Poll:How high will this UK 1867 QV Block 8 cover go on eBay?

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What do you think this cover will sell for next week on eBay?

Poll ended at 02 Oct 2015 04:54

less than US$250
9
25%
$250-499
15
42%
$500-999
6
17%
$1000--1,999
5
14%
$2,000 or more
1
3%
 
Total votes: 36

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jimwentzell
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Poll:How high will this UK 1867 QV Block 8 cover go on eBay?

Post by jimwentzell »

Image

OK this seller on eBay based in Argentina has a somewhat fair reputation (I recall seeing some questionable items for sale previously, but many nice items as well) and states the catalog value is $6250.

I don't have my SG or Scotts handy but it sounds believable.

Note the two close-edge left side and two right-side damaged stamps detract, of course.

Just curious how high a buyer would go, sight unseen, taking all the inherent risks of buying expensive material on eBay.

Too high for my taste; unless my ridiculous-low snipe will end up winning the item!!!
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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by JonEboy »

Well I've gone for less than $1000 although as it is a very rare large block and eBay is another world then anything could happen :lol:

Jon

PS - To make it easier for folk (sorry if it spoils your snipe but it was a less than 60 second search) here's the item in question http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1867-GREAT-BRITAIN-TO-PORTUGAL-COV ... 4883e4805e

Item No: 311450435678
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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by billw2 »

I'd like to see more scans of it.

On one hand it's a block of 8, speaking as someone who collects US from the same rough period that's absolutely fantastic, even if the block is quite faulty. On the other hand it's been opened for display... any other scans of it?

I can't speak for mail from Britain but Portugal is a tough destination from the USA during the treaty rate period. I'd guess... being from the UK so assuming it's much more common than from the USA.. I dunno.. $1,000?

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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by JohnB »

I vote less than £500 but if one is not enough for you, he has another:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1869-GREAT-BRITAIN-TO-PORTUGAL-COV ... 1450423146

Image

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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by vikingeck »

I'd suggest the cut edge on the left of the 8 block and on the stamps on the second cover will be the interpane wing margin has been removed to get the stamps on the covers .
whatever it is -------it's better than a poke in eye with a wet umbrella !

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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by Rod Perry »

The $6250 catalogue value is puzzling, unless SG specialised price used blocks at a huge premium to singles? (my QV SG specialised is in storage)

Has the vendor made the classic misinterpretation of multiplying the "on cover" price by eight, whereas the correct calculation should be the "on cover" price for a single, plus the used "off cover" catalogue price for seven singles.

Yes, I understand that a block of eight ought to be worth a premium, but in the absence of a specific catalogue value for blocks on cover, my simplistic formula is the only way to arrive at a catalogue value.

I'll say less than US$250 for this ugly little puppy.

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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by Stephen 8 »

Wrong time of year for 'fever' to carry it very far. Under two hundred. But you never know.

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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by mozzerb »

It's GB QV usage material (not enormously widely collected, it seems, and hence not nearly as pricey as you might expect from rarity considerations), to a slightly-better-than-average destination for GB mail, with a block of 8 (plus) with the stamps in poor condition (minus) sold in a venue which isn't necessarily the best for this and by a seller who has listed dodgy material but also lists perfectly kosher stuff.

Might fizzle or take off, but I'll say $250-500 as a reasonable guess?

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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by thecloudwatcher »

Rod Perry wrote:The $6250 catalogue value is puzzling, unless SG specialised price used blocks at a huge premium to singles? (my QV SG specialised is in storage)

Has the vendor made the classic misinterpretation of multiplying the "on cover" price by eight, whereas the correct calculation should be the "on cover" price for a single, plus the used "off cover" catalogue price for seven singles.

Yes, I understand that a block of eight ought to be worth a premium, but in the absence of a specific catalogue value for blocks on cover, my simplistic formula is the only way to arrive at a catalogue value.
This is exactly what I thought when I saw the quoted catalogue price.

Relatively high frankings (48d = 4s) like this to Portugal aren't uncommon. There was a lot of correspondence taking place between wine merchants (in England) and producers (in Portugal). Port was an extremely popular drink in the 19th century and many Brits took the opportunity to purchase vineyards in the Oporto/Douro Valley area (which is where Port is produced:D )

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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by Global Administrator »

Welcome to the Wacksville World of Ebay Stamp Sellers. Where facts need never stand in the way of any lot offered.

