Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

We all have and handle these from time to time. "Back of book", Revenues, "Cinderellas", duty stamps and all kinds of other stamp like labels. Discuss them all HERE!

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

Australian Geographic:

aust geographic.png

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by Tod.Moore »

.
This one from 1900 is a bit crude and ‘generic’, but it is in the same category as the 1940 AIF stamp design.

Presumably the three Boer War soldiers were actual living persons of the non-royal variety. Hopefully they made it back.

Here is the link to Glen’s 2014 Stampboards post, with the original image:

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=58152

Cheers. Tod. :)



1900 Victoria Boer War Charity stamp, showing living persons.
1900 Victoria Boer War Charity stamp, showing living persons.

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

.
Added this superb 1900 QUEENSLAND Charity pair to stock today - one assumes the figures were modelled on real soldiers of the day?

Paige Gleeson can perhaps do her next PHD tracking them down!


Image
QUEENSLAND 1900 Boer War Patriotic Fund Charity stamp set: One of the numerically scarcest issues from any State, in latter 19th Century. Only 4,020 sets were ever sold (v/s 250,000 each of the later 1913 Roos top values!) and most of those 4,020 were used.
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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by Allanswood »

One of the "heads" on the doors of the NSW Library is taken from the photo of Gwoja and was designed by sculptor Daphne Mayo

b020f8d2d5da9b6c540ef33678063dfe8b1fb3bc_1392920501.jpg


I'm trying to locate a larger image and isolate which one is Jimmy.

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

MJ's pet wrote:
16 Aug 2021 17:19
Australian Geographic:


Image


https://www.australiangeographic.com.au/topics/history-cultu ... ungurrayi/


While there was a half-hearted "correction" to The Conversation website yesterday, The Australian Geographic website remains uncorrected.

The Australian Geographic is a real business that charges real people real money.

AG supplements this model by taking free content where it can.

The way that The Conversation is deliberately and purposefully set by by the Australian University partners is that websites can take and re-publish content for free using the "Creative Commons Licence" ("This article is republished from The Conversation under a Creative Commons license.").

So what universities have created is a model where their content on The Conversation can be picked up and spread all over the net and other media. For free.

Indeed, this is what they hope will happen so their gospel word is spread far and wide and their names are put up in lights. This is all fine and dandy until something goes wrong.

But the thing is, Australian Geographic are still liable for their breaches.

AG links back to the original article on The Conversation with the "correction", but AG can not be arsed correcting their own site. But readers who do not click on the link are blissfully unaware of the correction. Why would a reader even bother clicking on the link to the original article at the base of the page when they have just read it all on the AG site?? Not good enough. :twisted: :twisted:

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by Allanswood »

It's not just AG, that "news" feed has been republished across multiple sites - the Uni of TAS for one.

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

That is a very good point. Can everyone compile a list of web links to this newsfeed and add them for reference.

Link to the UTAS one:

https://www.utas.edu.au/alumni/news-and-publications/news-it ... jungurrayi

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

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paige gleeson jimmy tweet.png
Paige Gleeson - Twitter - 16 August 2021


paige tweets protected.png
Paige Gleeson - Twitter - 17 August 2021


https://twitter.com/paige_gleeson?lang=en

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

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This gets much worse.

In addition to the University posting it on their website ("Published on: 10 Jun 2021 10:58am"), here: https://www.utas.edu.au/alumni/news-and-publications/news-it ... jungurrayi

they have also sent it out in the June 2021 edition of the UTAS Alumni and Friends e-newsletter:

"This article featured in the monthly eNews Alumni and Friends, if you are a member of the University of Tasmania alumni community and would like to receive this publication, please email us at Alumni.Office@utas.edu.au".

This newsletter was emailed to thousands, if not tens of thousands of people.

Thanks to anonymous for the following confirmatory information. It was emailed to people on the Alumni and Friends list in early June 2021:

UTAS ALUMNI & Friends Newsletter June 2021.png

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

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Regarding the ABC Radio interview which aired on 10 July 2021, and which is still on the ABC website in its entirety: https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/weekendevenings/why-th ... -/13470322

complaint should be made to the Legal Department of the ABC. Link here: https://about.abc.net.au/talk-to-the-abc/editorial-complaints/complaints-process/

Legal matters

In regard to legal matters, please contact the ABC National Switchboard on 139 994 for further information, or write to ABC Legal GPO Box 9994, Sydney, 2001.

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by Tod.Moore »

Hello everybody. Here is Glen’s ‘full length origin photo’ placed in the middle, between the two images from Walkabout magazine, 1936 (and 1950). All are taken from earlier posts in this Stampboards thread. Both the 1938 Geelong cinderella and the 1950/1952 Australian stamps appear to have been taken from the 1936 Walkabout magazine images.

Gwoja Tjungurrayi, three photos.
Gwoja Tjungurrayi, three photos.


