 2015 01:43, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added paragraphs and spacing, which makes wordy posts far easier to read on Bulletin Boards!
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by Malaya »

My collection is far from complete but I thought I could have some fun trying to arrange them according to the visible region of the electromagnetic spectrum from ultraviolet to infrared:
Image
They are not in any catalogue order and combine pre-decimal, decimal and regional issues. I have tried to project three main axes of colour theory (hue, saturation and lightness) onto the two-dimensional stock sheets, such that any two horizontally or vertically adjacent stamps are the closest available gradation in one or more of those axes. It also tries to accommodate composite colour (e.g. brown) along a 'fourth axis' if you like.

I don't know of any other series having such fine nuances of colour.

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by lesbootman »

In the mail at work this morning I spotted something I've not seen before on an item of junk/advertising mail. A 2nd class blue Machin imprint appears to have been printed direct onto the envelope complete with simulated perforations and wavy line cancel.

It has a flat "matt" finish and no security markings.

I've seen "pseudo" stamp designs on junk mail in the past but never a reproduction of a Machin design.

Image

Image
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by Malaya »

lesbootman, it seems that they very kindly provided the outline of the perforations along which the stamp can be cut out by scissors, since it is now stuck even tighter to the envelope than the sticker types. And it looks like a new printing method for stamps - colour laserjet? The new age stamp has arrived :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by Dave.mbe »

lesbootman wrote:
I've seen "pseudo" stamp designs on junk mail in the past but never a reproduction of a Machin design.

Image

Image
Although this is obviously 'junk mail' and essentially worthless, I, for one, would really like to have a cover with this preprinted indicia as it would become a part of "The Complete Machin Collection". The cover that you show is probably not ideal at 10"x7", and as an unaddressed, window envelope, but who can say what tomorrow's post will bring.

Norvic / Gooner; you won't get rich on this, but I sense an opportunity! :D :D
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by Malaya »

Perhaps it could even be part of an exhibit of Machin 'forgeries'.

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by Dave.mbe »

dave222 wrote: Even Stanley Gibbons only stock CTO/ex-FDC used Machins.

I wonder why there isn't a market for postally used Machins? And why is there a market for CTO/ex-FDC? Seems strange!
In answer to your question about a market for 'ex-FDC' used (definitives, ie Machins at least); these items actually differ from those issued and available at philatelic counters.

Self-adhesive definitives produced for FDC application, are printed in coil format, (sideways print as opposed to normal upright print), for easier application to the cover. We are told that they are not available for sale and therefore only available as 'postally' used items.

I wouldn't bother looking through kiloware, but you might give those FDC's a second look... (with the aid of a strong magnifying glass!!)
Dave

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by honza »

Ahoj everyone!

I was just sorting some items for ebay when I came across this municipal overprint on a pre-decimal Machin on its original receipt. The requirement of a 2d stamp on receipts ended in early 1971 so such municipal overprints are much less common on Machins than on Wildings.

Image

2d Machin on Carlisle Corporation Municipal Rates receipt 1970

Image

Carlisle Corporation Municipal Rates receipt 1970 with 2d Machin.

Cheers,

Honza

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by WEIRD AL »

Image

Are these just a case of ink lifting off the "Band"area & is it common :?:

Thanks.

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

lesbootman wrote:In the mail at work this morning I spotted something I've not seen before on an item of junk/advertising mail. A 2nd class blue Machin imprint appears to have been printed direct onto the envelope complete with simulated perforations and wavy line cancel.

It has a flat "matt" finish and no security markings.

I've seen "pseudo" stamp designs on junk mail in the past but never a reproduction of a Machin design.

Image

Image
I mentioned this trial on my blog in September. (I thought I had mentioned it here, but can't find it.) As you will understand, its designed to make the junk more attractive to recipients as it will appear to be stamped. Both the Machin and an Alice in Wonderland 2nd class design are in use - RM owns the copyright in both.

Image

When I discussed it with RM managers at Stampex they were concerned about ensuring proper print quality of 'their' image - and obviously these PPIs can only be printed on white, not manilla, envelopes.

