Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

johnrcrow · Post by **johnrcrow** » 10 Feb 2015 18:19

Thank you europhil.

1944 BACK. Letter is entire with 2 pages of pencilled writing.

Enhanced as best I can in 2nd pic. Looks like the district in Vienna was rubbed out?

Enhanced

johnrcrow · Post by **johnrcrow** » 10 Feb 2015 18:32

After sleeping on it, I think it best to have a new thread, similar to this one, examining my collection from Germany (Empire) 1923 to 1945. This will be less confusing to readers.

It will fit in with other excellent thread in Stampboards showing the issues but will deal with the Michel values and variants (as here). This will encourage the `show and tell´ for other. I can cross reference the descriptions to other thread mentioned.

The Feldpost area is large and wide ranging and deserves a separate thread. Maybe best if this is definitely a show and tell thread.

Any useful references to Feldpost are welcome.

John

bear0001 · Post by **bear0001** » 13 Feb 2015 08:56

John ;
Let me know when you start the Fiedpost thread !

bear0001
If you build , they will come !

jadrake · Post by **jadrake** » 16 Feb 2015 08:23

Ok, I finally started going through my Basket Weaves + Got a nice lot of HT/Pe1 in the mail so I found some interesting finds / should help make conclusions as well as a few I'd like to confirm....

I won't show many HT or Pe1 flaws because these are pretty much known and we have discussed previously.

Mi 324 A P Pe3 - 2nd and 3nd sprung joined in dark olive-yellow (this will be important in a second)

Mi 324 A P Pe1 - now why this is important is this is the blackish-olive-yellow, thus proving that the Pe flaws appear for shades in the sheets

Mi 324 A P HT - again in the blackish-olive-yellow shade which is lighter than the dark-olive-yellow

jadrake · Post by **jadrake** » 16 Feb 2015 08:29

Here we have

Mi 314 A P Pe3 in blue-green

And again to show that the flaws exist across shades I have Pe1 present in bright blue-green shade (I actually have another Pe1 I marked as blue-green but it is right on the border between bright and non-bright green so I won't show it for now)

jadrake · Post by **jadrake** » 16 Feb 2015 08:35

Another Pe3 this time with

Mi 317 A P Pe3 - bright lilac red

Now this is a mystery for me.... it is

Mi 319 B P but if you look below the bottom of the "2" in the "20" it almost looks like the weaves are joined? It could just be an optical illusion though...
(EDIT: It appears many exhibit this behavior so there may be nothing here... comments welcome)

Mi 319 A P Pe3 - Another one

I notice some Pe3 look like there is a "blob" of ink joining the two. Others are a gentle touching.... is there any known reason behind this?

jadrake · Post by **jadrake** » 16 Feb 2015 08:38

ok, moving on....

Mi 321 B P Pe8

I believe this is the Pe8 - there might be a "faint" fourth line in the top-left post horn .... I welcome commentary.

If someone disagrees with any of these please bring it to my attention. My cost basis on most of the non-HT/Pe1 stamps is $0.03US so it is of little consequence if I have a $0.30 or a $3.00 stamp....

jadrake · Post by **jadrake** » 16 Feb 2015 08:43

More possible Pe8s

Mi 322 A P Pe8 ?

Mi 323a P Pe8 (this one I am not sure on) - it is also either dark ocher-brown or ocher-brown (I need more samples to verify - but I have recorded it as "ocher-brown" in my notes/database)

Now, when I went through my hundred or so stamps, I wasn't looking for Pe5, Pe6 or Pe2 or Pe8 (the ones above were purely random as a "nice" copy to put in my album) so I will have to back through my hundred or so copies again.

johnrcrow · Post by **johnrcrow** » 16 Feb 2015 13:36

Excellent posts jadrake and resulted in good hunting.

I am up at 2.49 am for a hot drink with after effects of flu, I cough cough cough and cannot sleep. One tiny comment is to label your scans a, b c or 1. 2. 3. etc. and maybe with initial so J a. Jb. J 1. J2. This means that ones can comment specifically with the easy reference and also that the scans do not have similar headings to others.

