Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by doug2222usa »

Whitney's postmark catalog lists 6 or 8 different "London F.S."
(maritime) markings from the first half of the 20th Century,
but they do not appear to be ship-specific.

Nor does Whitney indicate what "F.S." means. :roll:

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted o

Post by nigelc »

I believe it's a London Post Office marking for "Foreign Section".
Nigel

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by Ormond »

According to Hosking, that particular LONDON FS cancel was in use 1921-33, with varied date dies.

What those variations are I wouldn't know.

The cancel is rated as AA (very common).

Nice postcard 8)

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by norvic »

plsllvn wrote:Anyone know if the London FS cancel would originate from the RMS Majestic?
Thanks
Paul
Paquebot Postmarks were not applied on board ship. Some ships applied 'Posted on Board' cachets, some had similar postmarks.
Last edited by norvic on 21 Jan 2010 20:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by Ormond »

Paquebot cancels were applied at port of arrival.

Other postmarks could be and often were applied onboard ships.

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by norvic »

Thanks Ormond, I have edited my post to say what I really meant!
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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by Ormond »

Here is a postal packing slip which was postmarked on board a ship.

Image

Mr. Woody was the mail clerk on the Titanic's maiden and fateful voyage. When the ship sank he grabbed the mail pouch and strapped it to his body. He was subsequently found dead on an iceberg with the mail pouch on him.

This item was in The Günther Heyd Disaster Mail Collection sold by Harmers in 2002.

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by DJM »

Not on cover and not the best cancel - but i think you get the idea....

8)

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by doug2222usa »

Here is a rather wordy example of a 1967 "Posted On Board"
cancellation:

"Posted On Board / MS Kongsholm Swedish-American Line"
and "Ship + South Seas Cruise".

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Image

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by tpo_seapost_web »

A contact pointed out your site because of the Paquebot markings

On browsing through I noticed some Royal Naval Mail markings such as 'POST OFFICE / MARITIME MAIL'.

This is known as a Robertson (London) N48 and was applied in London.

Marks used on Royal Naval Mails are listed by Robertson under London as London acted as the collection point for letters posted on board HM Ships. Mail from a ship was bagged on board and sent directly to London from the port of arrival for assessment of rates - which were often privileged due to the sender being on Active Military Service.
The mark shown ( London Royal Naval Mail marking N48) is known in both red and black ink and was in use mostly between 1943 and 1950 although some examples are known from as late as 1961.

BTW: Alan W Robertson studied a lot of British maritime mail and published his findings in a large volume published about 1955. He listed the markings by British city as relevant and assigned numbers to them. Hence the British maritime marks are known by their Robertson reference number.
His book is: Robertson, AW: A History of the Ship Letters of the British Isles; The Author, Ranworth, 1955
And the data has been extended and updated by: Tabeart, C: Robertson Revisited, James Bendon, Ltd., Limassol, 1997

The TPO and Seapost Society has an Overview of Royal Naval Mail cancels.
and on its welcome site page you'll see we have a lot of info about paquebot marks too!

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by doug2222usa »

A hearty welcome from StampBoards member #1, other than
Glen, that is. We l-o-v-e well-informed specialists. :wink:

I'll post some TPOs when I find them.

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by tpo_seapost_web »

This is a useful source for Paquebot information

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by norvic »

Ormond wrote:Here is a postal packing slip which was postmarked on board a ship.

Image

Mr. Woody was the mail clerk on the Titanic's maiden and fateful voyage. When the ship sank he grabbed the mail pouch and strapped it to his body. He was subsequently found dead on an iceberg with the mail pouch on him.

This item was in The Günther Heyd Disaster Mail Collection sold by Harmers in 2002.
Clarification on the Titanic's postal operations, courtesy of the Royal Mail Treasures of the Archive prestige booklet with material and comment from the British Postal Museum and Archive.
On board the ship was a Sea Post Office, with five postal workers sorting mail, two of them British ( J R Jago Smith and James B Wilkinson), three American. All died, together with 1,512 others. None of the 3,366 bags of letters, nor any of the 763 parcels was salvaged. Also lost were the Transatlantic Sea Post Office cancellers used for mail posted on the Titanic.
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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by tpo_seapost_web »

The TRANSATLANTIC POST OFFICE mark was issued to SEA POST OFFICES on board White Star Line and United States Lines ships operating between UK and the USA from 1908 to 1914.

