The Maltese Cross Cancel on GB Stamps Thread

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The Maltese Cross Cancel on GB Stamps Thread

Post by sherro »

If you've got them, let's see them!

They were only in use for four years, and full, crisp strikes are very hard to find.
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Post by ozstamps »

GREAT idea for a thread sherro!

I listed this one up for sale cheaply for $A115 this week, and it has a stunning looking Red Maltese Cross I think:


https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=7003

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Post by OttawaMike »

Some London Maltese Cross cancels with numerals - 5, 6, 7, 8 and 10

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Post by ScotsmanAbroad »

Numeral cancels with number 1 and 3. You can see from these and from OttawaMike that number 3 is the only one without the top cross in the upright position.

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Post by ScotsmanAbroad »

Here's a couple more. To the naked eye, the cross here is distinctly orange coloured, but does not show up so well in my scan.

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Post by ScotsmanAbroad »

An 1840 2d blue. There is a lot of paper attached to the back of this stamp, and it seems a little grubby.

Any thoughts on trying to soak it to clean it up?

I've only recently returned to stamp collecting, and I'm a little unsure of soaking my old penny reds/blues in case I damage them in some way :?

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Post by Lundy »

Not really my area i know virtually nothing about these, and they are certainly not the calibre of some of the fine examples above but here they are.... actually the second one looks quite nice
:) John
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Post by ScotsmanAbroad »

I couldn't afford this when it came up for sale, (too many zeros in the price!) but I kept a picture to think...."one day maybe...." This is the famous Cirencester White MX.

Robson Lowe in his encyclopedia said it resulted because they ran out of red ink, and for a short time the postmaster allowed the use of 'china white' pigment.

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Post by GlenStephens »

Did that "White" cross have a cert?

Sort of looks like an oxidised one at first glance! :)
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Post by ScotsmanAbroad »

It was about 18 months ago that I saw it for sale, so I don't remember if it had a cert. Could a Maltese Cross oxidise all the way to white??? For the sake of the person that bought it I hope it's genuine :shock:
Maybe I'll buy a 'filler' copy on ebay and try an experiment :P ,but with my luck I'd end up bleaching my eyebrows :lol:
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Post by dporter-stamps »

ScotsmanAbroad wrote:It was about 18 months ago that I saw it for sale, so I don't remember if it had a cert. Could a Maltese Cross oxidise all the way to white??? For the sake of the person that bought it I hope it's genuine :shock:
Maybe I'll buy a 'filler' copy on ebay and try an experiment :P ,but with my luck I'd end up bleaching my eyebrows :lol:

I think i saw that stamp for sale on ebay as well, there was a lot of coloured 'MC's (green, red, blue) for sale at that time, they all looked 'too good to be true', i certainly wouldn't buy it without a cert.


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A set of no's in M Cross, the one to keep an eye out for is no '4'
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Post by ewen s »

G'day,

This is my first Maltese Cross. It was one of 14 covers/entires that I won at an auction in the weekend. The cover is pretty clean and white compared to some of the others in the lot.

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And this is the back;

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Post by sherro »

Very nice, and thankfully just tied to the cover, which makes a huge difference with these. 8)
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Post by ewen s »

Sherro,

Is it important for the cancel to "tie" the syamp to the entire? I am new to this area and would appreciate a little more info.

Cheers,

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Post by sherro »

There's two reasons that being tied is important. Firstly, it helps establish authenticity, indicating that the stamp wasn't placed there later. Secondly, postal clerks at the time were told to obliterate the stamp, not tie it to the cover. They're actually marginally scarcer tied than untied.
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Post by ewen s »

Thanks Sherro,

I guess they'd be one of only times where a socked on the nose cancel is less desireable!

Ewen

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Post by iomoon »

A few maltese crosses with OI lettering.

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Post by fletches1 »

Mulready stationery describes the postal stationery lettersheets and pre-gummed envelopes that were introduced as part of the British Post Office postal reforms of 1840. They went on sale on 1 May, 1840, and were valid for use from 6 May.

The Mulready name arises from the fact that William Mulready, a well-known artist of the time, was commissioned to illustrate part of the precut sheets and envelopes.

The design incorporated a munificent Britannia at the centre top with a shield and a reclining lion surrounded on either side by a representation of the continents of Asia and North America with people reading their mail in the two lower corners, bestowing the benefits of postal services to the countries of the world under British control.

The Mulready illustration was printed such that it appeared on the face of the sheets. The Mulready lettersheets followed the traditional lettersheet design and could be folded as normal while the envelopes were a diamond-shaped sheet which, when the sides were folded about a central rectangular area, became an envelope when the overlapping edges were pasted.

The Mulready illustration was effectively a very elaborate frank indicating that postage had been pre-paid. In the same way that the first postage stamps were issued in two values (Penny Black and Two Penny Blue) both the lettersheets and envelopes were issued in one penny and two penny values in the same black and blue colours as the same value postage stamps

Above from Wikepedia, full link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulready_stationery


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See I do have more than USA :lol: :lol: :lol:

will swap for USA #2 on cover or something equivalent :P :P
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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Draccae »

I am so glad that I found this thread...such beautiful MCs posted in here.

