My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

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ricochet
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My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by ricochet »

Good day ladies and gents, I just purchased the following partial cover on ebay and await it's delivery to Siam in a few weeks.

What caught my eye initially was the rather high and large (or should I say very open) check letter "C". My eyes then quickly fell upon the black Maltese Cross cancellation and then immediately scanned left and fell upon the "13 FE 13 1840" year cancellation... what's that?! Something not right here with an impossible postmark dated 2+ months too early. Might this be a very early forgery; a bogus cancellation; or a possible but highly unlikely incorrect year cancellation stamp (implying that it should have been 13 FE 13 1841 but these are extremely rare)?
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Here is what I can determine thus far (my eyes aren't the greatest so I might have missed something crucial):

No Ray Flaws
No "O" Flaw
No "O" Bulge
No Dots
No Vertical/Horizontal Guidelines
No Extended Frame Lines
No Squat "A" of "POSTAGE"
No Scratch on "OA" of "POSTAGE"

Very Weak Side Frame Lines
Thin Base Lines
Possible Gap [at] Top Left and Bottom Right of NE Square
Check Letters are extremely strong and sharp
Left Check Letter: High and Very Bold "A" (heavy ink)
Right Check Letter: High, Bold, Large Open "C"
Black Maltese Cross (Plate 2, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, or 11)

I have narrowed it down to the following:

Plate 5; a possible Third Repair Black Provisional Printing?
Plate 6; State 1?
Plate 11 (which would jive with 13 FE 13 1841 if it is indeed a incorrect/mistaken year cancellation)

What say you?

Upon receipt I will take better scans and post... especially of the rear "PAID" cancellation which may confirm the correct date.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Global Administrator »

ricochet wrote:Good day ladies and gents, I just purchased the following partial cover on ebay, and await it's delivery to Siam in a few weeks.

In my view the rough inkjet printed "stamp", laughable Maltese Cross cancel, clumsily modern written address, are all crude fakes. Another ebay screaming BAAAAARHHHIN it seems. :roll: :roll:

I am amazed even ebayer buyers would not spot at a glance those corner letters were absurd beyond belief, but nothing surprises me these days with BAAHHHGINNN HUNTAS.

I trust you left glowing feedback?

As to it being a very 'old fake' my carbon dating nose suggests it is probably as old as 2018.

A red hot finalist in the -

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”Ebay Bunny Of The Month Award”
Your entire ebay amateur concoction is a genuine as a Three Dollar Bill
-

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GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate? Fake?

Post by ricochet »

Don't quite know how to take your "tone" good sir... I do hope it is in friendly jest.

I definitely don't consider myself a "bargain hunter" but rather a curious old man who stumbled across a possible forgery/fake that was partially labeled wrong under Netherlands in eBay (maybe purposely). For ~100 USD I thought it worth the purchase to see what it was.

So I do hope you are not belittling me or making fun of someone else's misfortune especially being an administrator. It would definitely be a shame in my case as you were my first response to only my second post on the forum.

If so, oh well I can't say I will be too surprised by the prevalence of the rottenness in this world.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Global Administrator »

ricochet wrote: For ~100 USD I thought it worth the purchase to see what it was.

Oh well, everyone's perception of a BAAAAHGIN differs. What's a mere $US100 for an ink jet fake made probably last week. Things must be very prosperous in "SIAM". :idea:

Your choice entirely to buy it - you can't blame anyone else. As you have not shared the ebay link, we cannot see what the seller described it as. Any alleged "rottenness" depends on the wording the seller used.

If they described it as "howling modern forgery in all respects - Bunny Bait Price today only is just $US100" - more fool you.

If they described it was an "1840 1d Black, with Feb 1840 cancel" - also more fool you - but ALSO the spiv seller should be reported and named here, to warn others.

Life is a learning curve. Buying scarce stamps from spivs on ebay will give you a VERY fast and very expensive crash course. 8)

I can sell GENUINE 3 margin 1d Blacks for $USD100, but hey, buying off real dealers is so passée to some ebay experts! :lol:

SAVVVVVY folks ask the experts here first before leaping in boots first, and ears pinned back for such BARHHHGINS. As you will discover. :mrgreen:

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by ricochet »

Sheriff, did I catch you in a bad mood or something?

I genuinely came to this forum to make friends and to learn... not to be belittled or be made fun of. Was there not a more polite or friendly way of saying what you said to me? Where is all this emotion coming from as I don't appreciate being yours's or anyone's "whipping boy" for any accumulated frustration that one might be facing in their lives.

Again, I did start off the thread saying I thought it was a possible forgery and my curiosity led me to consider what possible plate it was trying to fake/copy. My apologies if I posted in the wrong thread. Apologies if I angered you in some fashion as it was not my intention at all.

Could I kindly request that for one moment you reconsider your view of me and assume that I may just be simply an old guy who has gotten back into the hobby and is innocently feeling out the waters and is certainly willing to take any/all advice from fellow collectors? Where is camaraderie?

And believe it or not if you do indeed have anything to sell of interest to me I would be genuinely interested in buying from you. You have my email address please do send me a link or catalog as I would certainly be interested. Thank you.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by ricochet »

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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Global Administrator »

We are here to educate. We all get frustrated to see naive folks cheerfully spending very good money on landfill garbage on ebay.

Ask on the boards FIRST with any queries as I clearly posted, is never a bad idea. Or donate the $US100 to a worthy charity if you are so wealthy such sums means nothing - your call.