I suggest that you look in detail at any HT flaws as small differences in the break can make them ST. For this I like to get them scanned and look at high magnification on computer. Shades are as always a problem. You seem to have mint copies so it should be easier to get more accurate (less faded) colour renditions.

I will look up that area (under the 2 join). You notice that the baskets vary greatly in thickness of the lines and hence clarity of design. The fuzzy ones are common and they do tend to join in various non-flaw recognised areas.

For PE 3 the blob vs the district line. I tend to favour the distinct line as a true PE3. However, I think it is a factor involving the different inking of the plates. I will also try and dig out where on the plates the flaws have been identified (for all flaws).

I do have the INFLA Berlin book on the basket flaws but it is in German and I need to painfully translate this. There is a good chunk on PE8 and maybe I can start with this to clear up the area (when are three lines actually three)?

Back to bed, oh maybe not---dogs disturbed by a damn mouse that cat brought in!!

John Figure 1. Selected PE 3 showing differences in flaw.

John

jadrake · Post by **jadrake** » 16 Feb 2015 16:07

Does anyone know if Pe8 (3 lines in top left posthorn instead of 4) can occur on Rotary Press stamps? I have two shades of 20 Mrd M stamps showing this behavior (out of probably 30 stamps). I am in the process of dealing with them, but this seems odd to me since all the other anomalies like Pe1, HT etc. are on Flat Plate Printing only.

jadrake · Post by **jadrake** » 17 Feb 2015 15:15

Ok, So I had submitted the Mi 323a A P as a Pe8 (top right horn with 3 slashes). After continued examination I am going to state is it NOT a Pe8

Here is the original image

(JD) Mi 323a A P

Here is the top-left corner with red lines showing where I think the lines are. As you can see the top most line is nothing more than a dot, but it is there (sort of)

However, the reason why I had this flagged as Pe8 was because I was mistakenly using the bottom right horn from one of the diagrams on page 1 of this thread. When I do look in the lower right horn however I see 3 and only 3 dashes as seen here:

Is this the description for PP18 / PE13? I have not been able to find a description for this flaw yet. The diagram on page 1 circles this area, but there is no description of the flaw beyond that.

This stamp is a flat-plate printing btw (in case there is some confusion with my previous inquiry - which I am still wondering about)

-Jason

johnrcrow · Post by **johnrcrow** » 17 Feb 2015 21:08

Hi jadrake. You have been busy again, well done.

The PE8 is only associated with top left post horn according to INFLA Berlin group. I would say that three lines only is allowable but variations such as tiny dot plus three lines etc., ar interesting.

I am still trying to find the article where the PE system was revised into one using PP where there were at least 24 flaws recognised (including the PE) and this covers some areas that interest you. I have hard copy somewhere but at the moment it eludes me. This is important since it widens the scope of examination and as I said answers some of the inevitable queries after people observe aberrations.

I repeat there figure below showing the revised system and hope I find details soon. I did get this off the web and for the life of me I cannot repeat the process. Anyone with the address please tell.

John

Chris55 · Post by **Chris55** » 22 Feb 2015 01:38

Hi John,
You possibly got that from the old INFLA-Berlin site. Apparently there used to be a link "Infos zum Rosettenmuster". This led to an article (by Harald Mürmann??) which included the plate errors.

I found a reference to this on a German forum but the post was from 2010.

However I presume this article was taken down in 2011 when INFLA-Books published Band 67: Deutsches Reich. Die Rosettenausgabe 1923, Mi-Nrn. 313-330 von Harald Mürmann

This had been intended as a revision of Band 17: Handbuch der Rosetten-Ausgabe 1923 by Dr. Wilfried Kiefner - which I believe you have.

After 6 years work and so many new Plate errors being found this "revision" turned into a new 500 page (loose-leaf DinA4) band which itself has since received a supplement!!

And before you ask - no I dont have a copy

It costs 82 EUR (including the new supplement)

Cheers,
Chris

johnrcrow · Post by **johnrcrow** » 22 Feb 2015 09:59

Chris. Thank you.

Now that is excellent information.

I suppose the more one looks the more one sees and the more minute errors crop up.