These images show Gwoja Tjungurrayi from both sides, holding the same items in the same hands, and were likely taken at almost exactly the same time. Glen’s ‘full length’ sepia photo shows Gwoja in realistic detail, including some strong scarring on his leg. It is a very impressive picture, and gave us a very impressive stamp.

Cheers. Tod. :)

1952 Australian 2/6 stamp, Gwoja Tjungurrayi.
1952 Australian 2/6 stamp, Gwoja Tjungurrayi.

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

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On the issue of the University re-publishing the articles in question - or in lay terms, "spraying them all over the internet" - here is another example, not corrected:

The Aboriginal History article posted on the UTAS Friends of History Facebook page on 26 May 2021.

utas Friends of History Facebook.png
Last edited by MJ's pet on 18 Aug 2021 14:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

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And the above reproduced on a website called GLOBAL UNIS. Which directs to the free Australian National University site, which has no correction.

utas global unis.png

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

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Another change has been made to The Conversation piece.

Glen's image, the 1938 stamp in Brown has been dropped in two places. Substituted with the stamp in "Buff" with selvedge from the Aboriginal History article.

The source of the illustrations is now given as "Author. Author Provided".

The problem is this is still not adequate referencing. :twisted: :twisted: Gleeson has still not said :idea: exactly where :idea: she obtained the image from. Surely it is not her her own collection, for it would have been referenced as "Author's Collection". She previously referenced it (the stamp printed in Brown) as "Private Collection" instead of Stampboards.com/Stamp News Australasia. The first "Author" in "Author. Author Provided" actually communicates that the Author made or created the item, like a painting for example. The Conversation probably do not intend to convey this. The words "Author Provided" are meaningless and a statement of the obvious. It seems rather like taking a photo of the Mona Lisa, then submitting it and saying "Author. Author Provided". This does not tell the reader at all where the image came from.

What The Conversation are saying here, in plain English is: "The author supplied everything. This is not our fault." They are throwing others under the speeding bus.

It seems like The Conversation are madly scrambling to try and extricate themselves $$$$$ from this shocking mess.

Convo original.JPG
The Conversation, 1 June 2021 - "Private Collection"

Conversation 18 Aug 2021 Author Provided heading.png
The Conversation, 18 August 2021 - "Author. Author Provided"

Conversation 18 Aug 2021 Author Provided.png
The Conversation, 18 August 2021 - "Author. Author Provided"


The Conversation are making some ham-fisted attempts to fix this but they are still failing.

The text still says:

"While researching images of Aboriginal people on stamps, in an online stamp collecting forum, I realised the man on the Geelong stamp was unmistakably Tjungurrayi, pictured 12 years before the “One Pound Jimmy” stamp."

At the base of the page is this following "correction" (and that word is used loosely):

"Update: after publication The Conversation was alerted that a 2010 blog post by Glen Stephens had previously identified Gwoya Tjungurrayi on the 1938 Geelong stamp. The article has been reworded accordingly."

The text still looks the same. Can anybody see where "The article has been reworded accordingly." ?? :roll: :roll:
Last edited by MJ's pet on 18 Aug 2021 15:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by towradji »

Not sure about $$$$, an apology, yes, corrections, yes, $$$$$ a very long way to go before they materialise

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

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The University had Income in 2020 of three-quarters of a $Billion$ dollars.

Just think about that for a second. :idea: :idea:

UTAS financial report income 2020.png
https://www.utas.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/1461528/ ... rt_web.pdf


What do apologies (not that there has been one) and so-called "corrections" really mean from 1000-pound gorillas?

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by towradji »

I am not saying that they can’t afford it. Damages in these matters are extremely difficult to prove. This thread when read in total supports the proposition of high offence but small financial pain.

Still, what would I know.

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by Allanswood »

She's obviously not even a hobby collector - the article still says in various places, that it is a "postage stamp" when it's not. It's a Cinderella - they've been called Cinderella's for decades as anybody doing research on a stamp website would so easily read.

Maybe we should help her along and find the very first Aboriginal (identified or not) depicted on an Australian or State stamp, or Cinderella, Stamp Duty etc.

I have images from a few of the 1911 design competition that have Aboriginals as the theme of the essay entry.


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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

Allanswood wrote:
18 Aug 2021 15:46
She's obviously not even a hobby collector - the article still says in various places, that it is a "postage stamp" when it's not. It's a Cinderella - they've been called Cinderella's for decades as anybody doing research on a stamp website would so easily read.

Maybe we should help her along and find the very first Aboriginal (identified or not) depicted on an Australian or State stamp, or Cinderella, Stamp Duty etc.

I have images from a few of the 1911 design competition that have Aboriginals as the theme of the essay entry.




All of this is very true. All of the problems could have been avoided in the first place by asking for permission to use the said image and attributing to identification of Jimmy to Glen Stephens instead of claiming credit for it. But the whole new Jimmy 1938 stamp was pretty much the thrust of both articles wasn't it? She would have found that everyone would have been happy to help her and direct her to images and sources that she was not aware of.