But do not shoot the messenger. "Knowledge Is Power" and you hopefully today obtained some more. :?:

Your BAAAHRRRGIM SELLA grampi_35 has listed up even more laughable 1d Blacks on cover -

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GB-1d-PENNY-BLACK-on-piece-of-lette ... 2443777613
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You can either buy that and corner the market in landfill, or report him to ebay, and have his account removed and leave immediate negative feedback stating her is a serial faker. The course is yours, not ours. You will do neither of course - collectors seldom do. They just shoot the messenger. :roll: :roll: :roll:

BASIC buyer research is to check past sales on low feedback sellers. Did you do that? Of course not. You'd have seen grampi_35 has sold a HEAP of these appalling fakes (including the same corner letters you bought and "plated"!) to a conga line of Ebay Bunnies - along with offering a ton of clear Albania fake overprints -

https://www.ebay.com/sch/grampi_35/m.html?item=352441741892& ... 6732.m1684

Seems clear he often uses fragments of genuine 1840s era entires to add the fake 1d Blacks to. Hence paper and some handwriting and some markings are in fact genuine.

Over to members to report this spiv, and have all this CR*P removed.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by ricochet »

I sincerely appreciate the advice and certainly agree with it.

But I am failing to see where I laid blame on anyone nor where I was "Shooting the Messenger"???

I believe you jumped the gun on your first reply post with me thinking I was clowning around (which I was not) and I will certainly take it as that and let it be.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Global Administrator »

We are here to educate. We all get frustrated to see naive folks cheerfully spending very good money on landfill garbage on ebay. :roll: :roll:

Ask on the boards FIRST with any queries as I clearly posted, is never a bad idea. Or donate the $US100 to a worthy charity if you are so wealthy such sums means nothing - your call.

But do not shoot the messenger. "Knowledge Is Power" and you hopefully today obtained some more. :?:

For real 1d Black collectors and all those who hate to see ebay fake sellers conning the newbies, and being active shill bidders between their accounts, please gets those reports in on these crooks - as those that were conned cheerfully leave glowing feedback after being ripped off, making a mockery of the feedback system -

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PENNY-BLACK-GB-1840-QUEEN-VICTORIA-Plate-3-Cat-300-/352439924008

More fake cancels on a totally fake inkjet printed 1d Black - ALL PENNY BLACK collectors please report this all to ebay, and the buyers of all this trash in recent weeks. active Shill bidding between the 2 accounts flogging this garbage.

Report all the current ones please, and the fake Albania overprints - crooks like him are a disgrace to ebay. The Bunnies are generally clueless so must be protected from themselves by more experienced eyes.

https://www.ebay.com/scw - there is space for 10,000 characters in your reply, so all the relevant info can be added. Unlike most ebay complaint forms that allow just 100 characters etc.

Ebay Rules insist he marks all fakes with the word REPLICA and offer them for sale AS replicas, or his account will be closed.

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-ite ... 7#section2

Ebay have revamped the rules re forged and faked and replica and counterfeit stamps.

Sellers now MUST mark fakes indelibly on reverse, and load a photo of that marking into the lot description.

Alterations (and that includes forged perfins, overprints like all the Albania and forged cancels like the 1d Blacks) and repairs MUST be noted now if known to seller, and sellers offering conga lines of the same fakes clearly DO know!

https://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/currstamps.html#replica_stamps

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Also on EVERY ebay lot there is a “Report Item” icon – whether the sale is ended or not.

Reporting that via the simple drop-down options as shown below is a 5 second operation -
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If ebay gets 5 or 10 reports on any given items they WILL generally take notice. They usually warn the user and remove the lot. Sellers getting several such removed lots are in trouble.

Let’s use ‘people power’ to stop this material getting offered.

Everyone “hoping” others act, will get nothing done - like most things in life! It takes teamwork and a Community Spirit, and the dodgy and misleading lots will be FAR less.

ebay now have set up a fast new portal JUST to report suspected sellers of forged stamps at - https://www.tinyurl.com/ebayfakes - also found at - https://www.ebay.com/scw - there is space for 10,000 characters in your reply, so all the relevant info can be added. Unlike most ebay complaint forms that allow just 100 characters etc.

Please take a moment to do BOTH ….. do the “Report Item” drop-down, and give a summary on the link above.

Most likely they will go to 2 different ebay staffers, and that is double trouble for the fakers.

Some staffers ignore such stuff, others are more pro-active – it is a lottery.

However several reports on any single item can be seen by all staffers looking at it, and that generally gets some action.

Even if 4 staffers have ignored it, the 5th staffer might see 5 reports and decide to act etc. :mrgreen:

"People Power" - never under-estimate the value of it! 8)

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Ebay's OWN clear written rule is that Counterfeit Stamps are NOT allowed on ebay. Period. Remind them of their OWN rule, and it often does wonders. The average ebay Robot Drone in Bangladesh or Bombay or Bogan has never heard of that rule - REMIND them. :mrgreen:
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by gavin-h »

Global Administrator wrote:You can either buy that and corner the market in landfill, or report him to ebay, and have his account removed and leave immediate negative feedback stating her is a serial faker. The course is yours, not ours. You will do neither of course - collectors seldom do.
Amazingly, the POSITIVE feedback left on the original item by ebay user s***c ( 8 ) reads:
Very professional in quickly rectifying an issue with an immediate refund.

