Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

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Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by MJ's pet »

2 dollar coin image.jpg


Does anyone have old Renniks Australian Coin & Banknote catalogues they can check?

In a stamp thread, there is discussion about the design source of Aboriginal man depicted on the 1988 $2 coin:

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&p=7329317#p7329317

Some sources say is a drawing of an non-specific Aboriginal Elder. Others says it is Gwoja Tjungurrayi. Others say it is inspired by Gwoja. The Mint on their website say "inspired by". The story seems to change as time goes on.

Can people please check their Renniks from 1988 onwards post here what information is given.

Please state the edition and year. Thanks.
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Re: Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Rennicks

Post by doug »

Why "old" Renniks?
Why not start with now?

Renniks 30th edition, 2020 -

"Reverse design: Bust of Gwoya Jungarai (also known as One Pound Jimmy) by Horst Hahne (HH under pectoral until 1989). Based on a drawing by Ainslie Roberts against a background of the Southern Cross and Australia's flora. The flora depicted is of the Xanthorrhoea species commonly known as the grass tree and is found in all States of Australia."

The grass tree is also known as a Black Boy or Balga Grass, Balga being Aboriginal for a black boy.
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Re: Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Rennicks

Post by traralgon3844 »

Where did Renniks draw this information from?

Source please, linking back to Horst Hahne who did the design or RAM.
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

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Amended spelling from Rennicks to Renniks

Useless trivia fact - Renniks was founded by coin legend Dion Skinner .. and SKINNER spelt backwards is ........................... :lol:
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Re: Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Rennicks

Post by MJ's pet »

doug wrote: 25 Aug 2021 14:20 Why "old" Renniks?
Why not start with now?


Many Thanks Doug.

I am asking for old Renniks entries (from 1988 to date) for a specific reason: apparently the entry has changed over time.

Apparently the "bust of Gwola" entry has been there since at least the year 2000 / 19th edition (if wiki is correct: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_two-dollar_coin).

So any entries from 1988 editions onwards are needed.
Last edited by MJ's pet on 25 Aug 2021 14:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Rennicks

Post by MJ's pet »

traralgon3844 wrote: 25 Aug 2021 14:30 Where did Renniks draw this information from?
That is the $1 Million Dollar question. But in which year/edition the "Gwoja" entry first appears is important in the scheme of things. Any info is appreciated.
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by doug »

Understood, and good luck with your request.

As regards the apparently nonsensical request for a source -

2dollar.JPG
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by MJ's pet »

This is a bit of a long shot, but does anyone have access to a set of Australian Coin Review* published (by John Gartner of Hawthorn Press fame) from 1964 to 2001? The latter issues might have something on the origins of the $2 coin of 1988.

Of course there might be something in Australasian Coin and Banknote Magazine (published from 1996) also.
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by MJ's pet »

Thanks Doug.

The entry on the RAM website is important to the discussion, as that is what everyone goes to and keeps repeating. The important thing to note is the web entry does not appear backed by any evidence insofar as the "Gowja" attribution is concerned.

One would like to think that RAM know what they are talking about :idea: but the Gwoja statment is not backed by any archival evidence AFAIK. Just because some PR person at the Mint types a statement on their website doesn't make it true.

None of the Treasury or RAM statements, advertisements or sale packaging from 1988 attributes the portrait to Gowja or even "inspired by" Gwoja (whatever that means) as has become the narrative in recent times.

Possibly after the lithograph artist Ainslie Roberts died in 1993 the horse bolted.

As Allanswood has shown on the other thread, linked above, the RAM web entry seems to be a recent creation. And everybody keeps repeating it Ad nauseam.

As Joseph Goebbels once said: “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by satsuma »

Does this help?

Here is an entry from http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=8865.0
from February 22, 2011

Mr Hahne is best known for his portrayal of an Aboriginal elder on the reverse of Australia’s standard circulation two dollar coin, which was first issued in 1988.

The elder portrayed on the coin is known as One Pound Jimmy. You can see him pictured on the left, on "walkabout" in the Australian bush, in the photo below.
One Pound Jimmy.jpg
* One Pound Jimmy.jpg (35.37 kB, 497x302 - viewed 806 times.)
Australia $2 1990.jpg
* Australia $2 1990.jpg (98.55 kB, 622x610 - viewed 761 times.)

However, the website says the page was edited on October 31, 2017.
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by Allanswood »

satsuma wrote: 25 Aug 2021 23:29 Does this help?

Here is an entry from http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=8865.0
from February 22, 2011



The elder portrayed on the coin is known as One Pound Jimmy. You can see him pictured on the left, on "walkabout" in the Australian bush, in the photo below.

And that's one obvious problem... "Jimmy" is on the RIGHT! That's "Jim" on the left.
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by Global Administrator »

.
Had a 2013 Renniks in an Estate box/x -- that has the Jimmy wording. I often get in older versions - I'll report wording if I do!
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by MJ's pet »

Many Thanks. Apparently the year 2000 edition has the "Jimmy" wording although I have not personally sighted it.

