Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by maptrekker »

A sheet of Mi 314 HAN H5686.23 that had its problems with the printing and perforation process.

The upper left corner was folded over before printing and perforation. Part of the stamp image and upper margin accounting number can be seen on the back.

ImageImage

This may have caused the sheet to be partially perforated again at the bottom.

Image

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks for inputs.

I suppose that the badly aligned sheets should have been discarded.

I also suppose there was real pressure on printers in the frenzy of hyper inflation issues where alterations were needed almost daily for some values.

Maybe this helped cause the errors observed.

I have a few extreme mis perfs.


I wonder at market values as I did notice that one seller was asking around €180 for one similar to one that I will show!

Scan all three all 312B


Image




Scan left stamp


Image


Scan middle stamp


Image


Scan right stamp


Image

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by maptrekker »

Misperfed serrated sheets would be harder to spot than regular perforations. I could see them getting by any inspectors.

Your examples are all misperfed differently, so it appears they came from different sheets. And yet they all seem to have their designs slanting slightly to the left.

Judging by the examples with the left and bottom margins, the sheets themselves seem to have been miscut.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

maptrekker I had not noticed the left lean, thanks for that.

I would like to see a mis perf on a letter or card cancelled. Anyone have an example?

Maybe the mis perfs were in fact ´saved` and discovered for collectors eyes only?

John

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by killmenow »

q
Last edited by killmenow on 30 Jul 2016 20:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by killmenow »

Hi all

I am considering selling off my SMALL collection of November 1923 covers (plus a few from other periods).

Is there any interest? If yes, I will create a thread with pictures of course

Regards

Lawrence

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by killmenow »

maptrekker wrote:A sheet of Mi 314 HAN H5686.23 that had its problems with the printing and perforation process.
gorgeous

Lawrence

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by rod54 »

Hi,

I hope this is a reasonable place to post this query.

I found this today when going through some Inflation Covers; but, can not work out the rate.

It would be Tariff #26 so it has a franking value of 4x30Mrd=120Mrd.

I assume it is either PM at 16Mrd or non-Local Letter at 80Mrd plus a surcharge.

Is there a special rate for this type of telegraphic mail? ' As the special delivery town rate (160 Mrd) would be too high for the franking.

Image

Any help would be appreciated

Regards

Rod A

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by Chris55 »

I'm sure someone here might have the correct answer but you mentioned the figure 120 Mrd and this was the rate for an Eilsendung between 20.11 and 26.11.1923.
Is it possible that it was simply a mistake?

By the way maybe you could explain what Tarif #26 is. I have looked in my Michel Spezial and googled german philatelic websites and found no reference to this.

I did find an international cover from 24.11.1923 franked with 120 mrd plus 20 mrd for registered mail but this actually had 7x 20 mrd stamps on it and not 35 mrd:

Image

I'm hoping to learn something new here :D

Cheers,
Chris

Edit: I have now found out that Tarif #26 is referred to here in Germany as "Periode 26" so that's answered that.
I also realised that my idea of it being a mistake was probably wrong as I presume the Eilsendung fee was added to the normal price of a standard letter and now I see that PBR has come up with the answer - which seems so obvious with hindsight!!
However I still dont understand why the OP suggested that a 30 mrd franking was the equivalent of 120 mrd :?
Last edited by Chris55 on 16 Nov 2016 06:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by PBR »

rod54 wrote:Hi,

I hope this is a reasonable place to post this query.

I found this today when going through some Inflation Covers; but, can not work out the rate.

It would be Tariff #26 so it has a franking value of 4x30Mrd=120Mrd.

I assume it is either PM at 16Mrd or non-Local Letter at 80Mrd plus a surcharge.

Is there a special rate for this type of telegraphic mail? ' As the special delivery town rate (160 Mrd) would be too high for the franking.

Image

Any help would be appreciated

Regards

Rod A
The printed matter rate was 30 Mrd. Mark up to 50 g of weight from 1 December 1923 on. The letter was postmarked on the last day before this rate went into effect, at 7-8N (between 7 and 8 pm).