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

I'm not often speechless, so I'll just let Glen express it for me.... :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

EDIT:

I've also used my "Moderator Superpowers" to split these posts from the original Penny Black Plate ID thread and move them to the Online Auction Forum as a standalone topic.

Note left on original thread pointing to this one...
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by norvic »

Reported the still running 1d black. I suspect the Albania etc are probably forgeries also, or at least forged overprints. They just look....
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by steevh »

Back to the original $100 'bargain', besides the fake stamp and the fake date stamp, the address appears to have been written with a biro in modern hand, and 'Edinburg' spelt wrong. Doesn't look 1840 at all.
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by Global Administrator »

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Same faker seems to be working under at least 2 accounts ex UK - this junk is currently offered via ebay spiv paulkarjalainen who has sold several of them already.

The Clueless Bunnies hopped into this landfill to the tune of 127 quid -

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PENNY-BLACK-STAMP-ON-the-waterma ... 663.l10137
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by Global Administrator »

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https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-PENNY-BLACK-1840-Queen-Victori ... 3499790685

Same low feedback ebay spiv paulkarjalainen is offering a PAIR of fake 1d Blacks he has separated by his TEETH it appears - please also report him.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by ricochet »

gavin-h wrote:I'm not often speechless, so I'll just let Glen express it for me.... :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:
As per an informed recommendation by the eBay Resolution Center I was told it was best to remain civil and to kindly request an immediate refund from the seller and was also advised that friendly feedback in some cases would ensure a quicker refund.

In my case, it worked perfectly and I was immediately refunded along with a profuse apology from the seller. It was not my place to start a ruckus with the seller but to follow the said given advice from eBay administrators whom clearly requested me to "not make matters worse" by taking "matters into my own hands".

I was assured that they were investigating the seller and all his items as they had received a number of recent complaints. They promised that if I remained friendly and civil with the seller and did not receive a refund within 24 hours that eBay would directly refund my PayPal account.

All said and done, it worked perfectly, stress free, and the 'powers that be are' duly investigating as accordingly.


@gavin-h: I am definitely not "speechless" but rather annoyed as you clearly were not fully informed good sir. Why did you find it necessary to instigate a subject that Glen and I had already resolved? Shame on you as you were clearly attempting to toss fuel on a fire (but in this case it was a non-existent one). I do believe you are old enough to know better, yes?

Apologies, for not posting in the Online Stamp Auction as I concur that was/is probably the best place for my post. Didn't occur to me at the time as I had thought the original thread was for identifying Penny Blacks but I see your point in moving my posts.

Beginning to feel that this forum may not be such a friendly place after all... I am disappointed to say the least as I was sincerely hoping to join a fun group of collectors. Really far too old to partake in this kind of silliness any further so I will stop here. Good day.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by aethelwulf »

In the feedback history, the first bidder dropped out at 3 quid. Everyone has their own limit at which they'll gamble--some bet a fiver on a horse, some bet 5,000. I know that if I were going into this with a hunch it was a fake, as you have said you yourself thought, I sure wouldn't keep going to $100 on it.

The impossible cancel is a big warning sign. Then there is the stamp itself--what is wrong with those corner letters, they look so much brighter than the rest of the stamp. The cancel is way too pale, and the address does look like it was done with a ballpoint.
ricochet wrote:I was assured that they [eBay] were investigating the seller and all his items as they had received a number of recent complaints.
Suuurrrreee they are. And Queen Victoria is still alive. :roll: :roll:

There have been sellers that simply steal images from the websites of real auctioneers, and offer the material on eBay. EBay was informed by the auctioneers directly of the matter, and still the listings weren't taken down.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by gavin-h »

ricochet wrote:@gavin-h: I am definitely not "speechless" but rather annoyed as you clearly were not fully informed good sir. Why did you find it necessary to instigate a subject that Glen and I had already resolved? Shame on you as you were clearly attempting to toss fuel on a fire (but in this case it was a non-existent one). I do believe you are old enough to know better, yes?
Surely the purpose of feedback is to reflect the experience of the transaction and to act as a warning to other users as necessary, not to act as a path of least resistance in ensuring a refund is forthcoming. THAT is why I raised the point. :idea:

In your position I would have awaited the refund and THEN left negative feedback. :idea:

"Old enough to know better"??? Old enough to have the confidence to speak my mind actually. :wink:
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by Global Administrator »

Yes poor old ricochet gets the Rolled Gold Bunny Of the MONTH award now I look more into it. :twisted:

FIRST he leaves a glowing POSITIVE to this serial faker. Instead of the NEGATIVE anyone with an IQ above 5 would have usually given, for being conned for $US100, so as to warn all others as he was urged above. THAT is exactly what feedback is for, you DOPE. :roll: :roll: :roll:

He'd of course always have got a PayPal refund - after we told him he'd been conned - he was delighted with his buy he told us earlier today. He was all keen to work out the plate number for Gawdsakes

Dumb Move #1.

Dumb move #2 for even dreaming it was genuine.

Dumb move #3 for doing the most rank amateur thing on ebay - playing juvenile footsies bidding up for days - he started low and kept on his crazed path upward. Talk about show your hand.

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Who joined him on the ever increasing upward newbie bidder madness bidding duel?

none other than a***n (12) - who I'll bet the house is our fellow faker above - paulkarjalainen who ALSO has 12 feedback - amazingly.