She deduces that the stamp is not a postage stamp as it does not have a denomination. Yes, but this could have been found out by looking at any stamp catalogue. Does she really think she might have found a regularly-issued, face different stamp unknown to the rest of civilisation for 83 years? Only to conclude is was something else? She is not aware of the requirement that all Australian stamps must have the word "Australia?" on it.

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

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The Aboriginal History article asserts that the the city of Geelong created the "stamp", but provides no footnote for the information. An assumption is made:

"It was produced by the city of Geelong purely as a collector’s item." (p98)

This is not a sound assumption to make. For example, as people here will only know too well, the 150th anniversary of the "settlement" of Australia in 1938 was celebrated by the production of souvenir stamps and envelopes by all sorts of people, traders, and government, not just the City of Sydney. How can Gleeson exclude the possibility that the 1938 Gwoya was produced by a private citizen in the Geelong area?

The Jwoya cinderella, it seems, was produced by the Centenary Council of Geelong for the centenary celebrations. This is new information. You read it here first. :idea:

They approached the PMG for a regular stamp and were apparently rebuffed, as we know no regular stamp was issued for the event. Shepparton was also celebrating a centenary in 1938. The Shepparton Centenary Council also approached the PMG, obviously inspired by Geelong's efforts. No postage stamp was issued for them either:

Image
Shepparton Advertiser, 8 Aug 1938 p2



If research was done to follow this line of enquiry through, then there likely is correspondence in the Australia Post archives, or in the National Archives, about the Geelong proposal. The request for a stamp was made and possibly even a design suggestion. This we do not know until a file is found. The PMG must have had a reason for the rejection which would be noted somewhere. Probably they did not want to get into the business of (expensively) producing a centenary stamp for every little town in Australia that wanted one.

Before someone says the Geelong Centenary Council and the Geelong Municipal Council are the same thing, they are not. They are different.

Again the author could have been directed to archives to search any surviving files. People would have happily directed the author to Richard Breckon, Australia Post historian in Melbourne, who has acted in that position for many, many decades. He would have been happy to assist, I feel sure.

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by Temora22 »

towradji wrote:
18 Aug 2021 15:45
Damages in these matters are extremely difficult to prove.
Correct.

Regards,

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

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MJ's pet wrote:
17 Aug 2021 11:19


This gets much worse.

In addition to the University posting it on their website ("Published on: 10 Jun 2021 10:58am"), here: https://www.utas.edu.au/alumni/news-and-publications/news-it ... jungurrayi

they have also sent it out in the June 2021 edition of the UTAS Alumni and Friends e-newsletter:

"This article featured in the monthly eNews Alumni and Friends, if you are a member of the University of Tasmania alumni community and would like to receive this publication, please email us at Alumni.Office@utas.edu.au".

This newsletter was emailed to thousands, if not tens of thousands of people.

Thanks to anonymous for the following confirmatory information. It was emailed to people on the Alumni and Friends list in early June 2021:

Image

Yes they repeated her lies -

Paige 1.JPG
.
paige 2.JPG



I am slowly getting through to them, and this response below was not acceptable. Gleeson is also fibbing to them it seems! She has a hide as thick as a Rhino it appears.

Dear Glen,

Thank you for contacting us regarding this story. We have contacted the author for clarification. She has reported that she was not aware of your post and identification of Gwoja Tjungurrayi as the subject of the 1938 stamp.

The author saw the stamp reproduced in stamp collecting forums and on google images while searching for info about the 1950 stamp and others featuring Aboriginal subject matter.

She was the first to formally identify it in a peer-reviewed academic publication and wrote about it as a poster stamp and its connection to Walkabout.

Also, she reports that she took a photo of the stamp herself (which she used for her journal article here) but downloaded a clearer image of the stamp from google images for The Conversation story. Our apologies that this image appears to be your photograph, used without permission.

Next steps:

- We amend the wording in the story to say that the author is the first to identify Gwoya Tjungurrayi as the subject of the 1938 stamp in an academic publication.
- We replace the lead image with the author's photograph of the stamp.
- We add a line to the end of the story that reads: Update: after publication The Conversation was alerted that a 2010 blog post by Glen Stephens had previously identified Gwoya Tjungurrayi. The article has been reworded accordingly.
- We inform republishers of these changes.

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.

Yours sincerely,

Lucy
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Senior Deputy Section Editor - Arts + Culture, The Conversation

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by Allanswood »

Did they miss the multi-page article published in "Stamp News" and other "peer" philatelic magazines 11 years ago?

"Searching online for other images"
I do a lot of searching to.... and.... the only hits for this image are.... SB and her article, with SB being 11 years ago.
The SB images have been there for years!

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

.
This article has been there for 11 years - first google match, from when I discovered the MUH 1938 Geelong stamp in an Estate, and I clearly was the FIRST to ID that "Jimmy" was depicted on it, and the first to scan and load a colour image of it.

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=21489

This Paige Gleeson person is just fibbing when she states she was not aware of that, and the direct connection.

