Help with ID + value, 1919 German booklet panes on piece?

Stampboards has 1000s of regular readers who WILL take the time to help out even with the most basic question. If you are new to stamps - or taking up the hobby after a long break, there is a lot to learn. PLEASE do not be shy in asking the simplest of questions .. members here will be delighted to help you with the answers!

Moderator: Volunteer Moderator Team

Post Reply
User avatar
cere-sear-seer-sere
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Posts: 61
Joined: 14 Jul 2021 05:23
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA

Help with ID + value, 1919 German booklet panes on piece?

Post by cere-sear-seer-sere »

Hi -- I've come across this:

1919 Germania stamp booklet(?) on piece
1919 Germania stamp booklet(?) on piece



I have four questions and would greatly appreciate any help.


1. Probably the easiest -- help with what remains of the handwriting on the piece. I can read what I think is "nicht nachts" -- not nights? Not at night? Instructions for delivery? Any help with the rest would be great.


2. I found the four pages in the 2016 Michel Specialized that seem to deal with 1919 Germania booklets. I haven't encountered booklets before so the terminology contained in these pages ("H-Bi. Margins," "HAN," "H-pane sequence," "Zw-leaf sequence") is new to me -- and I have to admit, I'm having trouble making any sense of it. Here are the four pages:

Michel Germania booklets p212
Michel Germania booklets p212


Michel Germania booklets p213
Michel Germania booklets p213


Michel Germania booklets p214
Michel Germania booklets p214


Michel Germania booklets p215
Michel Germania booklets p215



I'd be grateful for help identifying the booklet (booklet page? what's the correct terminology?) I have here--and more broadly, any help with understanding the concepts of how pages like these are identified (i.e., what do the terms I mentioned above refer to?).


3. Also -- is this a noteworthy printing error on the upper-left stamp?

possible error in Germania booklet
possible error in Germania booklet



4. And finally, assuming we can identify these stamps and determine if the error is noteworthy, how should I interpret the CV? Michel gives a value for (some but not all!) of the variants on cover; is there a rule of thumb for something like this on piece -- i.e., a percentage of the on-cover value?


Thanks in advance for help with any of this.
Last edited by cere-sear-seer-sere on 13 Aug 2021 06:51, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
cere-sear-seer-sere
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Posts: 61
Joined: 14 Jul 2021 05:23
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA

Re: Help identifying and evaluating 1919 German stamp booklet(?) on piece

Post by cere-sear-seer-sere »

For what it's worth, I also have this on piece, which (by the placement of the 10 pf stamps) looks like it might be the 1918 issue?

possibly 1918 Germania booklet
possibly 1918 Germania booklet



And here's the page in Michel dealing with the 1918:


Michel - Germania booklets - p 211
Michel - Germania booklets - p 211


User avatar
Global Administrator
The Sheriff
The Sheriff
Posts: 64992
Joined: 18 Apr 2007 22:57
Location: Tombstone
Contact:

Re: Help with ID and value 1919 German booklet pane on piece?

Post by Global Administrator »

.
The terminology for these are booklet PANES - heading amended.

Shame they were not left on complete cover!

Glen
.
Click HERE to see superb, RARE and unusual stamps, at FIXED low nett prices, high rez photos, and NO buyer fees etc!

User avatar
cere-sear-seer-sere
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Posts: 61
Joined: 14 Jul 2021 05:23
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA

Re: Help with ID + value, 1919 German booklet panes on piece?

Post by cere-sear-seer-sere »

*Panes*, got it -- thank you.

As for my question #1, I now see that the first two handwritten words are "Durch Eilboten," which are the same as the first two words on the red label, and which Google Translate tells me mean "by couriers." So, one question more or less answered.

Though I'm not familiar enough with the German postal system of the time to know what sort of courier options were available (from the post office?) that one could pay for with stamps.

User avatar
norvic
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 22397
Joined: 25 Feb 2008 21:51
Location: Norfolk, England
Contact:

Re: Help with ID + value, 1919 German booklet panes on piece?