And guess which shill bidder was pushing up the Bunnies on this also fake 1d Black from paulkarjalainen - lets see a***5(36) ...... who I will bet the house is our friend grampi_35 - who has 36 feedbacks as I type - one from our Bunny Buddy here, ricochet

https://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/173490835105?item=17349083 ... %20(36%20)

So instead of poor old gullible ricochet reporting these 2 spivs for shill bidding each other for selling the same crude fake 1d Blacks - 100% VERBOTEN by ebay rules, he leaves glowing feedback and gets sucked in by the ebay KoolAid BS they are doing something - HA. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: Dumb as dirt.

Hopefully other members far wiser and savvier will report paulkarjalainen and grampi_35 for shill bidding BAAAHGIN HUNTA Bunnies like ricochet and shill bidding up fake 1d blacks on both cases.

Some folks should never be let anywhere near a credit card. Truly.

All he has done is berated those here who saved him $US100. I have this "solid gold GENUEEEN Rolex" here, you can have for $US100 we saved you ricochet. I'll have it mailed to you from Sukhamvit Road Thailand. Ooops - I mean SIAM. :mrgreen:

Ebay LOVES folks like you - sadly.
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by ricochet »

There was and is absolutely no need for the name calling. All could have been handled in a much friendlier and diplomatic manner. Berate? Please which post did this happen? I only called out ill-behavior and unkindness.

I hope you enjoyed yourselves as it seems your lives have little other worthy happiness to focus on.

Please cancel my account as there is no need for me to remain on such an uncivil forum where the board owner, moderators, and admins can not even follow their own rules. Very sad. Respects.
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by Global Administrator »

"Unkindness"???????????????


We save you $US100, and not a word of thanks to anyone who saved you that here, but all you do is leave a glowing feedback for this crook, and whine here about our help and responses. :idea:

Savvier folks than you have reported these shill bidding, fake selling spivs, to save future clueless folks like you - from themselves.

Enjoy ebay. I am sure they are many more future great "BAAAHGINS" with your name written all over them! Some folks never learn. That is what keeps ebay strong.
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Re: GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by ricochet »

ricochet wrote:I sincerely appreciate the advice and certainly agree with it.

But I am failing to see where I laid blame on anyone nor where I was "Shooting the Messenger"???

I believe you jumped the gun on your first reply post with me thinking I was clowning around (which I was not) and I will certainly take it as that and let it be.
What?! I already posted my appreciation and have been civil throughout. I never blamed anyone nor did I berate anyone. I simply just didn't take the abuse that you were wanting to dish out. Why so confrontational? Anyways, we are beating a dead horse and it is very clear that I am no longer welcome so I will take my leave.

Please cancel the account.
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by Global Administrator »

Again - for real 1d Black collectors and all those who hate to see ebay fake sellers conning the newbies, and being active shill bidders between their accounts, please gets those reports in on these crooks - as those that were conned cheerfully leave glowing feedback after being ripped off, making a mockery of the feedback system -

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PENNY-BLACK-GB-1840-QUEEN-VICTORIA-Plate-3-Cat-300-/352439924008

More fake cancels on a totally fake inkjet printed 1d Black - ALL PENNY BLACK collectors please report this all to ebay, and the buyers of all this trash in recent weeks.

Active Shill bidding between the 2 accounts flogging this garbage. paulkarjalainen and grampi_35 are both shill bidding, and if reported ebay DO act on that usually.

Report all the current ones please, and the fake Albania overprints - crooks like him are a disgrace to ebay. The Bunnies are generally clueless so must be protected from themselves by more experienced eyes.

https://www.ebay.com/scw - there is space for 10,000 characters in your reply, so all the relevant info can be added. Unlike most ebay complaint forms that allow just 100 characters etc.

Ebay Rules insist he marks all fakes with the word REPLICA and offer them for sale AS replicas, or his account will be closed.

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-ite ... 7#section2

Ebay have revamped the rules re forged and faked and replica and counterfeit stamps.

Sellers now MUST mark fakes indelibly on reverse, and load a photo of that marking into the lot description.

Alterations (and that includes forged perfins, overprints like all the Albania and forged cancels like the 1d Blacks) and repairs MUST be noted now if known to seller, and sellers offering conga lines of the same fakes clearly DO know!

https://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/currstamps.html#replica_stamps

Image
Image
Also on EVERY ebay lot there is a “Report Item” icon – whether the sale is ended or not.

Reporting that via the simple drop-down options as shown below is a 5 second operation -
Image

Image
If ebay gets 5 or 10 reports on any given items they WILL generally take notice. They usually warn the user and remove the lot. Sellers getting several such removed lots are in trouble.

Let’s use ‘people power’ to stop this material getting offered.

Everyone “hoping” others act, will get nothing done - like most things in life! It takes teamwork and a Community Spirit, and the dodgy and misleading lots will be FAR less.

ebay now have set up a fast new portal JUST to report suspected sellers of forged stamps at - https://www.tinyurl.com/ebayfakes - also found at - https://www.ebay.com/scw - there is space for 10,000 characters in your reply, so all the relevant info can be added. Unlike most ebay complaint forms that allow just 100 characters etc.

Please take a moment to do BOTH ….. do the “Report Item” drop-down, and give a summary on the link above.

Most likely they will go to 2 different ebay staffers, and that is double trouble for the fakers.

Some staffers ignore such stuff, others are more pro-active – it is a lottery.

However several reports on any single item can be seen by all staffers looking at it, and that generally gets some action.