Whether UTAS awards Phd Degrees to students who absolutely lie in writing when caught out red-handed on Phd submissions, only they can answer. :!:

Glen


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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

Allanswood wrote:
14 Aug 2021 17:28

However this image below of Tjungurrayi (Jimmy) and a fellow tribesman, Woritarinja, could easily (to me) have been used for the drawing and coin and simply got the 2 men's names swapped around.

Paige Gleeson ALSO states with absolute certainty it is Tjungurrayi/Jimmy depicted on the $2 coin. Another of her main "original research" claims. Royal Australia Mint states categorically it is not him.

Even if she is correct, she was again scooped by many years - by the DailyMail in the UK of all places in 2015!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5383491/The-REAL-story-man-2-coins.html

The images I have seen of Jimmy has him with a rather short chin beard.

Some men just do not grow long or bushy beards. Jimmy also has a rather wispy moustache and modest sideburns in the images I have seen. Some men grow thick bushy moustaches, some do not.

It matters not to me, but if I were a betting man, I'd suggest it is far more likely to have been based on Woritarinja than Jimmy. There certainly is zero EVIDENCE it was based on Jimmy, that I can see.


s-l1600uu.png
.
Capture.JPG
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2.2.One Pound Jimmy stamp.jpg
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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

In my post above about the Shepparton Advertiser the image got lost. Apologies. Here it is again. Could the mods please post that into the appropriate place and then delete this post. Thank You.

Commemorative Stamp Shepparton Advertiser 8 Aug 1938 p2.jpg

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

On the issue of the ID of the man on the $2 coin: It looks like Woritarinja has chest scars in the photo although they are faint. If the Mint is to be believed and the portrait is a combination of elements, what parts of the coin portrait are Gowja?

This seems a real missed opportunity to interview people at the Mint and examine their files.

The other thing is, what research has appeared about the design of the 1988 $2 coin in Coin & Banknote Magazine etc.? This research avenue also appears completely ignored.

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

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On the $2 coin, here is an extract from the Treasury Annual Report 1986/87:

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY. Annual Report 1986-87 The Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia Presented 10 December 1987. Ordered to be printed 18 December 1987. Parliamentary Paper No.435/1987. Image 67

https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-2013258678/view?partId=nla.obj-2014142866#page/n0/mode/1up

RAM Annual Report PP 435 of 1987 Pmage 67.png
Department of Treasury, Annual Report 1986-87


What is interesting is that the forthcoming design is said to feature "an Aboriginal". Fullstop. No name, nothing. No mention of Tjungurrayi/Jimmy. No mention along the lines, "the coin will feature the beloved and famous Aborigine Tjungurrayi/Jimmy, known as 'One Pound Jimmy' who previously featured on an Australian stamp between 1950 and 1965". Nothing. Question: is it really Tjungurrayi/Jimmy on the $2 coin?

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by Allanswood »

The line drawing is based on a Dunstan photo of "Jimmy" but no one has shown an image of that photo. And the designer of the coin did not intend it to be any actual man.

The mint says that it's not him. They've not changed that view.

So... time to find the original unknown photo.

Because the coin shows an obviously much older man with long beard. When Jimmy was older, he did not have a beard. And we have shown photo's of the older 1950's Jimmy already, contemporary with the stamp, and he has no beard.


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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

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Here is a official combination pack of the last $2 note and the first $2 coin. (Image courtesy Downies.com). Note how I credited Downies with the image?

coin note pack combo outer.jpg

coin note pack combo.jpg
$2 Banknote and $2 Coin official pack


The text on this officially-issued pack is a little small, so it reads:

"... in with the new coin.
Unique, as the only standard Australia decimal coin not designed by Stuart Devlin, the acclaimed 'Tribal Elder' $2 reverse design was the work of Royal Australian Mint artist Horst Hahne. Created from aluminium bronze and unveiled during the Bicentennial celebrations in 1988, the first $2 coin features a memorable reverse of an Aboriginal Elder and native grasses, set beneath the Southern Cross. The Raphael Malouf portrait of Queen Elizabeth II is found on the obverse. Struck by the Royal Australian Mint in Canberra, each $2 coin featured in this presentation is included in strictly uncirculated condition."

Question: is it really Tjungurrayi/Jimmy on the $2 coin?

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »



The RAM files really do need to be searched.

A coin collector emailed Horst Hanhe and asked some questions relating to his work at the mint and career. Hahne emailed back his CV dated 1998 and granted permission to reproduce it or give it to other collectors. The CV, which is online, gives a very full account of his engraving work. According to Hahne himself, the man on $2 coin was only identified as:

"1988
Australian $2 reverse; Designed and sculptured plaster, (Aboriginal Head)

HORST HAHNE PSM

Retired Director of Design & Engraving
at the Royal Australian Mint
Canberra ACT"

The only wrinkle is where Hahne says: "In 1988 I won the design competition for our new $2 coin to replace the $2 banknote." AFAIK there was no design competition as such and Hahne was selected to do the engraving. (Happy to be corrected). Possibly Hahne did the design in the sense that he selected and/or arranged the elements on the small coin surface, which is not easy to do. Was he presented the lithographic and/or a photographic portrait and copied that? He does not say 'I based the coin on One Pound Jimmy'. Hahne had a job to do, amongst many others, so is there really room or time for artistic freelancing here? Hahne is still alive and of a decent age.