Post by norvic »

Durch Eilboten means Express Letter, nothing more. It’s a standard bilingual postal label in French and German.
Ian Billings - Norvic Philatelics - Remember almost everything I picture is available, unless otherwise stated or copied from elsewhere, as I reduce a roomful of 'stuff' - just ask. GB stamps info: https://blog.norphil.co.uk, NPhilatelics on twitter, www norphil.co.uk, shop.norphil.co.uk for our e-commerce site

User avatar
johnrcrow
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 3631
Joined: 04 Feb 2012 09:18
Location: Idolsberg, Austria
Contact:

Re: Help with ID + value, 1919 German booklet panes on piece?

Post by johnrcrow »

What a well explained and illustrated question post c-s-s-s.

I will be back with my thoughts later.

The terminologies used for booklet panes do need some concentrated effort to understand.

For information to others, the Handbook, to which you refer is as in scan below, although mine is earlier version.

Front cover Michel Handuch-Katalog  Markenheftchen Deutches Reich.
Front cover Michel Handuch-Katalog Markenheftchen Deutches Reich.

User avatar
cere-sear-seer-sere
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Posts: 61
Joined: 14 Jul 2021 05:23
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA

Re: Help with ID + value, 1919 German booklet panes on piece?

Post by cere-sear-seer-sere »

Thank you for taking a look -- I look forward to your thoughts!


In the meantime, I found another booklet pane on piece. This looks more like the first one (presumably 1919) except this one has the [selvage? margin?] intact, and does not appear to have perforations along the bottom edge.

Germany 1919 booklet pane #2
Germany 1919 booklet pane #2



I checked and the error I noted in my original post (question #3) does not appear in this pane. Here is a detailed look at the lower-right-hand corner of the upper-left-hand stamp in this new pane:

Germany 1919 booklet pane #2, no error - detail
Germany 1919 booklet pane #2, no error - detail



For comparison, here again the lower-right-hand corner of the upper-left-hand stamp of the first pane I posted:
Germany 1919 booklet pane #1, error - detail
Germany 1919 booklet pane #1, error - detail



Thanks again,
c-s-s-s

User avatar
johnrcrow
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 3631
Joined: 04 Feb 2012 09:18
Location: Idolsberg, Austria
Contact:

Re: Help with ID + value, 1919 German booklet panes on piece?

Post by johnrcrow »

Not forgotten to answer but been busy.

The exact detail of the selvedge is important in assessing which booklet pane it is.

Other factors influencing value (CV) are the shades of both values the stamps.

I will detail later again but here a few reminders.


Isides.jpg


Your second shown pane looks like 21 aa A 1 (second shown pane top row).

Of course the first pane you showed cannot be evaluated as it has no margin.


The mark is a random ink printing fault.



John

User avatar
cere-sear-seer-sere
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Posts: 61
Joined: 14 Jul 2021 05:23
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA

Re: Help with ID + value, 1919 German booklet panes on piece?

Post by cere-sear-seer-sere »

Thank you, John -- and no rush whatsoever! I appreciate your knowledge and experience with these stamps and whenever you have a moment I'll tune in to your next response. I was just excited about finding another pane! As it happens, I've now found one more. Someone went out of their way in 1919/1920 to acquire several postally used panes! (I wont bother anyone if I find any others.)


And thanks for posting those catalog pages. I can see now that the "A's" and "B's" and "aa's" and "ab's" etc. have to do with the margins (and what I did not realize -- the color shades). My biggest challenge, of course, is that I have the Michel Germany Specialized 2016 (Eng.), which has a whole section on these booklets, but which does not explain the abbreviations and numbering/lettering sequence!


All of that is presumably (one hopes) explained in your even-more-specialized Michel German booklets catalog -- but even with that in hand, I imagine it would take me a while to get the hang of it!


In my haste this morning I made an error in my previous post. The latest booklet pane I posted must actually be a 1918, not a 1919. The 1918 booklets (H-pane 19) have the 10-pf stamps on the right of the bottom row; the 1919 booklets (H-pane 21) have the 10-pf stamps on the left. So (I think) that means the latest one can't be 21 aa A 1.