Cataloguing such flaws can, in the end, be a singular activity where the interest gets to a lesser and lesser audience. I am sure that Glen (Stampboards owner) would see the seeking out of the not seen by-eye only, tiny aberrations as less than interesting. Maybe it would be interesting though if a German group was let loose on the Heads and Roos to increase the number of flaws (I jokingly add).

Of course we are after constancy in errors and that requires a great deal of material to be looked at as well as patient recording of data to match historic data on plates.

I am a Krone /Adler man and here we see the similar extensive studies though the information on these is easier to come by, but the flaws keep on coming!

I shall see whether the tome mentioned is available but of my German is cruelly poor so I hope there are lots of illustrations.

John

maptrekker · Post by **maptrekker** » 22 Feb 2015 10:38

Here is PP24 (PE2) on Mi 313 A P. It can readily be identified as position 99 by the lower margin number. I have 4 basket lids with the lower margin indicating position 99 and they all show PP24 (PE2). I think this is good evidence of at least one position where this plate flaw occurs.

There is also a plate number which indicates this was from plate 8 -- which may or may not be important.

Here is Mi 317 A P with PP24 (PE2) in position 94. Another possible plate position for this plate flaw. It is also HAN H5687.23 which may or may not be important.

PP23 (PE1) can also be seen at position 93 -- but this is already known from the Michel Catalogue.

Chris55 · Post by **Chris55** » 22 Feb 2015 10:53

Hi John,
If you do get a copy I can help with translations when needed

However nearly all the plate flaws are illustrated apparently.

The abbreviations used might take some getting used to - such things as "Fst im li ut Ph" and "li Rdl def u. dünn" but are also explained on a separate page.

I have double checked and my conjecture was correct. The articles you referred to were on the INFLA-Berlin site and were written by Harald Mürmann.

I used Wayback Machine to travel back in time and there seems to have been a series of about 20 pdfs - which unfortunately the archive did not capture.

Did you by any chance download all of these pdfs? If so would it be possible to let me have copies

Thanks in advance,

Chris

Micky · Post by **Micky** » 22 Feb 2015 14:36

Hi, I have a couple printing flaws to show.
As you can see the S in Tausend is faded.

Extended S also in Tausend.

Finally an unusual type of printing flaw through the top right value.

Micky

jadrake · Post by **jadrake** » 22 Feb 2015 15:20

Nice finds on the 5 Tsd Mickey... I went and looked at my hundred of so for similar curiosity.....! Just the task for a Saturday night when I am not motivated much.... but did not see anything.

One thing I have noticed about this set of three... the 50 Tsd M is about 3 x more common than the 75 Tsd M and even though I have nearly a hundred combined copies (mint and a few used) I have 2 of the 5 Tsd M only in mint! Do others have similar experiences? Is the 5 Tsd M that much rarer?

I am not sure if I by the flaw on the 30pf. I assume you are talking about the streak through the "3"? Are you sure this isn't caused by scuffing from being sent in the mail?

I had a look at my 30pfs. I have only about 20 of them in my empire book (completely un-examined at this point). The only one of interest in the top right was this one

Here is the close up

Now quite the same, but some disturbance to the "3". What is odd about this stamp is where I have the green lines (and also in the bottom left of the main stamp image) there is a ton a micro dots. If this was modern printing I would say "ink droplets" sprayed but that is impossible given the age. I wonder if there was a lot of ink on the plate and it "sprayed" when the plate was lifted off? it is not pronounced enough to be a kiss print and I needed to use decent magnification to see it. Even scanning at 600dpi barely picked it up.

Keep them coming!

jadrake · Post by **jadrake** » 22 Feb 2015 15:55

In case people are not aware, for Germania there is a great website here: http://www.germaniamarken.de/20.html that convers all of the Germania stamps in great detail and shows all the flaws the author has managed to find in their considerable collection. Neither of these two issues are cited (but like very thing German... there is always something new). The trick is proving it is constant at least for some part of the issue and not a single error.

DarrenK · Post by **DarrenK** » 22 Feb 2015 16:52

Two of these stamps were overprinted but never issued. They are listed in Michel on page 124 of the English version of the Specialised Catalogue. They are VII and VIII. The stamp shown in the middle is Mi 304A to highlight difference.