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »



2ser 107.3 Radio
DATE POSTED: Monday 5th of July, 2021
Interviewee: Paige Gleeson
Duration: 7 min 27 sec.

https://2ser.com/who-is-the-indigenous-man-on-our-two-dollar-coin/

2Ser Radio Interview 5 July 2001.png


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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »



The Conversation article also spread to the ModernAustralian website: https://www.modernaustralian.com/news/15795-new-stamp-discov ... n-pictures

No correction here.

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by Allanswood »

I don't know if it's been posted before, here, but this is what the RAM currently says on their website. (I will highlight relevant wording)

Quote
"The two dollar coin was first introduced on 20 June 1988. Planning for a two dollar coin commenced around the same time as that for the one dollar coin. Like the one dollar, the two dollar coin replaced the note of the same denomination which had a short service life through high use.

The image on the Australian two dollar coin represents an archetype of an Aboriginal tribal elder, designed by Horst Hahne.

Numerous designers were invited to contribute designs for the two dollar coin based on a brief to include a representation of the head and shoulders of an Aboriginal Australian, the Southern Cross and Australian flora.

The selected design was inspired by an artwork by Ainslie Roberts and modified in line with coin production requirements. Roberts used some features of Gwoya Tjungurrayi, otherwise known as One Pound Jimmy, as inspiration when creating a portrait depicting a traditional Aboriginal tribal elder. The rest of the features were derived from Roberts’ imagination and visual memory developed after drawing thousands of images of Indigenous people.

The size of the two dollar was determined after consideration of the needs of the visually impaired community, security considerations, a desire to avoid shaped coins, practical limitations to the diameter and thickness of coins, and to allow for future expansion of Australia's circulating coin array. When introduced, it was necessary to accommodate this new coin with seven existing denominations.

This denomination has since been used for commemorative designs."



Everything else and all the online urban myth (fake news until proven true), that just grows is conjecture when the mint itself says it's not him.

If they really had wanted to use Gwoya's likeness then the answer was elegant and simple - use the same image that was on the 1950 stamp!


This is Jimmy circa 1951 - image sourced via Trove, Walkabout Magazine Dec 1951

One Pound Jimmy Dec 1951 Walkabout Magazine
One Pound Jimmy Dec 1951 Walkabout Magazine


Why did he shave his beard?
From: Centralian Advocate (Alice Springs, NT : 1947 - 1954) View title info Fri 17 Jul 1953
Page 4 ONE-POUND JIMMY SHAVES.

"'One-Pound' Jimmy, of
Central Mount Wedge station
has shaved off his beard. It
is more than likely that this
venerable aborigine has re
moved his mighty growth of
whiskers in order to disguise
himself.

'One- found' Jimmy is the man
whose noble countenance graces
the Australian 2/6 postage stamp.
He became famous two years ago
when his picture first appeared on
the new stamp issue, and a search
had to be instituted to find him
and pay him his reward.

Since then Jimmy moved to
Central Mount Wedge where he
is now employed by Mr. Bill
Waudby. Both men have had
rather a tough time of it ever
since. It appears that hundreds
of philatelists and others have
discovered that the man on the
2/6 stamp is in Central Australia
and letters have come from every-
where asking for his signature.

Mr. Waudby acquired an ink-
pad, in Alice so that his famous
station hand could answer his fan
mail by sending his signature, a
thumb print, to those enquiring.

But it doesn't stop, the enquiries
still flow in and many people are
asking the whereabouts of 'One-
Pound' Jimmy in Alice. Sooner
or later Jimmy will want to visit
town again and it is suggested his
shaving of the fine beard (with
out which he would not be fea
tured on the stamp) is to save
him being stormed by autograph
hunters."


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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »


Royal Australian Mint wrote:The image on the Australian two dollar coin represents an archetype of an Aboriginal tribal elder, designed by Horst Hahne.

Numerous designers were invited to contribute designs for the two dollar coin based on a brief to include a representation of the head and shoulders of an Aboriginal Australian, the Southern Cross and Australian flora.

The selected design was inspired by an artwork by Ainslie Roberts and modified in line with coin production requirements. Roberts used some features of Gwoya Tjungurrayi, otherwise known as One Pound Jimmy, as inspiration when creating a portrait depicting a traditional Aboriginal tribal elder. The rest of the features were derived from Roberts’ imagination and visual memory developed after drawing thousands of images of Indigenous people.


Yes that has been quoted. But a further comment on it:

1988: From the time of issue, the Mint only ever said it was an "Aboriginal Elder" on the coin. No name.