Rather, the two varieties I see listed for H-pane 19 are aa A and aa B. They have identical (hefty) CVs -- €750 used and €1500 on cover. I'm guessing CV on piece is much closer to the used CV than on cover....


So just to clear things up, here are the 1918s (I think):


1.
first Germany 1918 booklet pane
first Germany 1918 booklet pane



2.
second Germany 1918 booklet pane
second Germany 1918 booklet pane




And here are the 1919s:


3.
first Germany 1919 booklet pane
first Germany 1919 booklet pane




4.
second Germany 1919 booklet pane
second Germany 1919 booklet pane



...and just for fun, here's the reverse of the above piece (apparently mailed from Dresden):


4 (reverse).
second Germany 1919 booklet pane - reverse
second Germany 1919 booklet pane - reverse



If I'm reading the catalog pages you posted correctly, then the newly added 1919 pane (image #4, above), *may in fact be* H-21 aa A 1.


All of this probably means I need to buy the Michel booklet catalog (and learn German)....


Cheers,

c-s-s-s

User avatar
johnrcrow
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 3631
Joined: 04 Feb 2012 09:18
Location: Idolsberg, Austria
Contact:

Re: Help with ID + value, 1919 German booklet panes on piece?

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks c-s-s-s

Yes you are correct about the identification of the scan 4 with the slim line of horizontal dashes on the left.

Should be the later pane 21 aa A1. There is a gap on top left of the vertical line of dashes so I have shown the difference between 21 A aa A1 and 21 A aa A2 as shown in manual. Your ´gap`is probably an ink failure as compared with the spacing and size of gaps in the A2

I was mistaken in identifying the earliest shown pane that had a margin with no embellishments. This has to be earlier pane that has no markings on the border I think as 21 aa A 0.

Yes, get the Handbook as it shows all the panes and all the various combinations for all the German stamp issues and this is a great area for collecting. All of 367 pages of information and good illustrations in colour as well as CV estimations.

Michel handbook differences in panes 21 A aa  A1 and A2
Michel handbook differences in panes 21 A aa A1 and A2

Enlargment of left margin of booklet pane under consideration a 21 A aa A1 or A2.
Enlargment of left margin of booklet pane under consideration a 21 A aa A1 or A2.

User avatar
cere-sear-seer-sere
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Posts: 61
Joined: 14 Jul 2021 05:23
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA

Re: Help with ID + value, 1919 German booklet panes on piece?

Post by cere-sear-seer-sere »

I'm looking for a copy of this catalog now -- thanks again.

c-s-s-s

User avatar
Phila-Tourist
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 165
Joined: 19 Feb 2021 05:58
Location: Europe

Re: Help with ID + value, 1919 German booklet panes on piece?

Post by Phila-Tourist »

The handwritten text fragment says "Durch Eilboten zu beste[llen]. Nicht Nachts. Bote [...]"

Translation:
"By special delivery. Not during nighttime. Postman [...]"

The background to the second element is that at least until the 1990s letters addressed to certain big towns in Germany could be sent express with 24/7 delivery, so the mailman would come even at 2 or 3 a.m. if the letter happened to reach the delivery post office at this ungodly hour. Why the sender found it necessary to exclude this service is unclear because it would have been evident from the rate alone: nighttime usually cost approx. twice the standard express fee. It's a bit like writing on a registered letter "NOT with advice of delivery".

The last fragment may have been a supplementary instruction to the postman.

User avatar
cere-sear-seer-sere
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Black Ninja Star! Board Posting Addict.
Posts: 61
Joined: 14 Jul 2021 05:23
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA

Re: Help with ID + value, 1919 German booklet panes on piece?

Post by cere-sear-seer-sere »

Thank you for the translation and the further context!

- c.s.s.s

Post Reply

Return to “NO question is too basic or silly - you ask - we WILL help you with it!”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: acutipuerilis and 1 guest