VII 800 Tsd on 300M dark yellowish green (on Mi 270)
304A 800 Tsd on 300M yellowish-green with black-green overprint
VIII 800 Tsd on 500M dark vermillion (on Mi 272)

jadrake · Post by **jadrake** » 22 Feb 2015 17:35

DarrenK I REALLY appreciate this contribution, since I know when I did album pages for this is really made me scratch my head trying to determine what was the issued and non-issued stamp since it said "yellowish-green" for both. I thought it might be the overprint that was different (sheen or color) but the color in your examples makes it easy.

DarrenK · Post by **DarrenK** » 22 Feb 2015 19:02

I recently purchased some circuit books dated 1957 from overseas containing all German stamps. Reading your excellent thread and looking at some of the examples that are in the books.

I noticed the example of Mi 144 fA. The H in this example is damaged and not missing. I'm curious if this may be a lead up to the centre of the H missing.

johnrcrow · Post by **johnrcrow** » 22 Feb 2015 20:55

Some excellent contributions. I am busy with another thread (post 1923 stamps) and welcome the rest here.
Was scanning in a load of letters and post card but scanner developed a vertical line problem!

Thanks to all.

Thanks for there reference to German stamps. I shall read it and devour the contents.

I agree that the 5Pf is scarce when it comes to accumulations. I too have the same ratios and I suppose this is reflected in the CV values for used, at least in Michel where the 5Pf is relatively high.

The 30Pf corner seems like a scuff mark to me. I am sure that such a dramatic scar would be catalogued somewhere.

The small holes in figures are common and appear randomly in most issues, usually one can see other holes on the stamp in the darker areas too.

The `micro dots´ too are a consequence of inking (to me) but let us look for such examples elsewhere.

The disappearing H cross bar is interesting and it may be the stepping stone to a broken H, but again there is no further information. It is here that we look for other examples from members showing the same picture to allow some better recognition that it is a genuine repeatable flaw.

I did show the unissued examples of Mi. VII and VIII (I will have to scroll back and give reference) pause:

Michel Table 33. page 1 gives CV and Figure 36. shows my examples. Mine are different in hue to Darren's examples but this is a scan/computer difference.

Two nice S aberrations on the 50 Tausend. I shall look more closely at mine and we may see similar.

Maptrekker too showing nice positions for the flaws. I like the Han.

Keep them coming (now where did I see this)?

John

johnrcrow · Post by **johnrcrow** » 22 Feb 2015 20:58

Forgot Chris. I shall enquire about the tome. It could be the all seeing reference for us.

Help with German PLEASE.

John

DarrenK · Post by **DarrenK** » 22 Feb 2015 22:21

I'm currently sorting through this era thanks to your thread John.

What I would like to discuss is how to pick the best cancelation out of a group. Genuine would be a requirement of it being the best. I have a page out of a collection purchased some years ago with Mi 159 A & B. I have scanned most of the used Mi 159 I have also.

Picking colour variations from scans is obviously fraught with danger. Can I please get some feedback on the cancels on the group. Row A and Row B stamps numbered 1 to 8 in each row.

This stamp was released in May 1921. For genuine cancels I wouldn't choose A 2, 5, 6, 7, B 3. My pick for the ones I would keep would be B 4 & 7. A 1, B 5 & 6 would also rate highly in my eyes.

Several of these used stamps have pencil claims of being 159B on the reverse also.

Thank you for any feedback.

Darren

johnrcrow · Post by **johnrcrow** » 22 Feb 2015 23:41

DarrenK-

Yes this is difficult to assess from scans.. Yours seem much lighter than I get with same range of stamps.

I will dig out my examples later and scan them in and we can have a consensus on shades.

The cancels are another problem. I will post the list of forged cancels on web this may eliminate some of yours (but I doubt it).

John

johnrcrow · Post by **johnrcrow** » 22 Feb 2015 23:46

The web site recommended earlier for German stamps

http://www.germaniamarken.de/30.html

is very comprehensive though scans a a little low on resolution.

So many flaws, so little time.

John

jadrake · Post by **jadrake** » 23 Feb 2015 01:32

I have INFLA 48 on detecting forgeries, of course it is all in German, and I have only translated a page or two so far (concerning backstamps not cancels alas....)