2016: Nearly thirty years later, in around 2016? the Mint changed their story, saying it was an "archetype" an "inspired by" Jimmy. This is a subtle change but a change nevertheless. It is important to nail down when the RAM came up with this story: website address is: "Two Dollars". Royal Australian Mint. Australian Government. 8 January 2016. Remember, just because the Mint types something on their website does not make it true. Historians should always question their sources.

The important thing to note is the "inspired by" story is not supported by any evidence from the RAM. Not a shred. :idea: :idea:

Then there is the issue of artist Ainslie Roberts. He produced the lithograph which was the undoubted source of the coin. It looks identical.

Roberts is dead, he died in 1993. His children now run a website selling his prints. The Roberts website adopts the "inspired by" story from the RAM (and then references the RAM website). So their information appears to come from the RAM. One theory is that the estate has heartily embraced the "coin inspired by Jimmy > Roberts" to sell more prints. Why not? Again not a shred of evidence to say that the man on the coin is Jimmy. Ainslie Roberts is not alive to confirm it. Sounds like a family "story". No doubt they honestly believe it, but are there any facts to support it? The website link:

roberts website re prints and the coin.png
The Ainslie Roberts website asserts that the portrait shows One Pound Jimmy


It is important to note at this juncture that Roberts photographed many Central Desert Aborigines. Not just Jimmy. Presumably the lithograph has no name inscribed on it front or back. Guessing that the litho was produced in the 1940s/1950s or some such date. Then decades later it was dragged out for the 1988 bicentenary $2 coin. Important point: Roberts didn't say then it was Jimmy when he was alive.

When the Mint produced the coin there was no name attached to it or the marketing materials etc. - probably because the lithograph or photographic source had no name attached either. In these circumstances, it is easy to see how Jimmy's name to become mistakenly associated with the coin.

Then Roberts dies in 1993 and the attribution (if he could even remember decades later) was lost.

Does someone have Rennicks? There is a suggestion that the 2000 edition contains the $2 coin = Jimmy attribution. Even if it does, there will be no evidence in support.

Then sometime after, as Allanswood suggests, the urban myth grows that it is Jimmy, the most famous of Central Desert Aboriginals, on the $2 coin.

Then in 2018, on the 30th anniversary of issue of the coin, the ABC said that the coin was an "Aboriginal Elder inspired by" a Roberts lithograph. No mention of Jimmy: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-20/two-dollar-coin-turns ... nt/9886494

Then Paige Gleeson in her University-supervisor-approved journal article in Aboriginal History (2020) and adopts* the Mint line that the coin was "inspired by Jimmy". (*"accessed 16 Nov 2020"). Her footnote is: https://www.ramint.gov.au/two-dollars

So everything points back to the Royal Australian Mint website.

Then not long after in her University-supervisor-approved The Conversation article (2021), on ABC Radio and 2Ser107.3 Radio she excitedly tells the world "it is Jimmy", without qualification, and without a sufficient evidence. :roll: :roll:
Last edited by MJ's pet on 19 Aug 2021 18:57, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by Allanswood »

Lets start with the ear - that's not Jimmy's ear on the coin.


Later edit: in reading some info from a research paper the other man in an image I've posted before, often photographed with Jimmy was also called.... yep, Jim.

Now if Ainslie had pencilled "Jim" or "Jimmy" on the back of the drawing then???


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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

Somebody has already done a University essay on Gwoya, the $2 coin and the 1950 stamp and published online: RMIT in 2011. Interesting!

Link: https://www.scribd.com/document/92175450/Aboriginal-Stereoty ... ollar-coin

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by Allanswood »

I've been reading a 249 page document published by the ANU about 10 years ago.

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

This sounds the same as the chapter by Barnes.

The chapter by Barnes is the definitive account of One Pound Jimmy and his imagery.

Jillian Barnes does not claim credit for the non-discovery of the 1938 poster stamp.

Jillian Barnes does not claim that Gwoja was featured on the $2 coin or that he inspired it. No mention of the $2 coin at all.

Jillian Barnes. 'Resisting the Captured Image: How Gwoja Tjungurrayi, 'One Pound Jimmy', escaped the 'Stone Age', Ch.5 in Aboriginal History Monograph 16: Transgressions: Critical Australian Indigenous Histories, ANU E Press and Aboriginal History Incorporated, Jan 2007: pp83-134

The article is online. If you can find this link you can download a pdf:
link.png

Jill Barnes graphic.png
Jillian Barnes
University of Newcastle · School of Humanities and Social Science

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »



One Pound Jimmy on 1955 private maximum card. (Source: ebay).

1955 Maximum Card ebay.jpg

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by Tod.Moore »

Hello everybody. At the risk of getting a little bit off the topic of the 1938 Geelong Cinderella stamp, it seems odd that so many claim the $2 coin design is Gwoya. A number of posts in this Stampboards thread have already pointed out that it is clearly not a picture of a person as such, but a composite. The RAM has also confirmed this fact. The beard and hair (and ear as noted by Allan) could not be his.