May I use your images to illustrate my blog, please - they are the first I have seen.
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

WEIRD AL wrote:Image

Are these just a case of ink lifting off the "Band"area & is it common :?:

Thanks.
The phosphor band is in the centre, so the ink isn't 'lifted off', it's actually stronger there (the phosphor ink is over the colour ink). Used & soaked stamps are always subject to some degradation but these seem worse than normal!
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by Malaya »

Out of curiosity, I simulated (using this web tool) what the rainbow colours of Machins would look like to people with various forms of colour blindness.

Normal vision:
Image

Protanopia (red-blind):
Image

Deuteranopia (green-blind, no dimming effect compared to red-blind):
Image

Tritanopia (blue-blind, very rare):
Image

Achromatomaly (poor colour discrimination):
Image

There are also intermediate conditions of colour blindness not shown here. My favourite form of colour blindness is achromatomaly, which makes things look like vintage photos.

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

Examples of Post and Go Machin stamps from the only two Royal Mail enquiry offices to print the location on the stamp, Bradford North and Crewe.

The machines are type C, though designated M002 and M003. The printing 2GB15 indicates printed in the UK in February 2015.

Image
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

The full list of Machin Security Definitives issued in 2015 - 47 new stamps, which are all MA15 or M15L apart from some early M14L-coded stamps.

The final Machin Security Stamps have been added to our Checklist/Catalogue, If you don't already have a copy of this, please use this link, so that we can tell you about future updates. The list excludes the following Appendices which may also be useful

Machins FDC List, which is a list of security issues in chronological order
Machins Cross-ref, being the reverse cross-reference of SG Concise numbers to our own.

These are now available for you to download at http://www.norphil.co.uk/reference/

2nd counter sheet
2nd business sheet
2nd from retail booklet
2nd coil (probably of 10,000) Very few examples reported so far
2nd Large counter sheet
2nd Large business sheet
2nd Large from retail booklet

1st red counter sheet
1st red business sheet
1st from retail booklet of 12
1st from retail booklet of 6
1st from mixed retail booklet (Alice in Wonderland or Comedy Greats)

1st amethyst purple miniature sheet (REIGM)
1st amethyst purple counter sheet (REIGN)
1st amethyst purple retail booklet of 6 (REIGS)
1st amethyst purple mixed retail booklet (REIGC)

1st Large counter sheet
1st Large business sheet
1st Large from retail booklet
Special Delivery 100g
1st Signed For
1st Large Signed For

1p counter sheet
2p counter sheet
5p counter sheet
10p counter sheet
20p counter sheet
£1 counter sheet

New Tariff- 24 March
£1.33 counter sheet
£1.52 counter sheet
£2.25 counter sheet
£2.45 counter sheet
£3.15 counter sheet
£3.30 counter sheet

Ordinary Gum
2nd MPIL M15L from Star Wars Prestige Book
1st MPIL M15L from Star Wars Prestige Book
1p M14L from Inventive Britain Prestige Book
1p M15L from Great War 2015 Prestige Book
2p M14L from Inventive Britain Prestige Book
5p M15L from Great War 2015 Prestige Book
ditto, from Battle of Waterloo Prestige Book (shade)
10p M15L from Battle of Waterloo Prestige Book
50p M15L from Battle of Waterloo Prestige Book
81p M14L from Inventive Britain Prestige Book
97p M14L from Inventive Britain Prestige Book
£1 M15L from Battle of Waterloo Prestige Book
£1.33 M15L from Great War 2015 Prestige Book


The first prestige stamp book in 2016 will not be issued until February, but I understand that that will not contain Machin definitives, so when will the earliest M16L stamps appear? I hope that the early part of next year will also see an increase in supplies of some of the M15L stamps, as many PO branches are still using stocks from earlier years, back to 2012 in some cases. The £2 must be due for another reprint soon as well.
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Help identifying GB self adhesive 2nd class machin perf va

Post by Steve-2E0TVR »

Hi, this is my first proper post on here, so please go easy. I currently collect GB machins to the Stanley Gibbons concise catalogue, with the exception of security stamps. These I collect by date and source codes.

