Help with 1943 German document bearing postage stamps?

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Help with 1943 German document bearing postage stamps?

Post by cere-sear-seer-sere »

Hi, I'm wondering if anyone can assist me in interpreting what kind of document / application this is and what purpose it served.

Third Reich postage stamps on document
Third Reich postage stamps on document


This is how I'm reading the legible text [with Google translations], but please feel free to correct:

Die Andtragskarte ist gewissenhaft und gut leserficht auszüfullen und darf nicht geknickt werden. Dick umfandete Felder durfen nicht ausgefüllt werden. Unvollständige Antragskarten werden nicht bearbeitet.

[The application card must be filled out conscientiously and legibly and must not be bent. Fields with thick borders may not be filled out. Incomplete application cards will not be processed.]

Ich bestätige hierdurch.... aus dem Schiessbuch.

[I hereby confirm .... from the shooting book.]

Unterschrift des Führers der Gefolgschaft oder des Fähnlein

[Signature of the leader of the entourage or the ensign]
Thank you for your help.

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Re: Help with 1943 German document bearing postage stamps?

Post by nigelc »

.
The official handstamp at the bottom left is from the Hitler Youth, the Nazi youth organisation (in German: Hitler-Jugend).
Nigel

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Re: Help with 1943 German document bearing postage stamps?

Post by cere-sear-seer-sere »

Thanks - I figured that might be what the text on the bottom of the handstamp said, but wasn't sure. I'm unable to read the rest of the handstamp's text. I was hoping "shooting book" was a Google mistranslation, but maybe -- given the activities of that organization -- it refers to literal shooting.

Any thoughts on what the signatory of this document is "hereby confirming," or what role the postage stamps play?

I'm not deeply invested in this piece, just curious if anyone has come across something like it.

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Re: Help with 1943 German document bearing postage stamps?

Post by nigelc »

.
Here's a description from Wikipedia of a more recent form of Schießbuch:

Das Schießbuch dient bei der militärischen Schießausbildung der Bundeswehr als persönlicher Leistungsnachweis des Soldaten.

In das Schießbuch werden alle, mit verschiedenen Waffen, erreichten Schießergebnisse eingetragen.

Das Schießbuch bleibt in der Hand des Soldaten, darf jedoch nicht durch ihn selbst geführt werden, sondern nur durch dazu bestimmte Vorgesetzte oder Schreiber.

Eintragungen erfolgen aufgrund der beim Schießen in die Schießkladde eingetragenen Ergebnisse.

Das Schießbuch enthält neben den dienstlichen Personalien (Name, Dienstgrad, Truppenteil) die Ergebnisse des Schießens mit den verschiedenen Handwaffen (Gewehr, Pistole, MG, MP), Panzerabwehrwaffen, Fliegerabwehrwaffen und Handgranaten.

Weiterhin werden die Ergebnisse der Wertungsübungen zum Erlangen der Schützenschnur bzw. des Leistungsabzeichens vermerkt. Das Schießbuch gilt als Urkunde.

Es wird nach Ausscheiden aus dem Dienst zurückgegeben und bei den Personalunterlagen des Soldaten aufbewahrt.

Die Entsprechung im österreichischen Bundesheer lautet Schießheft.


In English:

"The shooting book serves as a personal proof of performance for the soldier in the military shooting training of the Bundeswehr.

All shooting results achieved with different weapons are entered in the shooting book.

The shooting book remains in the hands of the soldier, but may not be kept by the soldier himself, but only by superiors or clerks appointed for this purpose.

Entries are made on the basis of the results entered in the shooting book when shooting.

In addition to the official personal details (name, rank, troop unit), the shooting book contains the results of shooting with the various hand weapons (rifle, pistol, machine gun, MP ), anti-tank weapons, anti-aircraft weapons and hand grenades.

Furthermore, the results of the evaluation exercises for obtaining the marksman's line or the badge of achievement are noted.

The shooting book is considered a certificate.

It is returned after leaving service and kept with the soldier's personnel records.

The equivalent in the Austrian Armed Forces is the shooting book."
Nigel

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Re: Help with 1943 German document bearing postage stamps?

Post by cere-sear-seer-sere »

Thanks, Nigel. Sounds like what this is.

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Re: Help with 1943 German document bearing postage stamps?

Post by gavin-h »

cere-sear-seer-sere wrote:
29 Sep 2021 15:16

Any thoughts on what the signatory of this document is "hereby confirming," or what role the postage stamps play?

I don't think the stamps belong on the piece. :idea:

They are only "tied" with a vague blur (bottom left of the 10pfg stamp) and if I was pressed, I'd suggest that black ink was applied with a cork to make it appear to belong.