Even if 4 staffers have ignored it, the 5th staffer might see 5 reports and decide to act etc. :mrgreen:

"People Power" - never under-estimate the value of it! 8)

Glen
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Ebay's OWN clear written rule is that Counterfeit Stamps are NOT allowed on ebay. Period. Remind them of their OWN rule, and it often does wonders. The average ebay Robot Drone in Bangladesh or Bombay or Bogan has never heard of that rule - REMIND them. :mrgreen:
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by Global Administrator »

ricochet holds the distinction for being the most fervent Bunny so far, and paid the most - look at the conga line of this CR*P sold this month alone from 1 seller - grampi_35 - all for laser printed copies -

https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/grampi_35/m.html?item=3524437776 ... 6732.m1684

Don't any of these newbie bidders ever bother look at recent past sales for who they are about to leap in salivating and bidding madly on current apparent BAAHHRGINS?????
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by johnrcrow »

I thought that the aptly named ricochet was brave to let us in on this obvious scam.

He asked ´fake` and got his answer in spades.

Little did he suspect or welcome the aggressive rejection of his query.

Ricochet, please endeavour to dawdle more in Stampboards.

There were good points made in this case and it emphasises the care needed when buying stamps, a lesson then on not what to do.

In the end it was resolved I think.

You will always get some good advice here even if cloaked in various degrees of mockery.

There are many experts lingering in Stampboards and it would be a pity that you are hurt by the tone of some answers.

I think almost everyone, including myself, has been bitten in here a few times,

I find it fascinating that people take time to make up such tapestries of covers. Of course they are crooks and realise that greed comes into play for not so experienced collectors. The starting price is a give away surely apart from the, in retrospect now, the obvious clangers made on covers.

Maybe collecting these would be a hobby though not at the prices they go for with the bunny brigade and false bidder hikes.

I am advocating staying with this community then.

What of your (ricochet´s) collecting preferences?

John
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by ViccyVFU »

Global Administrator wrote: We save you $US100 .......
I think we can expect the long term savings "to run to a large multiple of that if the OP takes heed of any of the advice offered free here, and applies it to subsequent purchases".

This whole thread is enigma to me.

A person who knows about ray flaws, and letter positionings and the like, to a level they feel confident having a stab at plating, yet red flag after red flag, which would make most run a mile, just increasing the desireability to him.

11 minutes after posting, he gets a response. Its the right call, as the stamp is wrong, the cancel appears rubber, and they simply didn't have that type of manila paper in the 1840's.

If he had doubts, then best check that sheet position against reference shots of the letters (widely available and downloadable):

Image

On seeing those check letter positions are none of the above, you know its a fake.

Then there is your eBay due diligence checks. Seeing how many they have sold before - not just similar, but exactly the same is also a big red flag.

Seeing that your underbidder cancelled a bid when they accidentally outbid you - another warning sign.

Listening to eBay, and taking seriously their view that "giving good feedback is the best way to get a refund"? Seriously? Your refund was never in doubt, if you paid by Paypal, so why sell out your integrity by sailing others onto the rocks (by your glowing endorsement) - It makes no sense to me at all.

If there is a definining positive characteristic of Stampboards with regards to this sort of scam, its that we give advice quickly, unambiguously, and follow it up with actions to get the warnings out there.

That your pride takes a dip (for a day) means that your wallet doesn't take a hammering repeatedly over several years. That is the unfortunately mean spirited world we live in, full of crooks getting away with it because people are too concerned about their bragging rights than admitting they have been duped.

It appears that everyone nowadays considers themselves a great eBay buyer, and that their "bargains" are squirreled away into collections that rarely see a professional review them "until the great day of reckoning" (and the estate is liquidated). All that scrimping and saving as a pensioner turns into anguish and resentment of the will beneficiaries when they realise someone out there has methodically filleted their inheritance.

There are bargains out there, and today was "an ordeal by fire to give you the necessary lessons in how to do your homework to track them down". I hope you remain a member, and track down something to impress us all with using lessons learned, because everyone here likes a success story.

But never, not ever, even jokingly, leave positive feedback for a crook.
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by pertinax »

Even now, as I type this and as y'all are reading it later, there is someone out there making these!

Forgery - yes, of course, but VERY recently made.


Scott
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by Global Administrator »

pertinax wrote:
Even now, as I type this and as y'all are reading it later, there is someone out there making these!

Forgery - yes, of course, but VERY recently made.

Scott
Yes Scott, as I posted the very moment this nonsense was posted by our savvy Ebay Expert Buyer ricochet who speculated on the plate numbers (!!!) and was telling us it was old, my nose said as old as 2018.

He very stupidly left these shill bidding conmen glowing POSITIVE feedback - hope the Penny Black experts like you report these cons, to save an army of future ricochets from themselves, who droolingly buy $1 curios for $US100, and feel delighted with their buying skills.
Global Administrator wrote:
I am amazed even ebayer buyers would not spot at a glance those corner letters were absurd beyond belief, but nothing surprises me these days with BAAHHHGINNN HUNTAS.

I trust you left glowing feedback?

As to it being a very 'old fake' my carbon dating nose suggests it is probably as old as 2018.
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by ricochet »

johnrcrow wrote:I thought that the aptly named ricochet was brave to let us in on this obvious scam.

He asked ´fake` and got his answer in spades.

Little did he suspect or welcome the aggressive rejection of his query.

Ricochet, please endeavour to dawdle more in Stampboards.