So...if they have a number in middle (any number) does that mean that they are from London, or are those from London only specific numbers or numbers that were used in many places?

I posted a few the other day in the mourning cover thread, so I won't be redundant here. One on a mourning cover that wasn't posted...

Image


One on a folded letter...

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by iomoon »

Draccae wrote:I am so glad that I found this thread...such beautiful MCs posted in here.

So...if they have a number in middle (any number) does that mean that they are from London, or are those from London only specific numbers or numbers that were used in many places?


Yes,

the numbered crosses were only used in London.
They run from number 1 to 12.
On cover they are fairly expensive.
On the 2d blue on cover they are very expensive.
Number 11 is probably the most difficult to find.

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Brummie »

These are the only Penny Blacks I have with the Maltese Cross. I'll look at the reds and see what I have there. You know I'm going through the albums, front and back covers and the most interesting and unusual material is there :shock:

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by sherro »

Nice Brummie 8) I don't have a single Penny Black :lol:

The red crosses are so much nicer, aren't they?
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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Brummie »

Sherro, Glen should have some Penny Blacks. I know at least one of those above were bought from Glen many years ago, I think he was just starting out in the business.

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Global Administrator »

EVERY collector should own a Penny Black!!!

Most like to get one with their initials - which for 90% of us is possible.

Someone called Harold Isaacs for instance would like this one I sold from stock. They are often under $100 for average margin copies.

Most dealers have a few dozen on hand in varying grades - I always do, but as there are 240 number combos AA to TL, finding exact letters is a tough call. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Global Administrator »

Hard to beat this one for eye appeal, that I showed in a recent column!

Glen
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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Brummie »

After those two I'm a bit embarassed to put my next ones up that I found on some entires I just found, but here goes.


1841
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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Didge »

Glen,

That red one is a beauty. This is a great thread. Can anyone give a bit more background on the topic for the uninitiated?

Tim

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by sherro »

I (and Glen for that matter) fall into the 10% that can't get a correctly lettered stamp. Anyone with a surname ending in any letter after "L" can't, so I suppose it's more like 50%!

I do need one though. One of my sub-collections is Penny Black ephemera and anniversaries, so I've got hundreds of Penny Blacks, just not an original :lol:
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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Global Administrator »

Didge wrote:Glen,

That red one is a beauty. This is a great thread. Can anyone give a bit more background on the topic for the uninitiated?

Tim
I am no expert on these, and all the following is from my hazy memory, but I do know the early cancels were in RED ink.

The PO rapidly found the public could - on a 1d black especially, easily bleach out a light red strike and re-use the stamp for postage again. (Exactly what occurs today with the water based cancels used so often .. POs have learnt nothing in 160 years!)

Things like this one below is untouched, just has a light red strike to show what I mean, with a light bleach will turn into 'unused' - indeed many dopey collctors buy "unused" 1d blacks on ebay etc as "bargains" for $1000s that are simply bleached off red cancels. :twisted: :shock: :evil:

Image link inactive. Removed

The PO then had the bright idea to use BLACK ink, and that, with carbon black and linseed oil in it was NEVER gong to bleach out, or scrub out they were told.

Clever stuff. And very true.

Sadly a weak strike on a black stamp and you could STILL not see a cancel. And many stamps still were re-used.

So very rapidly (only 7 months after stamps were issued) they changed in Feb 1841 the color of the heavily used black stamps to RED, and when THAT colour got hit by a black cancel there was no doubt about it! As we can see.

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Many of the MX got re-made locally due to loss or damage, and there are TONS of distinct ones. Many colour inks are also known - even WHITE! Gibbons itself lists Blue, YELLOW and Magenta. The one above is from DUBLIN and this one below is from GREENOCH.

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Draccae »

iomoon wrote:
Draccae wrote:I am so glad that I found this thread...such beautiful MCs posted in here.

So...if they have a number in middle (any number) does that mean that they are from London, or are those from London only specific numbers or numbers that were used in many places?


Yes,

the numbered crosses were only used in London.
They run from number 1 to 12.
On cover they are fairly expensive.
On the 2d blue on cover they are very expensive.
Number 11 is probably the most difficult to find.
Thanks! Was the 11 not used long or is there another (specific) reason why it is harder to find?

The blue one up there with the red cross is striking...the colors really pop out.
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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by iomoon »

Supposedly, numbers 7 through 12 in cross were only in use from April 1st 1843 to May 1844 - give or take.
As far as I can tell, no one knows what the numbers were for; whether it was for time of day or a specific postie. The higher prices quoted for number 11 is all I use to indicate it may be more difficult to find.

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Global Administrator »

Io .. I have a recollection that the numbered MX were only used in various parts of London?

Possibly like code letters today and before, inside big city cds?

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Brummie »

dporter-stamps you have all the numbers in the Maltese Cross cancels, very nice strikes I might add, so why is the 4 the one to look out for other than it being hard to find?

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Global Administrator »

Image
I saw this shocker unsold at Prestige for $4,000 this week.