Shades

From the 2 rows below I believe these are brown-olive with some into the darker blackish-brown-olive shade (A3,A8,B4,B7 are good candidates). I do not believe any of those are Mi159b black-olive. John's copy on page one of this thread is definitely the Mi159b "black-olive". Notice how there is very little "yellow/brown" in the coloring and is more grey and green. Given that I am not confident that your two larger examples are anything more than the brown-olive and blackish-brown-olive (both Mi159a). There is an art of the shades and it can be trickier (I know I cause maptrekker headaches sometimes). I would also say your brightness/contrast settings on your scan are off leading to over-exposure.

Cancels

My favorites would be B4 and B6. I believe B5 "may" be a fake. It has a rounded "3" rather than angled like in B6 which is often on fakes. It looks like B1 might be a Wurttemberg cancel (I can't comment on the validity) One other comment is be cautious of "too bold" cancels. Sometimes a muddy or not crisp cancellation is a good thing. I have seen a lot of signed falsch cancels that are bold. Not an easy way to make a decision.

johnrcrow · Post by **johnrcrow** » 23 Feb 2015 08:24

Ok a little distraction maybe. I think this will illustrate the vagaries of trying to see each others shades on different computer screens.

What about seeing how the Michel colour guide page for brown olive area looks?

Michel colour guide page.

Here are some scans of my Mi. 153´s. Pardon white line, my scanner developed this yesterday and it will not go away. Using Mi. 178 (Waffles) as (blackish) brown olive as equivalent of 153a.

1. Whole page. 2-3 suspects. A2 , B6, E6

2. Repeat of proofed 153b.

3. Contrasting suspects (E6 and A2) with 153b and Mi.178

4. B6 and Mi.178

DarrenK · Post by **DarrenK** » 23 Feb 2015 08:38

Yes Jadrake and John colours and shades is something that is so open to perception. Where does one shade end and the other begin?

I have lots of stamps that I know look quite different but where do they fit in and what are they called. That is one of the reason I haven't started flogging off all the extras I have because I can't define the shades of all these stamps.

Many people have tried to lock down shades by digital means but all have failed. There are too many variables. It's not like a paint sample.

Thanks for the feedback.

DarrenK · Post by **DarrenK** » 23 Feb 2015 23:12

I've played with the scanner settings. I think these look better.

Original scan

DarrenK · Post by **DarrenK** » 23 Feb 2015 23:17

Another rescan:

Original scan is over exposed and washed out.

DarrenK · Post by **DarrenK** » 23 Feb 2015 23:30

And a few Mi 159 mint. Quite a few colour variations.

johnrcrow · Post by **johnrcrow** » 24 Feb 2015 00:57

Better DarrenK.

Have you a mint 178 (Waffles) to scan along with these samples of 159 lot? I am sure that would help shade evaluation in your scanning set up. The 159b is distinctly darker than 159a and there seem to be lots of shades darker but not dark enough.

John

maptrekker · Post by **maptrekker** » 01 Mar 2015 05:48

I have come to the conclusion that the basket lids were printed from plates make from a cliché of 25 stamps 5x5. A counter sheet of 100 therefore consists of 4 copies of the cliché 2x2.

That means that each plate fault appears 4 times in a sheet. Each fault appears once in the first quarter of the sheet. It appears a second time 5 stamps to the right. It appears a third time five stamps down. An finally a fourth time 5 stamps to the right and 5 stamps down.

If you look at the positions indicated by Michel for the PE1 fault -- 43, 48, 93, 98 -- a little calculation will show the faults to be 5 stamps from each other.

The same with the positions indicated by Michel for the 1923 New Currency "Crack in Basket Lid" -- 13, 18, 63, 68.

This is undoubtedly recorded somewhere but is new to me.

Previously, I illustrated PP24 (PE2) at positions 94 and 99. It should also exist at positions 44 and 49.

Perhaps someone with large margin blocks can confirm this.

bear0001 · Post by **bear0001** » 01 Mar 2015 08:56

John ., can you assist with these items !
I have this sheet of mi.314 AP Flat Plate Printing ;
These look like the primary type HT.