There were good points made in this case and it emphasises the care needed when buying stamps, a lesson then on not what to do.

In the end it was resolved I think.

You will always get some good advice here even if cloaked in various degrees of mockery.

There are many experts lingering in Stampboards and it would be a pity that you are hurt by the tone of some answers.

I think almost everyone, including myself, has been bitten in here a few times,

I find it fascinating that people take time to make up such tapestries of covers. Of course they are crooks and realise that greed comes into play for not so experienced collectors. The starting price is a give away surely apart from the, in retrospect now, the obvious clangers made on covers.

Maybe collecting these would be a hobby though not at the prices they go for with the bunny brigade and false bidder hikes.

I am advocating staying with this community then.

What of your (ricochet´s) collecting preferences?

John
John - I appreciate your much more civil and friendly response and because of it have reconsidered staying. Again, I am sincerely looking for a friendly group of fellow stamp collectors to chat and discuss this amazingly relaxing hobby with. My current collecting preferences are U.S. Battleship Revenues - Series of 1898 (cancels study); any/all postal history; and dare I say it: Penny Blacks, Reds, and Two Pence Blues.

To All - I would like to clear the air and say that not once have I disagreed with and/or refuted any of the information provided but rather the way in which it was given and presented to me. I still do not believe it was at all necessary to be delivered in such a mocking, degrading manner along with "name calling"... it was very much taken as an unprovoked "personal attack". I spent my entire life and career overseas standing up to "bullies & ignorants" why would I tolerate or condone it on a stamp collecting forum? Not once have I blamed anyone for my error and poor eyesight; "killed the messenger"; nor berated anyone in the thread as so accused... I am baffled by this actually and fail to see where I might have made this error? I do know that I remained civil and polite throughout the thread and will remain so on this forum as accordingly. I remain appreciative of the advice and information provided, it's just that I am not willing to give a warm thank you due to the nature of it's presentation.


As per the topic of the thread; here is the latest (I dearly hope this doesn't set angry monkeys upon me again):

I have no way of verifying any of this as eBay wouldn't divulge the offending seller or victim buyer account name(s) but I thought it best for me to share this information here as accordingly.

eBay has informed me that the seller was "cleared" as not being the "originator" of the fake item that I was refunded on. This seller, as well as two (2) other sellers had recently purchased what eBay said were "suspect" items from a single source. An individual(s) whom was found to be using multiple accounts and whom was possibly interfering with bidding on many of these items that were being resold. This and all associated accounts have been subsequently closed and banned by eBay. All buyers of "suspect" items have been contacted and will be refunded.

I don't take this to mean that my concerned seller was not somehow "involved"... he may have been, but there remains an inkling, however very slim, that the seller was/is an innocent, unaware buyer and seller.

At this point I believe it fair that I disclose that I have been given a USD 175 one-item coupon from eBay for my reporting and aiding and "remaining patient and polite" throughout the resolution process. I guess being the "dopey" nice guy paid off this time... but I do recognize that my luck could/can run out so I will be more cautious in the future ;-)

Cheers and respects to all.


BTW: The eBay coupon was used to purchase a Penny Black on cover from Mark Bloxham Stamps Limited whom I have bought some other nice items. I'll surely share a scan when it arrives.
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by johnrcrow »

ricochet I am glad that you are staying.

As I said, all seems resolved and there are lessons learned.

No real surprises and a good outcome from eBay.

Tone concerning any critical comments is all important. Smacking down on apparent ignorance is hardly useful to anyone, however good the advice.

I suspect that frustrations do happen with experts when it is perceived that posters are messing around and this is fairly common with new posters where suspicions linger as to the motives behind some posts.

Get a thread started on the covers etc., or join in with a current one needing a boost.

There is a great deal of information in Stampboards and it is well worth looking it up.

I can say that I too have been mauled on several occasions but still linger here, after all one man´s opinion is just that.

I look forward to seeing you deliver here.

Learning is an endless process.

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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by vikingeck »

Hi ricochet ! I can't email you direct from the boards yet as the link is not there .

However I repeat what John crow has advised. Hang in there , in spite of the heavy attack earlier, there is good stuff from sympathetic members here

I've also had it in the neck several times, but just attribute the heavy stuff to typical Aussie manners ! :lol: :lol:

They call it "plain speaking" ...Huh! :roll: :roll:

There is some decent and thoughtful advice to be had.
whatever it is -------it's better than a poke in eye with a wet umbrella !
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by Global Administrator »

ricochet wrote:but there remains an inkling, however very slim, that the seller was/is an innocent, unaware buyer and seller.
And the moon is made of Green Cheese. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

It was clearly pointed out to you that you bought off a seller whose associated account ramped you up to $US100, there was no other bidder, and YOUR seller in turn ramped others up for the same fake 1d Blacks on his other shill account. Dumber than bricks. You are still too naive to see that reality. Hope the Nigerians never get your email,- Gawd help you. :idea:

The Ebay Forgery Factory in full swing.

The ebay response as always is a total fictional CROCK.

It we can clearly see you were shilled, and your seller shilled up his other account, so can ebay, and so can you, if you were less trusting of BS responses from ebay, and more street savvy. Ebay is populated with 1000s of Bunny Eating Vicious Sharks. You got bit.