Reference: Michel Postgebühren-Handbuch Deutschland, p. 74.

Cheers


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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by PBR »

Chris55 wrote:I'm sure someone here might have the correct answer but you mentioned the figure 120 Mrd and this was the rate for an Eilsendung between 20.11 and 26.11.1923.
Is it possible that it was simply a mistake?

By the way maybe you could explain what Tarif #26 is. I have looked in my Michel Spezial and googled german philatelic websites and found no reference to this.

I did find an international cover from 24.11.1923 franked with 120 mrd plus 20 mrd for registered mail but this actually had 7x 20 mrd stamps on it and not 35 mrd:

Image

I'm hoping to learn something new here :D

Cheers,
Chris
The rate is: International letter, 2nd weight step (up to 40 g) =120 Mrd. Mark plus 20 Mrd. Mark registration fee.

Reference: Michel Postgebühren-Handbuch Deutschland, p. 98f.


Cheers


pbr
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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by Chris55 »

PBR wrote:
The rate is: International letter, 2nd weight step (up to 40 g) =120 Mrd. Mark plus 20 Mrd. Mark registration fee.

Reference: Michel Postgebühren-Handbuch Deutschland, p. 98f.


Cheers


pbr
Thanks pbr - I actually knew this :D

I was just confused about "Tarif #26" and why 30 mrd worth of stamps covered a 120 mrd rate.

Now I know that "Tarif #26" is "Portoperiode 26" (my example was from PP 25) and have been able to anwer my own questions by reading up on it:
Infla Portoperiode 26 vom 26.11.-30.11.1923
Die Portoperiode 26 dauerte 5 Tage vom 26.11.-30.11.1923.

Die Portosätze der PP25 wurden nochmals vervierfacht und es wurden keine neuen Wertstufen mehr herausgegeben.
Die vorhandenen Marken wurden am Postschalter zum 4-fachen Wert verkauft und waren auch zum 4-fachen Wert frankaturgültig. Früher gekaufte Briefmarken werteten ebenso den 4-fachen Nominalbetrag; jedoch waren aufgrund der Erfahrungen der Hyperinflation nur geringe Markenmengen bevorratet.

Belege aus dieser Zeit nennt man Novemberbriefe.
[http://www.altpostgeschichte.com]

So in a round about way I have learnt something new today :D

Cheers,
Chris
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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by PBR »

Thanks, Chris. Now, I have learned something! :D

Cheers

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by Chris55 »

Anyone interested in seeing further examples of "November letters" from PP 26 should check the INFLA-Berlin website:

http://www.infla-berlin.de/14_Inflationsbelege/PP26.php

Covers from all the inflation periods can be accessed from here:

http://www.infla-berlin.de/14_Inflationsbelege/Inflationsbelege.php

Cheers,
Chris
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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Here are my few of the period 26-11-

I showed them earlier but here is a good focus.

Scan 1

Image


Scan 2

Image


Scan 3

Image


Scan 4

Image


Scan 5

Image


Scan 6

Image

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by Chris55 »

Image

I guess this was a case of someone being honest and using stamps that had been bought in Postperiode 25 and used to the full amount. They could actually have used 4x 1mrd stamps as on this one:

Image

As this was the last day of PP26 someone was getting the best use out of their 4 stamps. The next day they would have had to pay nearly double (30 mrd). If they had bought the stamps in PP25 it would have been nearly 8x as much!!

By the way I found this on the net - it's not one of mine :)
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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by rod54 »

PBR wrote:
rod54 wrote:Hi,

I hope this is a reasonable place to post this query.

I found this today when going through some Inflation Covers; but, can not work out the rate.

It would be Tariff #26 so it has a franking value of 4x30Mrd=120Mrd.

I assume it is either PM at 16Mrd or non-Local Letter at 80Mrd plus a surcharge.

Is there a special rate for this type of telegraphic mail? ' As the special delivery town rate (160 Mrd) would be too high for the franking.

Image

Any help would be appreciated

Regards

Rod A
The printed matter rate was 30 Mrd. Mark up to 50 g of weight from 1 December 1923 on. The letter was postmarked on the last day before this rate went into effect, at 7-8N (between 7 and 8 pm).