The original article from the Daily Mail Australia in 2018 has been noted by Glen, above. This article, by their resident working journalist Fiona Connor, makes the claim that the Ainsley Roberts picture for the coin was of Gwoya, as in this quote:

‘Although the design was not intended to depict any particular person, the face on the coin was designed by Horst Hahne based on a drawing of Jungarai by artist Ainslie Roberts.’

$2 coin Daily Mail article 2018
$2 coin Daily Mail article 2018


As has been pointed out in other posts on this Stampboards thread, Roberts did not portray Gwoya in that picture, but may have used some features for inspiration. Roberts was a very talented artist, and he did countless composite pictures of Indigenous people, which were used to illustrate books of Dreamtime stories. These pictures were very well done, and they were artistic renditions, although he did do portraits also, like this one here:

Ainsley Roberts portrait: inscribed 'Tiger'
Ainsley Roberts portrait: inscribed 'Tiger'

The website run by members of Roberts’ family (see Glen’s post above), which sells some lovely prints of the artist’s work, currently uses the claim that the $2 coin design is a portrait, and this claim looks as though it might be taken from the sensationalist 2018 Daily Mail article. It is worth noting that the 1989 publication of Dreamtime stories, called Shadows in the Mist, splashed the $2 coin picture across the back of the dust wrapper. Good publicity!

Fiona Connor is still working as a highly productive ‘human interest’ journalist, as can be seen from her profile here:

https://muckrack.com/fiona-connor

The incorrect and misleading Daily Mail Australia article is still up, and there is also a link to it, as shown here.

$2 coin Daily Mail article 2018 link
$2 coin Daily Mail article 2018 link

Cheers. Tod. :)

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by briggia »

MJ's pet wrote:
20 Aug 2021 11:46


Jillian Barnes. 'Resisting the Captured Image: How Gwoja Tjungurrayi, 'One Pound Jimmy', escaped the 'Stone Age', Ch.5 in Aboriginal History Monograph 16: Transgressions: Critical Australian Indigenous Histories, ANU E Press and Aboriginal History Incorporated, Jan 2007: pp83-134
Thanks for posting the link to Dr Barnes’ book chapter.

Apart from a fascinating read, not only is it very well written and demonstrates the authors deep knowledge, the piece exemplifies just how a piece needs to reference/cite all previous work.

Cheers

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Whilst growing my usage collection, I also collect other stuff.

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »


MJ's pet wrote:
19 Aug 2021 18:22
2016: Nearly thirty years later, in around 2016? the Mint changed their story, saying it was an "archetype" an "inspired by" Jimmy. This is a subtle change but a change nevertheless. It is important to nail down when the RAM came up with this story: website address is: "Two Dollars". Royal Australian Mint. Australian Government. 8 January 2016. Remember, just because the Mint types something on their website does not make it true. Historians should always question their sources.

The important thing to note is the "inspired by" story is not supported by any evidence from the RAM. Not a shred. :idea: :idea:


To add to the $2 coin issue, Allanswood did a search of the Royal Australian Mint website in 2010 :idea: :idea: - when it looked different - and took the following screencap:

RAM in 2010.jpg
In 2010 The Royal Australian Mint did not say Jimmy inspired the $2 coin


No mention of "inspired by" Jimmy at all. :idea: :idea:

https://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=21440

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

Global Administrator wrote:
18 Aug 2021 22:42

Dear Glen,

Thank you for contacting us regarding this story. We have contacted the author for clarification. She has reported that she was not aware of your post and identification of Gwoja Tjungurrayi as the subject of the 1938 stamp.

The author saw the stamp reproduced in stamp collecting forums and on google images while searching for info about the 1950 stamp and others featuring Aboriginal subject matter.

She was the first to formally identify it in a peer-reviewed academic publication and wrote about it as a poster stamp and its connection to Walkabout.

Also, she reports that she took a photo of the stamp herself (which she used for her journal article here) but downloaded a clearer image of the stamp from google images for The Conversation story. Our apologies that this image appears to be your photograph, used without permission.

Next steps:

- We amend the wording in the story to say that the author is the first to identify Gwoya Tjungurrayi as the subject of the 1938 stamp in an academic publication.
- We replace the lead image with the author's photograph of the stamp.
- We add a line to the end of the story that reads: Update: after publication The Conversation was alerted that a 2010 blog post by Glen Stephens had previously identified Gwoya Tjungurrayi. The article has been reworded accordingly.
- We inform republishers of these changes.

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.

Yours sincerely,

Lucy
Lucy Beaumont
Senior Deputy Section Editor - Arts + Culture, The Conversation


Except the republishers have taken no notice of Lucy Beaumont, or so it seems. :twisted: :twisted:

The Australian Geographic website is still "uncorrected": https://www.australiangeographic.com.au/topics/history-cultu ... ungurrayi/

The University of Tasmania alumni website is still "uncorrected": https://www.utas.edu.au/alumni/news-and-publications/news-it ... jungurrayi

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

Lucy Beaumont wrote:Also, she reports that she took a photo of the stamp herself (which she used for her journal article here) but downloaded a clearer image of the stamp from google images for The Conversation story. Our apologies that this image appears to be your photograph, used without permission.