Does this spiv ebay seller "internationalcovers" in Argentina get a $1 bonus for every "!" he types? Must be 100 of them. :roll:

Image

NO, - "Private Auctions" for stamps on ebay are a near GUARANTEE of shill bidder heaven you spiv, and anyone using ebay knows that.

SG 109 is Cat £90 used in the brand new 2016 'Part 1' I just got, and is SG £140 on cover in same book. Some vandal has scissored off the wing margins so nothing enticing looking here to me

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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by gavin-h »

I just posted this on the "Should I Buy It?" thread before I looked at the listing:
gavin-h wrote:Jim,

If this is SG97 (watermark Garter), the price for a single on cover is £180 according to my 2014 SG Concise.

If it is SG104 (watermark Spray of Rose), the price for a single on cover is £200.

There's also SG84 at £210 (small corner letters) or SG85 at £350 (small corner letters with hairlines) but I think they are less likely.

Multiplying any of those figures by 8 still doesn't get you anywhere near the $6250 quoted, but of course none of that takes account of the relative rarity of the multiple.

Also of interest to me is the addressee - Martinez Gassiot is a fine Port producer:

http://www.vintageport.se/house/Martinez.php

Now part of the Symington group, it was founded in 1790.
Based on the full listing and other comments here, I vote "less than $250", but who knows?

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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by Philexx »

Well I went for $250 up to $499.

Edit: by the way Jim I totally agree with your rule of not going over $100 on Ebay, just too risky.
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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by billw2 »

Well, I was way too high then.

I wasn't sure of the rarity of this item (turns out not terribly). Now, were this cover a block of 8, say, 12c stamps from the USA to Portugal?

This would be worth thousands as covers from the USA to Portugal during the treaty rate period are downright rare.

Like anything else, as someone who colelcts postal history from this period it's the rarity of the use that gets me excited. One of my favorite covers is not spectacular looking but is an extremely rate rate (1 of 3 or 4 extant).

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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by Rod Perry »

US$152.50.

A victory for visual appeal over rarity, it would appear.

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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by David Benson »

Rod,

re.
US$152.50.

A victory for visual appeal over rarity, it would appear.
A Victory for demand over rarity.

No use comparing it with what it would have realised if it has been " whatever ". The demand for GB blocks of surfaced printed isn't there whether on cover or not.

David B.

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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by rossi »

Some postage rates:

3/6 was the postage rate to Portugal via France for a weight above 1½oz but not exceeding 1¾oz.

4/- was the postage rate to Portugal via France for a weight above 1¾oz but not exceeding 2oz.
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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by Rod Perry »

The problem with this cover, to my eyes at least, is it does not present attractively.

Were this block of eight, sans stamp faults, and creases affecting stamps, before us I would have thought US$750/1000 would have been a reasonable realisable range.

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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by billw2 »

Rod,

From the scan I agree that it looks like a pig. However sometimes rarity can overcome that (Turns out this isn't that rare of an item).

Here's a piggy cover that I can live with:

Image

Looks like a usual cover to Canada, nothing special. However the stamp is a 10c Type 1 (aka "August" or a Scott 62B) which is rare and then you've got a green cancel to boot which is also very scarce.

It's like the "Ice House" cover; a pig with a replaced stamp, but a unique use (Only known US 90c 1869 on cover).

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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by mozzerb »

billw2 wrote:It's like the "Ice House" cover; a pig with a replaced stamp, but a unique use (Only known US 90c 1869 on cover).
That kind of illustrates the point -- even a really rare GB QV surface printed stamp on cover wouldn't often fetch more than about £5-10k at open auction. Early line-engraved -- now you're talking. (OK, the Ice House cover is also a famous "name item" which adds greatly to the price. On the other hand, from the story I saw of its origin it's fishy as hell.)

I wouldn't say the cover in question "isn't that rare" -- blocks of surface printed in any condition are seldom seen -- its just not as rare as it seems at first sight. (And you could probably improve the looks by pressing out the crease, although there's nothing legit that can be done about the perforations.)

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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by Global Administrator »

Rod Perry wrote:US$152.50.

A victory for visual appeal over rarity, it would appear.

Rod
Agree. :)

ebay spiv sellers using the must be avoided "private auctions" AND lying through their teeth about alleged catalogue value, does not always attract Bunnies. :mrgreen:

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Re: Poll:How high will this UK 1867 QV Block 8 cover go on e

Post by jimwentzell »

I hadn't even noticed the above item was a "private auction."

Normally a HUGE red flag and I STAY AWAY from them.