Have ebay done one thing about stopping them - clearly not. They make MONEY each time a Bunny gets devoured. They have no interest in stamp buyers getting ripped off.

ebay shonks paulkarjalainen and grampi_35 clearly are the same animal.
Global Administrator wrote:
Dumb move #3 for doing the most rank amateur thing on ebay - playing juvenile footsies bidding up for days - he started low and kept on his crazed path upward. Talk about show your hand to the shillers. :roll:

Image

Who joined him on the ever increasing upward newbie bidder madness bidding duel?

none other than a***n (12) - who I'll bet the house is our fellow faker above - paulkarjalainen who ALSO has 12 feedback - amazingly.

And guess which shill bidder was pushing up the Bunnies on this also fake 1d Black from paulkarjalainen - lets see a***5(36) ...... who I will bet the house is our friend grampi_35 - who has 36 feedbacks as I type - one from our Bunny Buddy here, ricochet

https://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/173490835105?item=17349083 ... %20(36%20)

So instead of poor old gullible ricochet reporting these 2 spivs for shill bidding each other for selling the same crude fake 1d Blacks - 100% VERBOTEN by ebay rules, he leaves glowing feedback and gets sucked in by the ebay KoolAid BS they are doing something - HA. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: Dumb as dirt.

Hopefully other members far wiser and savvier will report paulkarjalainen and grampi_35 for shill bidding BAAAHGIN HUNTA Bunnies like ricochet and shill bidding up fake 1d blacks on both cases.

Some folks should never be let anywhere near a credit card. Truly.

Ebay LOVES folks like you - sadly.
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by ricochet »

There were three (3) bidders; I believe you missed a***m. Nonetheless, I do see your point but don't all online auctions run the risk of such foolery, yes?

Also, please note that on eBay after one set's their first initial bid one then may set a maximum auto-rebid amount which I had set as GDP 75. So there wasn't a bidding duel but rather an automated counter bid that ended at GDP 75 after I had set the initial bid of GDP 8 and gone to sleep. I never looked at the bid again, nor did I manually rebid ever, until I received a notice a day and half later telling me that I had won the item. I hope that makes sense.

Maybe I am completely missing the point. For a legitimate item are you recommending to bid at the very end of the auction like say a minute or so before closing? If so, that will prove to be difficult for my timezone sometimes as many of the auctions unfortunately end in the middle of my night :-(
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by The Pom »

ricochet wrote:
Maybe I am completely missing the point. For a legitimate item are you recommending to bid at the very end of the auction like say a minute or so before closing? If so, that will prove to be difficult for my timezone sometimes as many of the auctions unfortunately end in the middle of my night :-(
You can use software to bid automatically at a pre-set time, no need to get up in the night.

Google for "sniping tool".
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by GlenStephens »

We have posted here a MILLION times than only a novice Bunny bids for days ahead tipping off the seller and his gaggle of shill bidders that some newbie is bidding like a manic man possessed. And bringing out all the other assorted drop kicks who like playing silly games with low feedback newbies like you.

All savvy bidders without exception leave snipe bids days out.

www.gixen.com and others do it for free. At 3am, 6am, or midnight.

See something you want that is at 99p - so bid 20 quid or whatever for it, and forget it. Gixen executes your bid remotely at 4 seconds to close. Fast and reliable. Most of us use these things.

The owner's Shill bidders have no clue you even plan to bid then. The other clueless ebayers can't play Primary School total amateur hour footsies with you either. WIN-WIN - for all except the crooks.

I you can't easily decide a week out, if something is worth 10 or 20 or 30 or 50 quid to you - you need a new hobby. :idea:

All comes down to experience in the field you collect, and common sense and brains really. Which is why almost no ebay buyers follow this sound advice. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by ricochet »

The Pom & Glen Stephens

Outstanding solution and indeed a smarter way to bid I agree! Thank you very much for sharing that link and the bidding information about "sniping". I have downloaded gixen.com and registered. Not complicated at all; amazing. Thanks again gents for the helpful advice.
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by peterh »

Seems little doubt as Glen says, that the two sellers paulkarjalainen and grampi_35 are the same person or very closely associated and are knowingly peddling forgeries.

grampi_35 still has one as an active listing, and appears to have sold 12 of the fakes, although some appear to be identical items. Has one other positive feedback in Italian.

paulkarjalainen has sold 5 similar items.

Both appear also to be avoiding selling within the UK by charging postage varying between £30 and £150 to UK (surely against eBay rules?), but £1.85 to the rest of the world.

grampi_35 also has this lot:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-populer-Stamp-ON-LETTER-gb-18 ... 2438265196

which allegedly consists of 5 different penny black covers priced between £ 390-440.

These images have ben lifted from other sellers, including two very distinctive covers (with Chiselhurst and Castleton markings) currently listed by reputable eBay dealer samwells-covers.

In other words, a total crook and scammer !
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by GlenStephens »

ricochet wrote:The Pom & Glen Stephens

Outstanding solution and indeed a smarter way to bid I agree! Thank you very much for sharing that link, and the bidding information about "sniping".

I have downloaded http://www.gixen.com and registered. Not complicated at all; amazing. Thanks again gents for the helpful advice.
Yes, sorry you took the guidance here in the wrong way initially. In our 11 years here, we have seen a THOUSAND similar stories, trust me. Many pulled up stumps and stalked off in high dudgeon, wallowing in outrage. But luckily, most stayed around and learnt a lot. :lol:

Several of those posting above, with post counts in the very many 1000s now, would be surprised (and shocked!) to go back and read their initial few dozen outraged posts here, and suspension notes, and Mod comments on file. I remember them well. 8)

Yes using snipe programs is a very savvy way to buy. It is actually the ONLY sane way to buy on ebay.