Reference: Michel Postgebühren-Handbuch Deutschland, p. 74.

Cheers


pbr
PBR,
Thanks for your prompt response - so obvious I don't know why I didn't reach that conclusion myself!!
Rod A

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by rod54 »

HI,
An interesting 'philatelic' item I came across this afternoon:

A price list of German stamps from a dealer in Bad Worishofen, Bavaria, simply folded and sent as Printed Matter to the USA.

Postmarked 29.10.1923 and franked with 5MioM Mi317AP and 1MioM Mi314AW for the correct International Printed Matter Rate to 50g of 6MioM (20.10 to 31.10.1923):

Image

Image

Interesting to note that it is priced in gold marks and transactions are to be in foreign currency at an exchange rate of 4GoldM=1$US.

Rod A

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by maptrekker »

Since the German gold mark was pegged at 358 mg. of gold, and the US dollar was pegged at 1/20th Troy ounce of gold, the conversion rate came to about 1 US dollar = 4 German gold marks.

Postmarked 20 Oct 1923, those listed stamps would become basically worthless one month later -- 1 new Mark = 1 trillion (1,000,000,000,000) paper Marks or 1 US dollar = 4.2 new Marks.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

As a boost to thread has anyone a cover with a higher value of stamps than this one?





Scan 1


Image




Scan 2


Image

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by chaulkdust »

John, I see you didn't get a reply to your question about Mi 155. Here is my copy which isn't proofed but I think is good.

https://imgur.com/nVuDdXY

There is a bit more information on the below site (page 13 near the bottom)

https://www.stampcommunity.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8094&whichpage=13&SearchTerms=Germany

Ron

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by chaulkdust »

Perhaps some one can help with the proper way to measure Mi 154 from the star to the M. My specialize cat indicate 10mm, but from where to where??
For some reason I can't post a picture from imgur? Sorry for the link.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

I am back Chaulk.

Concerning 154 IV.

Scan 1. Handbuch description for measurement needed.

Image



Scan 2. My 154 IV. remeasured.


Image




Scan 3 and 4. Two examples out of 15 measured with normal distances quoted.

Image

Image

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Chaulk. Your 155 iV looks excellent.

Here is Handbuch description.

Image


Now with your stamp added.


Image

enlarged


Image

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Re look at the 3M of yours.

Looks like yours is more of a slope with M also lower.

So the 3 M 3 of yours is and angled rather than in the Handbuch example where the M is on same line as the left 3.

John

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

MODERATOR

I am now ready to take on the task of Imgur´íng the images in my thread.

How do I get executive privilege to do this?

John

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by Micky »

Afternoon, found this one recently it maybe just a one off printing flaw but is interesting all the same. Parts of the overprint 5 is missing.

Image

Micky

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Micky

Typical of the era where aberrations in the overprint are common.

Not a listed flaw but interesting to the who collect such things.

Note the also the bars at base of stamp and broken ´d`in ´Milliarden`

Bar 13 (from right) broken in middle and last two bands shortened.

Here is your image with additional observations highlighted.

Titled above and below for Google I hope, remember to add titles to scans for search engine.

In Imgur store images at 900 max in one direction then use high thumbnail option for showing larger image here.


German high inflation 5 Milliarden on 10 millionen with flaws on overprint.

Image

German high inflation 5 Milliarden on 10 millionen with flaws on overprint.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by Micky »

Thank you johnrcrow for correcting my image, I was having trouble with adjusting the image using the ipad.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by CMJ »

This thread has had all the photobucket images replaced by Stampboards hosted ones and has been restored to its former glory.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Magnificent effort.

Imgur forever.


Thanks to all.

John

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by maurizio.aquila »

MiNr.152 watermark X or Y: I can not distinguish it
Image

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by drusus59 »

This thread has just inspired me to buy the Michel German specialised 1+2 2015-6 in English!!
Just when I think Im out, I get dragged back in again.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Just back from UK on 6th May.

Answer maybe later.

Have you a different scan of front and back, and maybe a date on cancel?