As mentioned previously, and in other discussions,

what does a seller want to hide?
--Jim in Georgia always interested in postal history, covers & cards (no FDC)
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Re: Poll:How high will this UK 1867 QV Block 8 cover go on e

Post by mozzerb »

jimwentzell wrote:I hadn't even noticed the above item was a "private auction."

Normally a HUGE red flag and I STAY AWAY from them.

As mentioned previously, and in other discussions,

what does a seller want to hide?
This seller's a weird one. The private listings and the !-laden descriptions scream "dodgy", and he(?) lists some dubious items, but on the other hand he sells a bunch of good stuff which arrives on time like a gentleman and is perfectly legit.

I've bought a few items from him -- cautiously. One I remember was a GB registered cover with the scarce 4d vermilion Plate 15, which I knew damn well was OK as I'd sold it myself about a year before (not to him AFAICT) and subsequently regretted that. The curious thing was that it wasn't flagged in the description as being from the difficult plate, so I got it back for about half of what I originally sold it for. Others were a couple of Australia-GB combination covers (i.e. airmail to UK then redirected elsewhere) which again are fine.

I'm leaning towards this guy being "more clueless than ruthless", just someone who lists items often without being very clear what they are. What I'm really suspicious of is what his sources of material might be.

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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by card12 »

Good afternoon,

Dear rossi,

I red your following post:
rossi wrote:Some postage rates:

3/6 was the postage rate to Portugal via France for a weight above 1½oz but not exceeding 1¾oz.

4/- was the postage rate to Portugal via France for a weight above 1¾oz but not exceeding 2oz.
What are your postal sources and year for the postage rates you referred?

As a reference and accordind to the Additional Convention signed between United Kingdom and Portugal, in June/1866, the postage rates are the following:

1 - Overland through France and Spain, etc, etc - ... a quarter of an ounce in weight six pence and so on, increasing at the rate of six pence for each additional quarter of an ounce... (six pence in 1859 convention)
2 - ... not exceeding half an ounce in weight, conveyed either by a british packet or by a private ship, a rate of six pence and so on... (quarter of an ounce british packet, four pence in 1859... and half an ounce by private ships, four pence in 1859)

Main Postal Source for 1859
Convention... King of Portugal... Queen of the United Kingdon of Great Britain and Ireland [...], Lisbon 6/April/1859
Main Postal Source for 1866
"Additional Conventtion Between the General Post Office of the Kingdom of Portugal and the General Post Office of the United Kingdom [...]" London/6/June and Lisbon/28/June/1866
Bibliography
Also reported in the following book:
TABEART (1989). United Kingdom Letter Rates 1657-1900 Inland & Overseas [...]
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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by rossi »

card12 wrote:Good afternoon,
rossi wrote:Some postage rates:

3/6 was the postage rate to Portugal via France for a weight above 1½oz but not exceeding 1¾oz.

4/- was the postage rate to Portugal via France for a weight above 1¾oz but not exceeding 2oz.
What are your postal sources and year for the postage rates you referred?
Hi, the data was taken from the PO directory of Edinburgh published on May 1867:

Image
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Re: Poll:How high will this UK 1867 QV Block 8 cover go on e

Post by phrag99 »

It's quite simple - the postage payable was 6d per ¼ ounce, 4/- paid for between 1¾ and 2 ounces.

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Re: Poll: How High Will This UK 1867 QV blk/8 Cover Go on eB

Post by card12 »

rossi wrote: [...]
Hi, the data was taken from the PO directory of Edinburgh published on May 1867:

Image
Dear rossi,

Thank you for your answer with the reference.

Your data (using a composite table) says the same of the text of the own postal convention I reported for 1866 (six pence / 1/4 oz) (1).

The backside of those covers had any postmarks? Any other elements?

(1)
card12 wrote: [...]
1 - Overland through France and Spain, etc, etc - ... a quarter of an ounce in weight six pence and so on, increasing at the rate of six pence for each additional quarter of an ounce... (six pence in 1859 convention)
[...]
Main Postal Source for 1866
"Additional Conventtion Between the General Post Office of the Kingdom of Portugal and the General Post Office of the United Kingdom [...]" London/6/June and Lisbon/28/June/1866
[...]
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Re: Poll:How high will this UK 1867 QV Block 8 cover go on e

Post by mozzerb »

This cover is coming up for sale at David Feldman at the end of the month with an estimate of £340-400 (+ commission of course):

https://www.davidfeldman.com/auctions/browse-lots/aucP/2017- ... em/293729/

The sale includes a number of other covers from the same correspondence. Will be interesting to see what it gets ...

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