Bid 20 quid out a week before, and totally forget the item. You do not get tangled up with shiller accounts owned by the sellers, and other "footsie" bidders then.

You either win it, or you do not, but can't be shamelessly shilled up endlessly, as you clearly were.

EVERY stamp buyer worth their salt, knows WHAT any item is worth to THEM.

If you see a nice 1840 2d Blue you like starting at 99p, bid 200 quid and forget about it. You might get it for 100 quid, or nearer the 200 quid, or you might miss out. Life is too short to be ripped off in bidding.

Or you just it outright in the first place from a real dealer like Mark Bloxham etc, and the following caution advice does not apply.

It MAY of course be repaired, re-backed, or otherwise fiddled with, but that is another huge reality of buying "BAAAHGINS" from newbie amateur sellers on ebay.

CHECK items the seller has already sold. That simple thing would have seen you steer well clear of these spivs. Low feedback sellers under a few 100, also be doubly suspicious.

Glen
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by steevh »

I saw this Penny Black on cover on sale with suspiciously large margins, and it reminded me of this thread...

I see he got a mention earlier.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-most-popular-stamp-penny-Blac ... SwTWZbj7ft
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by Global Administrator »

steevh wrote:I saw this Penny Black on cover on sale with suspiciously large margins, and it reminded me of this thread...

I see he got a mention earlier.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-most-popular-stamp-penny-Blac ... SwTWZbj7ft
And your excuse for lazily not adding an IMAGE, or even seller name as our rules clearly require is? In a month or so when this fake is sold to another drooling Bunny, no-one will have a clue what it looked like, or who the seller was. :roll: :roll:
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by Princestamps »

Ricochet - (Lord forgive me for what I am about to say) - I wholeheartedly agree with the sheriff and everything he says here!

1. Why on God's green earth would you pay $100 for a badly made and dangeorus fake, bunnies and mugus (Fools) like you feed the feebay scammers. The clown who made this fake junk is now laughing all the way to the bank.

A genuine Penny Black on a piece can be had for only a bit more and a serviceable 1 or 2 margin Penny Black can be yours for under $100 (I have one that is not bad and complete and it cost me NZ$15 or US $10, maybe 250 Baht)

2. Like sheriff says, report these fakes, don't buy them.

3. Read a catalogue, they are everywhere even in Siam (sic - It was changed to Thailand back in 1939!).
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by miketan »

There is still a chance to get back the money since it is 30 day money back.
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by Allanswood »

Perhaps recent posters should actually read the thread a little closer? The item had already been refunded a while ago.
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by Global Administrator »

Just checked in on this thread to see what our 1d Black fakers were up to now.

On a quick click on many of their links above it seems both accounts got wiped in the end? All ''link not found'' notices.

Seems like one of them changed ebay user handle to pakar_18

Maybe they sold all their EBARAREETEES as a job lot to ''Siam''? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by ricochet »

Global Administrator wrote:Maybe they sold all their EBAREETEES as a job lot to ''Siam''? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Nope, I sure didn't buy them. You taught me a lesson :wink:
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by passport_collect »

This thread is quite entertaining.

"Siam" is an anagram of "I am s..." Coincidence?
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by Princestamps »

This thread is hilarious. The OP I thought may have been doing this as a joke thread and perhaps it was some humour.

He says he is old, well he must be ancient considering Siam has not existed since 1939 or 80 years ago. And buying that fake piece with a February 1840 cancel.

I am amazed he is literate as he would have to either have an IQ of 65 or less or be a Trump supporter to buy that thing.
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by Goodwin »

Princestamps, thanks for another great contribution.

After your roasting here today: http://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=86655#p6072923 I'd probably keep it buttoned!

Mainly collecting GB, working back from QEII. Often side-tracked into Japan, GB-era Hong Kong definitives, Ceylon and Australia pre-decimal.
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by blackrom »

:lol:
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by Wentworth »

.

Hello all, I’m aware this is an old thread but it’s the only one I have found.

Apart from being really entertaining, you all clearly know your stuff. So here goes:

I found this penny black on eBay. At a first glance it looks really special, but the current bidding price is too good to be true. I don’t know much about penny blacks and can not tell if this is a fake.

The dark grey back to the stamp looks a bit suspicious, and there are also a couple of white marks around the edges on the face, as if the top surface has come away revealing something a lot lighter underneath.

After a little bit of digging I came across a seller of a Stonehaven penny black. In their listing they included an image of a previously sold fine example Stonehaven penny black, that they compared theirs too. This example Stonehaven looks REALLY similar to the penny black that is currently listed on eBay!

Is this a BAAHHGINN or a fake? Any thoughts??!

Cheers


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The only description given
Image 1
Image 1
Image 2
Image 2
Image 3
Image 3
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Image 4
Close up of stamp in question currently on eBay
Close up of stamp in question currently on eBay
The similar image of a fine Stonehaven stamp sold previously
The similar image of a fine Stonehaven stamp sold previously
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Re: My $US100 GB 1840 "Penny Black" from ebay - Plate? Fake?

Post by Allanswood »

They cannot be the same stamp, unless someone decided to destroy the value of it by trimming the margins and taking a couple of chunks out of the edges.

Greg - Looking for Goulburn Australia Cancels and Grangemouth Scotland Cancels and Covers
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