I am looking to expand my collection to a more specialised one. I thought I would have a go at sorting out my 1998 to 2006 self adhesive booklet stamps (SG.2039 and SG.2040) by source and printer.

I have found some information on the 1st class flame red stamps from the Adminware website, showing position of the Queens diadem and overall size of the image. Does this translate to the 1st class gold and 2nd class blue issues?

I am currently sorting out the 2nd class blue issues and have identified 7 different perf varieties, I think. I have taken pictures of these with a USB microscope and hope that somebody can help identify them.

I am hoping to purchase the famous Deegam handbook in the new year. The numbers correspond to the stamps I have and are all of the top left corner. I think number 3 is a Questa printing as it has a 5mm phosphor band on it. Any information would be helpful and many thanks.

Image

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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

Example of solo-use £1.52 Machin, issued 24 March 2015. Pays the 100g letter rate to Europe, this cover to Belarus 10-12-2015 with Minsk backstamps 22.12.15.

Image
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Re: Share, discuss, or query, the GB MACHIN HEAD stamps/cove

Post by norvic »

News for collectors of mint stamps only. The long-'awaited' (first mentioned June 2014) change to self-adhesive backing paper has arrived with the 1 December printing of 2nd class Business Sheets.

The ROYAL MAIL legend, similar to that on Post and Go Faststamps is repeated on the backing paper, under the silicone and of course behind the stamps. In a further measure to reduce the number of forgeries on the market (at least 5 different 1st class red postal forgeries exist) this will extend to all other definitives and probably to self-adhesive special stamps as well.

Image Image

Stamp printing expert Glenn Morgan, commenting on the news in my blog, wrote in response to claims that Royal Mail was 'milking the collector again':
This feature is not there for Joe Public to spot, but it is an essential part of security when bringing a case to court by the very investigators that you write about, who have Royal Mail support by its introduction of such features.

If all genuine 2017 Machin stamps in all formats bear a year code of xx17 (I chose 2017 as the development may take time to implement fully during 2016) and all Machin stamps have the new security backing paper it will give the juror the ability to know "beyond all reasonable doubt" that any dubious stamps that form part of the case have to be forgeries, as they will not bear correctly printed features. A conviction will follow.

It is impossible to print under the new stamps without first removing every stamp from the backing paper, printing the repeat Royal Mail wording across the entire surface BELOW the silicone layer, then putting the stamps back on the sheets in their original positions. Yes, a fraudster may print in grey up to the edge of the stamps and on top of the silicone layer, but the white backing paper under the stamps would make them instantly recognisable as forgeries when removed from the sheet.

I also think that collectors believe that they are the sole reason that Royal Mail exists. This new development is not on a stamp, so most will ignore, or not even notice, the change. Those who already buy booklets, cylinder blocks or year code changes will continue to do so, with little or no extra cost. Those who want examples need only buy a marginal single and remove the marginal matrix to reveal enough of the repeat wording. It's like Post and Go - you buy what you want and ignore the rest.

Incidentally, this development is not unique to Great Britain, as Canada Post introduced it to the world through Tullis Russell Coaters (TRC) in 2012, where there has not been the "Outraged of Tunbridge Wells" type comments about its introduction, despite the feature only being visible if you remove the stamp. Canada has the repeat wording "CANADA" on the reverse of the stamps under the PSA gum and not on the backing paper, but the idea is the same. This is probably done differently as they do not have a matrix area surrounding each stamp, which tend to butt-up to its neighbour.

Royal Mail has chosen to have its PSA paper supplier, also TRC, print under the silicone layer of the release paper, making it impossible to forge correctly. Both the British and Canadian methods are jointly marketed by TRC under the brand name of "In-Print" and they describe their product as a "simple, practical and cost effective way of verification". On that basis Royal Mail has not spent "shed loads of money" on its introduction, as implied by your correspondent.

Forgery helps fund criminal activity - fact - and we should be supportive of any development that helps reduce crime of any kind and not be quite so cynical.
GLENN MORGAN https://www.stampprinters.info
For an example of the reverse-printing on Canadian stamps see Tullis Russel Coating blog.
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