It had an alleged Cert as 'unused'

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I'd pay not more than a $100 personally as a bleached to oblivion disaster IMHO .. looks to STILL have traces of red ink on there!

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Brummie »

It's a shame really because now she is a penny grey, her margins aren't bad either.

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by iomoon »

Global Administrator wrote:Io .. I have a recollection that the numbered MX were only used in various parts of London?

Possibly like code letters today and before, inside big city cds?
The numbered crosses were only issued to the Inland Office of the GPO, rather than the districts.

It wasn't till 1856 that the GPO became the London District Office and divided into 10 districts.

By May, 1844 the PO's had changed to the barred diamond cancel.

In addition to the Inland Office there were the Foreign Office, the Ship Letter Office, and the Dead Letter Office. But it doesn't appear that the numbered crosses were divided up amongst these units.

Then, when London was divided into districts, there were only ten, not the twelve of the maltese crosses.

East Central (chief office)
Northern
Northeastern
northwestern
Southern
Southeastern
Southwestern
Eastern
Western
West Central

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Happy Stamper »

this must be the most boring thread ever

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by dporter-stamps »

Brummie wrote:dporter-stamps you have all the numbers in the Maltese Cross cancels, very nice strikes I might add, so why is the 4 the one to look out for other than it being hard to find?
Brummie,

Gibbons say :- ''From the middle of March 1843, until it was superseded in 1844, a series of crosses, numbered 1 to 12 in the centre, was in use at the London Head Office. The top of the obliterator was indicated by a small cross. No 3 usually shows no cross as it was not repaired after the cross broke off soon after its introduction. These occur on the 1d & 2d of 1841 & are rare on the 1840 issues. They are also known on the mulready envelopes & covers.''

no's 1,2,3,5,6,7,8,9 are cat, at £500 used.

no 10 is cat £600 used.

no's 4, 11,12 are cat £750 used.

I always thought no 4 was the most difficult to get !!, thought i see now that 11 & 12 are just as difficult.

David

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Brummie »

That's what I wanted. Great Info Io and David, thank you. It's amazing how much you can learn on Stampboards.

Having said that, Happy Stamper, if you are not interested in this topic why do you bother coming in to this thread? This may be boring to you but not to others and the answer is, only visit the threads that appeal to you as I do. :D

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Brummie »

I found a number on this 2p Blue, number 3. So the Maltese Cross was used first, the from 1843-1844 numbers were used (only in London).

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by The Pom »

Happy Stamper wrote:this must be the most boring thread ever
MODERATOR COMMENT

Jan,

Philately is a huge and diverse area. There are many threads on the Board that a large percentage of members may not be interested in, but that does not make them boring to those who study that area. No doubt there are many people who are bored by things that interest you.

In the future, please keep such opinions to yourself.

Many thanks

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Happy Stamper »

Thank you moderator

I just could not help myself but to react spontaneously as Vikings do!

I was just surprised that the thread actually could keep it going without being de-railed by jokes.

Jan

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by ScotsmanAbroad »

Here's a very small mourning cover with a penny red-brown, no.6 in the Maltese Cross.

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Draccae »

iomoon wrote:Supposedly, numbers 7 through 12 in cross were only in use from April 1st 1843 to May 1844 - give or take.
As far as I can tell, no one knows what the numbers were for; whether it was for time of day or a specific postie. The higher prices quoted for number 11 is all I use to indicate it may be more difficult to find.
iomoon wrote:The numbered crosses were only issued to the Inland Office of the GPO, rather than the districts.

It wasn't till 1856 that the GPO became the London District Office and divided into 10 districts.

By May, 1844 the PO's had changed to the barred diamond cancel.

In addition to the Inland Office there were the Foreign Office, the Ship Letter Office, and the Dead Letter Office. But it doesn't appear that the numbered crosses were divided up amongst these units.

Then, when London was divided into districts, there were only ten, not the twelve of the maltese crosses.

East Central (chief office)
Northern
Northeastern
northwestern
Southern
Southeastern
Southwestern
Eastern
Western
West Central
Interesting that some had a longer lifespan than others, thanks for explaining that!

ScotsmanAbroad - What a pretty mourning cover that is!
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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Brummie »

Draccae I think you have either a mourning cover or entire with the Maltese Cross on it that would fit very nicely on this thread too :D

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Draccae »

Brummie wrote:Draccae I think you have either a mourning cover or entire with the Maltese Cross on it that would fit very nicely on this thread too :D
Sure Brummie, here you go...



Image


Image


and one more on a folded letter, that looks like it is echoing...


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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by ScotsmanAbroad »

Got this on ebay as part of a little stock card of stamps I won. The seller obviously didn't examine the stamps. The reverse shows the 'ivory head' variety :D The was a 2d blue ivory head too :D :D

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Brummie
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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Brummie »

How lucky are you? :mrgreen:

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Brummie »

I found some more Maltese Crosses on these Penny Reds (bit scruffy though)

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Re: The Maltese Cross Thread

Post by Draccae »

This one came today. I really like that is has both a Maltese Cross and a red wax seal. :D

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