Someone will have an old Renniks somewhere!
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by MJ's pet »

Allanswood wrote: 25 Aug 2021 23:40 And that's one obvious problem... "Jimmy" is on the RIGHT!


Hi Satsuma, the problem is that the internet appears to be wrong.

jimmy labelled photo.png


Allanswood is correct - Jimmy is on the right. That person looks like the Aborigine depicted on the 8 1/2d and 2/6d Australian stamps.

The person on the left is Woritarinja and looks kind of like the Aborigine depicted on the $2 coin.

I have not sighted a photograph of Jimmy that looks anything like the person shown on the $2 coin and doubt it exists.

If I had to guess, this perpetual mis-labelling of the c.1935 Walkabout photograph is the source of the problem. And certain people copying what they see off the internet! :lol:

There is no doubt that the source of the $2 coin was the Roberts lithograph. The question then becomes: did the Roberts lithograph depict a real person?

My guess is that the Roberts lithograph is a imagined composite drawn from memory (as the RAM say on their website) but not "inspired" by Jimmy. The coin has a passing resemblance to Woritarinja but the beard is much shorter (in the photo) for a start so unlikely to be him.

Next question: what is the first report of the $2 coin = Jimmy story. :idea:
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by earlierthebetter »

.
The text in the 29th edition from May 2019 is identical to the 30th edition as stated above.
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by MJ's pet »

Thanks. What is needed are some editions from the 1990s. Can people please ask their coin friends if they have an old Renniks to check.
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by earlierthebetter »

.
Sorry, but I couldn’t resist posting this.

On page 18 of the Review section of the Weekend Australian newspaper from June 26.

Renniks Australian Coin & Banknote Values 30th Edition is number three in the Top 10 Art books list.

If nothing else it gives the thread a bump.
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by MJ's pet »

How about that. :?: Didn't know they sold so many copies. Thanks for posting.
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by Allanswood »

Selling 10 copies might get you onto that weird list. :lol:
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by earlierthebetter »

.
Yep, weird hey.

Perhaps not based on sales but some other method.
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by peterb »

From my 2009 copy.

Reverse design: Bust of Aborigine 'One Pound Jimmy' from an engraving by Ainslie Roberts against a background of the Southern Cross and Australia's flora.The flora depicted etc.
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by MJ's pet »

Thanks peterb. :) Does anyone have a Renniks from the 1990s?
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by doug »

Probably the only other relevant Australian catalogue was that of Greg McDonald's Australian Coins and Banknotes.

The penultimate (22nd) edition, published mid 2015, merely refers to the subject as "Aboriginal Elder".
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by MJ's pet »

Thanks Doug. That is interesting. :ugeek:
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by xcropper »

From 25th Anniversary Edition (Fifteenth Edition) 1989
"Bust of a traditional Aborigine against a background of Southern Cross and Australia's Flora. The Flora depicted is of the Xanthorrhoea species commonly known as a grass tree and is found in all States of Australia"

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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

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xcropper wrote: 01 Sep 2021 01:51 From 25th Anniversary Edition (Fifteenth Edition) 1989
"Bust of a traditional Aborigine against a background of Southern Cross and Australia's Flora. The Flora depicted is of the Xanthorrhoea species commonly known as a grass tree and is found in all States of Australia"

Kevin


Boom. Thanks Kevin!

I'm told that the year 2000 edition mentions Gwoja. This is starting to get really interesting. :idea:

Please ask around for editions from the 1990s.
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by earlierthebetter »

.
Might be worthwhile contacting Renniks directly??

They might archive old copies or information and could track revisions etc.
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by MJ's pet »

^^^This is a good idea. The current editor is Michael T. Pitt. Does anyone know him?

https://renniks.com/shop/renniks-australian-coin-banknote-values-30-hardcover/

It would not take a great deal of time to locate last original entry / first Gwoja entry with a run of old cats. But they have paying customers to look after first.

Some libraries around the place have older issues of Renniks, but it is patchy and they are difficult to access. Generally the older cats get tossed when newer editions come in.
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

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Does anyone know anyone well at Renniks that could have a look at this historical listing?

They will want their listing to be correct for sure. :D
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

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Still looking for old Renniks after 1990. Thanks
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

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Still looking for old Renniks between 1990 and 2000. Thanks :)
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by earlierthebetter »

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MJ’s pet

Noted you have an interest in Australia’s indigenous on stamps.

Perhaps the attached from Australia’s 150th Anniversary set depicting “Mickey, Australian Aboriginal” could be of interest if not already known.
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Mickey, Australian Aboriginal
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

Post by MJ's pet »

Thanks earlierthebetter. That stamp is noted in the other thread.
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Re: Info sought on Australia 1988 $2 coin listing in Renniks

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Still looking for old Renniks between 1990 and 2000. Thanks :)
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