For the umpteenth time, Paige Gleeson still has not said *where* she allegedly took the photo. What is the source of it?

Her references are still not correct and could breach academic standards, matters which should be investigated by the University, among other matters in this sorry saga.

There is a very particular way of reference objects in academic papers, which Paige Gleeson and no doubt her supervisor are well aware of.

The proper reference, if she took the photo, should be something like:

"1938 Geelong Centenary souvenir stamp. Source: XX Museum Collection (or XX named person Collection). Photo: the author".

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by towradji »

So where are we at after a week of copyright discussion with Paige & her publishers?

All over despite the shouting or more to come?

Time will tell.

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

Another republication from The Conversation. And no, not corrected:

https://districtbulletin.com.au/elder-lawman-survivor-new-st ... -pictures/

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »

Above I posted material which strongly suggests the 1938 Geelong poster stamp was produced by the Centenary Council of Geelong, who unsuccessfully lobbied the PMG for an official stamp in around August 1938.

While it is only a possibility, the poster stamps were possibly printed at the Geelong Advertiser, who produced the Centenary book, viewable on this link: https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-258552391/view?partId=nla.obj-258565285#page/n4/mode/1up

It was also suggested that Shepparton Centenary Committee lobby the PMG for their own stamp. (Which did not happen either).

I suggest that the Shepparton Pack Horse covers of October 1938 were arranged by the Shepparton Centenary Committee. Makes sense. Is there information known about the maker of these?? (Source: ebay):

shepparton centy cover.jpg

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

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Note ANU Press is the publisher of Aboriginal History.

https://press.anu.edu.au/faqs/anu-press-publication-ethics-and-malpractice-statement
ANU Press wrote:Plagiarism and Academic Misconduct
ANU Press takes any allegations of academic misconduct concerning any submitted manuscripts or published papers seriously.

Reviewers are expected to report any suspected case of misconduct or plagiarism in a submitted manuscript to the publication editor, Editorial Board or ANU Press with sufficient information and evidence in order for an investigation to be initiated. Where plagiarism or misconduct is identified, ANU Press will act immediately to suspend publication of the submitted manuscript under question and investigate any allegations until a successful decision or conclusion is reached.

If a member of the public suspects any case of plagiarism or academic misconduct in any of ANU Press’ published papers, ANU Press encourages any such member of the public to notify any suspected case of misconduct or plagiarism in writing to ANU Press immediately. All alleged plagiarism or academic misconduct concerning published papers will be investigated by ANU Press in accordance with the procedures outlined below.

In investigating any allegations of plagiarism or academic misconduct concerning a submitted manuscripts or published papers, ANU Press will review the allegation in consultation with the responsible Editorial Board and then refer the case to the University Librarian for advice and decision. These responsive measure will include contacting the author/editor of the suspected manuscript or paper to obtain clarifications, giving due consideration of the respective complaint or claims made, and based on the seriousness of the plagiarism or academic misconduct, further communications to the relevant institutions and research bodies.

Author Responsibilities
To publish with ANU Press, authors must ensure their submitted manuscripts meets specific requirements for quality scholarly publications.

The author must warrant that:

*The submitted manuscript is original, has not been published previously and is not being considered for publication elsewhere in either print or electronic form.
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*The submitted manuscripts will report only accurate and reliable data.

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Re: Australian Aboriginal "One Pound Jimmy" Cinderella stamps

Post by MJ's pet »


aboriginl history p98.png


No credit given to Glen Stephens, Stampboards.com or Stamp News Australasia for identifying the stamp in 2010, 11 years before this, and identifying the subject as Gwoja.



ABC Radio wrote:

ABC Announcer: Mmm Mmm and Paige you found another stamp with ah with ah Tjungurrayi on it earlier than 1950?

Gleeson: Yes I did. So um in the course of researching Tjungurrayi and um images of um Australian Aboriginal people on stamps I was looking through some stamp collecting forums online an I discovered a ah stamp from um 1938 it’s a commemorative stamp it wasn’t a postage stamp but it was a centenary stamp that was issued by the city of Geelong in 1938 to celebrate their centenary an I noticed that the man on the stamp was unmistakably um Tjungurrayi it was based on the an exact copy of the photograph of Tjungurrayi that had featured in Walkabout magazine a few years previously an it was unmistakably him.
Paige Gleeson in The Conversation wrote: While researching images of Aboriginal people on stamps, in an online stamp collecting forum, I realised the man on the Geelong stamp was unmistakably Tjungurrayi, pictured 12 years before the “One Pound Jimmy” stamp.


But didn't she deny using Stampboards or Stamp News?? :idea: :idea:

Paige Gleeson wrote: She has reported that she was not aware of your post and identification of Gwoja Tjungurrayi as the subject of the 1938 stamp.
Last edited by MJ's pet on 22 Aug 2021 18:01, edited 2 times in total.

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