John

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

drusus59 wrote:This thread has just inspired me to buy the Michel German specialised 1+2 2015-6 in English!!
Yes well worth it. :)
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Next you will be buying all the various Handbooks.

I hope the Michels prove useful, they are to me.

Best wishes

John

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by Micky »

Good afternoon, I have a couple flaws.
1st.
Image

Image
2nd.
Image

Image

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by Micky »

3rd
Image

Image


And lastly.
Image

Image

I see the first and last stamps are listed, any advice on the 2nd & 3rd stamps?

Cheers
Micky

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Super scans Micky.

I would appeciate that you put them in Dienstmark thread

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=83365

One problem with the flaws area is that one needs the specialised studies.

I have not found a source for advance studies on the Dienstmarke stamps i.e. plate positions for flaws etc, as we have for say the Berlin and Brandenburg plates or Mecklenburg and Vorpommen.

Anyone have information?

Your flaws on 2nd and 3rd stamps look solid.

John

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

I have just delved back in time, so to speak and plucked out some interesting Inflation examples.

These have been gained more recently and are worth an educative look as well as to help me identify them accurately.

The interesting areas will be for the 1923 Mi. 332 to Mi. 337.

I will label figure headings 1923 a, b, etc.

These are the basket designs and part of the issue Mi. 315, 316, 318, 319, 321 and 322 with black typography overprints and dashed bar (OPD-issue).



This thread is long and getting old so here is a reminder of the Michel table for the stamps mentioned above.

1923 Figure 1.


Image




Below are the 2 pages I have assembled for study.


1923 Figure 2. Page 1. of examples including and between Mi. 332 to 337 for study.


Image




1923 Figure 3. Page 1. of examples including and between Mi. 332 to 337 for study2



Image


Enlargements follow on further studies.

Notice that many of the examples are OPD printings with various bars and stripes and lettering.

This was examined earlier on page 3 in Rest Table 7, and Rest Table 8, as well as examples being shown in figures Rest Figure 1 to Rest Figure 8.

Selvedge markings were also shown in Rest Figure 9.

Since these figures were added on 2015, I will include them again to explain better the differences in chosen examples and will add further more detailed identifying characteristics from Michel.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

1923 Figure 4. Michel table showing characteristics of flat plate and rotary plate printings.

Image



1923 Figure 5. Michel table showing more detailed characteristics of plate printings.


Image



1923 Figure 6. Michel table showing selvege characteristics of plate printings.

Image

So now to fit the examples I have to the details in Michel.

First I will select specific values I have.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Mi. 332 AW

Easy as I have only three.


1923 Figure 7. Three Mi.332 AW 1923 examples.

Image



1923 Figure 8a. Enlargements of left Mi.332 AW 1923 example.


Image

Not in good condition.



1923 Figure 8b. Enlargement of 5 in Mi.332 AW 1923 example.

Image

Note hole in 5. (Michel flaw 332 III).
Note heavy inking.



1923 Figure 8c. Enlargement of Milliarden and bars in Mi.332 AW 1923 example.

Image

Note heavily inked impression. M very heavy.
Note masking or no Millionen script on original stamp.
Note 21 bars at base.



1923 Figure 8d. Enlargement of selvege in Mi.332 AW 1923 example.

Image


Identification now.

Triple line so relatively say making it margin overprint b (see Michel table).

b = three thin lines makes it Breslau printing.

Lines are 1.5.1 outmost longer end lines and the inner longer lines

and 1.4.1. 2nd utmost long lines and inner shortest lines.

So full description is 323 A Wa OPD A b OR 1´4´1/1´5´1.

323 AWa is Mi. number of original stamp (base stamp).
OPD A b is OPD printing Breslau.
OR 1´4´1/1´5´1. is upper margin Rotary press lines.
Phew.

Of course one can also look for flaws on the base stamp and overprint.

The hole in the 5 is an overprint Michel flaw 332 PF III as said above associated with Breslau printings.

No basket flaws seen.



I will take this approach to other examples, hopefully things will be clear.