The Shooting Book has been correctly described by Nigel above, and there would be no requirement for POSTAGE stamps to be added to that. The Nazi regime regularly produced "Cinderella" stamps for specific tax, savings, rationing, subscription etc purposes. They rarely, if ever, used postage stamps for non-postal purposes. If required, there would almost certainly have been a special Schießen stamp designed and printed for the purpose and almost certainly in a small, horizontal format with embossed Nazi regalia featured as part of the design (because that's how they did things!)

I think it is most likely that someone has added those stamps later to create something "official looking", whether for their own amusement / entertainment, or to sell to deceive. :idea: :idea: :idea:

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Re: Help with 1943 German document bearing postage stamps?

Post by cere-sear-seer-sere »

They are only "tied" with a vague blur (bottom left of the 10pfg stamp) and if I was pressed, I'd suggest that black ink was applied with a cork to make it appear to belong....
I think it is most likely that someone has added those stamps later to create something "official looking", whether for their own amusement / entertainment, or to sell to deceive.


Interesting -- I agree, the postage stamps don't really seem of a piece with the... piece. Deliberate inky deception or just schmutz?

Third Reich postage stamp closeup
Third Reich postage stamp closeup



In any case, thanks for the further insights. Here's a closer look at the handstamp in case anything else becomes legible:

Third Reich handstamp
Third Reich handstamp



Cheers,
c-s-s-s
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Re: Help with 1943 German document bearing postage stamps?

Post by Old Architect »

This is a partial last page from a "Schiessenbuch" or record of shooting activity of the young person, for obtaining a sports badge / shooting badge. It's pretty much the same in most shooting sports around the world and, of course, the military. The Hitler Jugend had badge ranks just as those of the army - "Expert, Sharp-Shooter & Marksman" respectively. These books were about 10-12 pages & recorded days when at a shooting event. Most had handstamps for dates & leader signatures. The stamp mark in the lower left has a faint, but typical, "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche ArbeiterPartei" (NSDAP the national socialist party) above the "Hitler Jugend" with a "Reichsadler" eagle holding a swastika in a wreath. The final page would be where the rank was recorded so the book holder could receive their medal.

All that stated, I've never seen any of these with postage stamps in / on them. The book holder wouldn't pay for their badge as it was awarded by the state. So the stamps (uncancelled) seem to be added for something other than shooting or getting a proficiency medal. They are out of place here & highly suspect as original to the document.
Courtesy is contagious.

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Re: Help with 1943 German document bearing postage stamps?

Post by honza »

cere-sear-seer-sere wrote:
02 Oct 2021 16:35
They are only "tied" with a vague blur (bottom left of the 10pfg stamp) and if I was pressed, I'd suggest that black ink was applied with a cork to make it appear to belong....
I think it is most likely that someone has added those stamps later to create something "official looking", whether for their own amusement / entertainment, or to sell to deceive.


Interesting -- I agree, the postage stamps don't really seem of a piece with the... piece. Deliberate inky deception or just schmutz?


Image


In any case, thanks for the further insights. Here's a closer look at the handstamp in case anything else becomes legible:


Image


Cheers,
c-s-s-s
~
Ahoj c-s-s-s,

I think the top reads Nationalsoz. Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. = NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers Party)

Cheers,

Honza

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Re: Help with 1943 German document bearing postage stamps?

Post by Old Architect »

I think I just stated that, with an explanation of the material. I feel like my comments are not part of the conversation. Attached is a fuzzy HJ stamp from an original "Shiessenbuch":
1 HJ Stamp.jpg
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Re: Help with 1943 German document bearing postage stamps?

Post by Old Architect »

Thinking out loud - These booklets had the name & address (Wohnort & Strasse) of the owner on the front cover. I suppose it's possible that someone had planned to mail it to the owner for some reason. Though it would make sense if it was on the front cover, not on an inside page as these stamps are shown. Again, not cancelled... had planned to mail? Still highly unlikely.
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Re: Help with 1943 German document bearing postage stamps?

Post by steevh »

Those Hitler head stamps are very sticky. It could be that the soldier kept a few stamps in his shooting book for safekeeping and later use, and they got stuck there.

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Re: Help with 1943 German document bearing postage stamps?

Post by Number-O-Ne »

steevh wrote:
03 Oct 2021 23:06
Those Hitler head stamps are very sticky. It could be that the soldier kept a few stamps in his shooting book for safekeeping and later use, and they got stuck there.
The stamps carried around for regular use would have been 6pf (postcard) or 12 (letter) 60pf looks like a specific calculated rate, not a combination by coincidence.

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Re: Help with 1943 German document bearing postage stamps?

Post by cere-sear-seer-sere »

I appreciate the knowledge and the educated guesses!
Thanks,
c-s-s-s

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