More inforrmation is available online from the this web address
http://www.tpo-seapost.org.uk/tpo2/spgbxatlantic.html

and this one http://www.tpo-seapost.org.uk/tpo2/spus.html

The web pages include sources for further reading.

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by jwk »

The clerk on board seems to have gone a little "overboard" with his stamping this cover!
Just in case you missed it : it was posted on board the "Canberra". That is "Canberra" okay? "Canberra" yes. C A N B E R R A :mrgreen:

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by skilo54 »

Here is one that I found and would like to share with y'all :)

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by manfaefife »

A manufactured Paquebot cover, but inexpensive.

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by Lakatoi 4 »

Here's one, an almost fully SON Plymouth 1910 cancel on a KEVII 1d.:

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by adam78 »

A nice selection of GV stamps on piece with the POST OFFICE MARITIME MAIL dumb cancel.

(Image deleted by inactive member or photobucket - POMaritimeMail.jpg)

Almost look CTO...

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by Yobo »

A letter posted on a United Fruit ship.

Image

Posted to the United States from Honduras with American stamps since the ship was registered in the United States.

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by doug2222usa »

But only 1½c postage? Normal rate would have been 3c,
unless an unsealed Christmas card, or advertising, or a
3rd or 4th class item. Interesting.

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by Yobo »

doug2222usa wrote:But only 1½c postage? Normal rate would have been 3c,
unless an unsealed Christmas card, or advertising, or a
3rd or 4th class item. Interesting.
Never realized this. I took a quick look in "The History, Ships & Cancellations of the Great White Fleet", but couldn't find any mentioning of a different postal rate for the United Fruit ships. Can the explanation be a different rate since it did not originate in the United States?

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by norvic »

doug2222usa wrote:But only 1½c postage? Normal rate would have been 3c,
unless an unsealed Christmas card, or advertising, or a
3rd or 4th class item. Interesting.
My recollection is that most of these purely philatelic items (whether British or American) are processed using the lowest possible postage rate, since there is no urgency, the originator having no idea when or where the item is going to be posted nor when it will be received.
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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by Flying Tiger »

Here is my maritime cover contribution

(Image deleted by inactive member or photobucket - SteamerCover.jpg)
Regards, Jay

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by MargoZ »

Contributors to this thread may be interested in the fact that Royal Mail have announced the decision to discontinue the paquebot system:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=22658
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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by stallzer »

1953 Great Britain

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by TKL »

I am trying to identify the postal markings on the postcard listed below, any help would be most appreciated..

I can make out that the postcard was written on the 19th June and cancelled at Queenstown 27 June 1906 - arriving in Sutton on the 28th June 1906

What do the other markings mean?

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by tpo_seapost_web »

tkl wrote:I am trying to identify the postal markings on the postcard listed below, any help would be most appreciated..

Image
The card was posted on board ship, but underpaid. When sorted in the sea post office on board the liner the taxe mark 'SPO / T / 5' was applied to indicate that additional postage was due. The index '5' is associated with the sea post office on board the 'Oceanic'. The card was landed at Queenstown (Ireland) where the stamp was cancelled with the local Queenstown Paquebot mark. It was then most likely sorted on board the Dublin / Queenstown TPO (travelling post office) or in Dublin itself where the '1 d/"' hand stamp was applied to indicate the postage due of 1 penny. The card would then have been bagged for the London bound mail where it would have been finally resorted for Sutton (in the county of Surrey).

This card has very nice marks. A nice find!

Transatlantic Sea Post Offices are discussed in 'Seaposts of the USA' by Roger Hosking. See this link for more info.

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by TKL »

tpo_seapost_web wrote: This card has very nice marks. A nice find!
Wow! - thank you for such a quick response and detailed analysis of the above postcard. It is away from my normal collecting areas, but nevertheless it has fuelled an interest in this area. I will need to consider as to whether to expand my collecting to include 'Paquebot' mail as well!!!