Position 13 on sheet.

Position 18 on sheet.

Postion 63 on sheet.

Position 68 on sheet.

bear0001
If you build it , they will come !

Micky · Post by **Micky** » 01 Mar 2015 13:09

My example of 233 I, broken arm.

Plus a couple covers I recently picked up.

Micky

DarrenK · Post by **DarrenK** » 01 Mar 2015 13:31

Bear001,

The first thing I noticed in your first image with the HAN displayed is the total inconsistency of the zeros. The last one is huge as is the fourth one. I image these differences would be consistent.

Micky, I like your very busy first cover.

Darren

Micky · Post by **Micky** » 01 Mar 2015 14:09

Yes it is super to see, then I seen these and thought of grabbing them but $50 seemed a bit high for the lot, I really don't know if I would be getting my money worth.

Now this is busy

This one was attacked by everyone I think, and it has 3 ploughman stamps it looks like a go for me.

And this one just looks different in a way. The wonderful Registered markings with Lorch a small town and the 4 wonderful oval stamps.

I have a couple weeks to think about these before bidding is over.

Micky

maptrekker · Post by **maptrekker** » 01 Mar 2015 15:08

bear0001, those are indeed HT plate faults right where they should be at those positions.

Since you have a full sheet you should be able to find:
the PE1 fault at 43, 48, 93, 98 and right next to them
the PE2 fault at 44, 49, 94, 99

johnrcrow · Post by **johnrcrow** » 01 Mar 2015 18:40

Thanks for all the recent posts.

Bear (thanks for compartment lines ID by the way) the stamps show primary HT I believe.

Micky thanks for letters. Maybe better resolutions scan would have been useful to identify stamps. I like the shields. Why was the one letter you said `attacked?`

I just now realise that you are scanning these on from a possible buy so I will look into CV for you a little later.

I will have a look at my literature about the plate constructions.

Been busy messing about in other areas.

John

Chris55 · Post by **Chris55** » 02 Mar 2015 02:40

Micky wrote:And this one just looks different in a way. The wonderful Registered markings with Lorch a small town and the 4 wonderful oval stamps.
Micky

BTW Sieger is one of the biggest stamp dealers here in Germany.
I receive post from them regularly and they still use real stamps (unlike the philatelic dept. of Deutsche Post

) usually combined with one of their advert cancels.

Cheers,
Chris

johnrcrow · Post by **johnrcrow** » 02 Mar 2015 06:03

For the letter with Nothilfe 4.(all Y watermark probably)? MiF letter.

we have 1928
a 5Pf Mi. 425, €7.5
a 8pf Mi. 426 €7.5
a 15Pf Mi 427 €10
and a 25Pf Mi. 428 €60 (2003 Brief Katalog prices. Plus registered.

If X watermark then total about €5000!

John

johnrcrow · Post by **johnrcrow** » 02 Mar 2015 06:07

Strictly my other thread on should have the post 1923 letters too.

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=61116

John

bear0001 · Post by **bear0001** » 03 Mar 2015 16:12

John & maptrekker
Thanks again for your help !

bear0001
If you build it , they will come!

Micky · Post by **Micky** » 03 Mar 2015 20:54

Apologies John, I will do right next time when posting.

I have purchased the one Nothilfe 4 for $17 US a nice piece.

johnrcrow · Post by **johnrcrow** » 03 Mar 2015 23:55

Absolutely no need to apologise Micky, it is great that you post and have interest.

Well done on the Nothilfe (as you showed)? Useful letter.

John

bear0001 · Post by **bear0001** » 06 Mar 2015 14:55

John
please assist with these items ;
Mi.185 fa partly missing ribbon.

Mi. 317A HT Flat Plate block.

Mi.318A HT Flat Plate block.

But also with this break lower left..not listed !

bear0001
If you build it , they will come !

bear0001 · Post by **bear0001** » 06 Mar 2015 16:26

John ;
forget about the first item we have already discussed this , sorry old age creeping up !

bear0001
If you build it ,they will come !

bear0001 · Post by **bear0001** » 06 Mar 2015 16:45

John ; Mi. 300 Is this what they call a roulette variety !

bear0001
If you build it , they will come !