I also will add tomorrow the Michel advanced tables for all the variants of the OPD printings so that one can identify stamps.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Before extensive tables let us look at right hand stamp in figure 1923 Figure 7.

1923 Figure 9. Right Mi.332 AW 1923 example.

Image



1923 Figure 10a. Enlargement of 5 in Mi.332 AW 1923 example 1923 Figure 9.

Image

Note four small holes in 5.
Note general thickening of basket lines.
Note Milliarden overprint (OP) covering Millionen. Blurring of OP.

Generally the OP is not glossy (drab).



1923 Figure 10b. Enlargement of bars in Mi.332 AW 1923 example Figure 9.

Image


Note first three bars on left are weak.
Note 22
1 bars.




1923 Figure 10c. Enlargement of selvege in Mi.332 AW 1923 example Figure 9.

Image


Note single bar (4.5mm wide) so margin OP c in Michel figure.
Note single colour.
Certainly a 1.5.1. arrangement but not sure about other.


Conclusion that this is 332A Wa OPD F c OR (Kbc - Königsberg) but can be corrected.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Here are the Michel tables detailing OPD printings.


1923 Figure 11a. Michel table OPD Mi. 332 to 335.

Image



1923 Figure 11b. Michel table OPD printings Mi. 335 to 337.

Image


Enlarged portions will help.

1923 Figure 12. Michel table showing OPD printings for Mi.332.

Image

Codes are linked to 1923 figures 4 and 5 tables.


A reminder of the base stamps.


1923 Figure 13. Michel table of regular issue Mi.3323 to Mi.337.

Image


The 332 AWb blackish-brown-violet (dark purple (Nov) would be a good find!
What a colour description.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by warm »

Off topic but …
Are there any special links to the various postal rates/charges for the equivalent Zaire and Zimbabwe inflationary periods from 1980 to 2010 roughly

Just thought some of the German collectors may do both.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

I hope others can help with warm´s question?

John

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by warm »

As a follow up I have recently seen a commercially used Zaire A4 cover with ~ 300 stamps.

It is an advice received (double registered) cover to Belgium. All tiled on the front and the back.

By the time they had all been stuck on inflation probably indicated that more stamps were needed.

Yes - I know it is off topic. Just thoughts the inflationers may like to see.
Image
and
[Image
.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Spectacular example of inflation issues, warm.

John

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

What is the stamp cost for letter warm?

John

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Not forgetting centre stamp in 1923 Figure 7.

1923 Figure 14. Mi.332 WA lower margin edge example showing selvage number and broken bars.

Image

Note very weak OP.
Note is probably 0.6.0/1.5.1.



Image

I refrain from more comment, please add to information if you can.



1923 Figure 15. Michel table for Mi. 333 AP & AW OPD printings.

Image

Note high CV for A W printings. As with most used examples are scarce and hence with high CV.



1923 Figure 16a. Examples of 333 with selvage.


Image

Note the top stamps 1-4 are examples of flat plate printing (plate A) and with c marking (4.5mm thick bar that means either Erfurt, Frankfurt, Könisberg, or Münster).

The OP have to be examined in terms of glossiness and drabness (them used in literature) in order to assess the printing. I can only assess from actual stamps here.

So the stamps could be from different printings.

Another clue is quality of prints, the sharpness of the basket lines and resolution in the bars below.

Conclusions are

Stamps 1 and 2. Subdued gloss OP. Sharp basket lines and clean bars below. (Erfurt)
So 333 A P OPD B c OR A (Ef, c)

Stamp 3. Weak drab OP OPD I (Münster).
So 333 A P OPD I c OR A (Mc, c)

Stamp 4. Subdued gloss OP with irregular bars below and thickened basket lines. (Königsberg).
So 333 A P OPD F c OR A (Kb, c)

I may be wrong. 1 & 2 and 4 could be switched?


1923 Figure 16b. Mi. 333 1-4 enlarged.

Image

Clean printing with regular bars below.


Image

Clean printing with regular bars below.



Image

Weak printing with regular bars below.


Image

Irregular bars below. Thickened ´5`. Damaged ´M`in ´Milliarden`.

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