I have a further few queries which hopefully could be explained:

1. From where do you consider the postcard was originally sent - i.e. onboard the liner from Liverpool travelling to the USA and a mail drop made at Queenstown? The written message reads 'Queenstown June 19th Love from Father'), or on the return journey from the USA and the postcard dropped off at Queenstown?

2. The significance of the blue crayon mark '1 / 5' and where it was most probably applied and why?
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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by tpo_seapost_web »

tkl wrote:
tpo_seapost_web wrote: This card has very nice marks. A nice find!
I have a further few queries which hopefully could be explained:

1. From where do you consider the postcard was originally sent - i.e. onboard the liner from Liverpool travelling to the USA and a mail drop made at Queenstown? The written message reads 'Queenstown June 19th Love from Father'), or on the return journey from the USA and the postcard dropped off at Queenstown?

2. The significance of the blue crayon mark '1 / 5' and where it was most probably applied and why?
1. I didn't look at the dates properly earlier. One would need to look at the shipping section of The Times online archive or that of the New York Times to check sailing schedules in this period. Sadly, both are now chargeable web sites. However, The Times archive can be accessed from Public Libraries for free in the UK and that may apply to public libraries in other countries. However, being written at Queenstown on the 19th and postmarked there on the 27th doesn't give much opportunity for the card to have been carried as far as New York and then back. But it is strongly believed that mail from British ships coming into New York was handed over by the Purser to his opposite number on the returning next ship (no involvement of the US postal authorities). So, if the timings were right and the passages were very quick then it may be possible in 8 days in June. I.e. written OFF Queenstown on the way to the USA. Needs research of the actual arrival and departure times of White Star ships at New York. In that case the card would not have returned on the Oceanic. [I do not think it would have languished 8 days in Queenstown or Dublin!]

2. the 1/5 in crayon is simply the deficiency marking indicating 1 single rate as the numerator of a fraction with the deficiency of 5 centimes as the denominator. The card was 1 half penny short, equivalent to 5 centimes at the time when the GB UPU letter rate was tuppence ha'penny, equivalent to 25 centimes. The UPU GB postcard rate was one penny. (The half penny rate paid was for GB inland postcards). Paquebot mail had to be paid at international rates at this time.

The fraction was applied at the same time as the 'SPO / T 5' mark - ie in the sea post office. On receipt in the TPO or at Dublin on return the deficiency of 5 centimes was doubled to 10 centimes which in GB was equivalent to 1 penny and the Dublin 1d/" mark was applied.

A good explanation of this handling of short paid mail can be found in Ken Snelson's book UK Tax Marks for International Mail 1875-2000 or in an article by Michael Furfie in the December 1997 edition of the Postage Due Mail Study Group Journal. There are probably other books too :-)

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by TKL »

Thank you for the additional information on the above postcard, I will certainly need to look at the suggested publications.
tkl - Ukraine Provisional Issues 1992/95 - 49,450 provisional covers & still rising......

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by tpo_seapost_web »

tkl wrote:Thank you for the additional information on the above postcard, I will certainly need to look at the suggested publications.
More on shipping schedules and where the marks were applied:

I spent some time today looking at the Times Archive Online (search for "shipping" in the advertising and business sections).

I'm beginning to think that all the sea post office marks were applied on the Oceanic between New York and Queenstown!

From The Times 22nd June 1906: OCEANIC dep New York 6:30pm Wednesday June 20th
From The Times 26th June 1906: Mail ex USA due Queenstown tomorrow ie June 27th.
From The Times 28th June 1906: OCEANIC ex NEW YORK passed South Stack 27th June. South Stack Lighthouse is off Anglesea (North Wales, en route from Queenstown to Liverpool).

The annotation 19th June ... Queenstown is proving problematic.
Typically ships departing Liverpool day x call at Queenstown day x+1.
I can't find anything bound for New York that fits, viz.:
TEUTONIC, White Star, dep Liverpool wednesday 13th June 1906 (from The Times 12th June)
CEDRIC, White Star, dep Liverpool 15th June (from The Times 15th June)
ETRURIA, Cunard, dep Liverpool 16th June (from The Times 16th June)
Nothing is listed as departing for New York on Monday 18th June 1906.

I can't confirm arrival times for any of the above, but the Teutonic should have arrived around 19th June in New York. That would allow time for the card, written outbound, to have been sent in the purser's bag to the OCEANIC. But there's no way I can confirm that without arrival dates and times.

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by TKL »

tpo_seapost_web wrote: The annotation 19th June ... Queenstown is proving problematic.
Oops!.... sorry , I had misread the written date as June 19th instead of - 'JUNE 1906'

Image

Hopefully, the sailing route may prove easier to establish with this revised June 1906 date?
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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by tpo_seapost_web »

tkl wrote:
tpo_seapost_web wrote: The annotation 19th June ... Queenstown is proving problematic.
Oops!.... sorry , I had misread the written date as June 19th instead of - 'JUNE 1906'

Image

Hopefully, the sailing route may prove easier to establish with this revised June 1906 date?
That makes it a lot easier! It was most likely written on the UK bound run [of the Oceanic, as above] when approaching Queenstown and mailed just before the box was cleared prior to bagging the final mail. And you now have the Oceanic's sailing dates to go with it.

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by TKL »

tpo_seapost_web - a big thank you for unravelling the markings and route of the post card mentioned above.

I would suggest that readers of this thread who share an interest in 'Paquebot' mails, to visit the following website: http://www.tpo-seapost.org.uk/tpo2/seapostintro.html.

The contents are well laid out and are user friendly with a wealth of information and examples of covers and postal markings.

For me, I am pleased to have had such a positive response to my query, and finally to 'Stampboards' for bringing philatelists together in their respective fields
tkl - Ukraine Provisional Issues 1992/95 - 49,450 provisional covers & still rising......

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by stallzer »

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by tpo_seapost_web »

adam78 wrote:A nice selection of GV stamps on piece with the POST OFFICE MARITIME MAIL dumb cancel.

Almost look CTO...
Original Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010

Those look like real cancels applied to letters from British Navy ships. For (a bit) more information see this link
http://www.tpo-seapost.org.uk/tpo2/spmaritimemail.html

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by TKL »

Looking through my box of post cards, I came across the following card which was sent from Pernambuco, Brazil on the 14th November 1904 arriving in the UK on the 28th November 1904

I was intrigued by the manuscript annotation at the top left of card, which looks as the card was sent via a sailing ship.....Unfortunately, I cannot make out the name of the vessel ?

I was hoping that a member could help with the identification of the ship and possibly the route the card travelled before arriving in the UK?

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by manfaefife »

I was checking over some old approval pages for sticking on ebay, and this stamp from Trinidad caught my attention, though feint, after scanning you can clearly make out PAQUEBOT, almost a SOTN cancel at that

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Probably wont add any value to the stamp but its attractive nevertheless
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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by joelk »

Here is one that I could find. UK stamp with a Belgian cancel.

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by AFCBGeorge »

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stallzer
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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by stallzer »

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litphil
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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by litphil »

Lithuania stamp with a Hawaii cancel (1935). Postal Service didn't realize this 1922 issue stamp was not valid at the time.

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http://lithuanianphilately.com - always looking for early covers from Lithuania

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cyber
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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by cyber »

Two French mailboat markings "YOKOHAMA A MARSEILLE" (Webb Type I) on Hong Kong:

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by Marcel »

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The back cover shows the message of the sender: "Please cancel clearly, postmark required by a collector"
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GBStamps
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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by GBStamps »

Thought this might be of some interest - falls broadly in to this category!

Postmark is CAIRO, Illinois.

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Tom Maxwell

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by Kloster »

Found at a fleamarked for a few pennies :)

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by tpo_seapost_web »

Kloster wrote:Found at a fleamarked for a few pennies :)

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Kloster
Nice strike of what looks like Hosking 2859

The latest Paquebot book lists seven Port Said paquebot marks in all.

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by Kloster »

A better scan of the cancel.

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Re: Share your 'Paquebot' posted on board cancels and covers

Post by neopanax »

Perhaps this doesn't belong here, but here goes. An acquaintance shared this cover. Can anyone explain what the stamp "BY FAST BRITISH MAIL BOAT" means? Where was the handstamp applied? Was it a private or postal marking? Why specify a British mail boat?

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