Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

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Re: Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

Post by maszki »

The latest news from the UN....

https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/11/1052171.

"Even if countries meet commitments made under the 2015 Paris Agreement, the world is heading for a 3.2 degrees Celsius global temperature rise over pre-industrial levels, leading to even wider-ranging and more destructive climate impacts, warns a report from the UN Environment Programme, released on Tuesday."

My response?

"No (word voluntarily deleted by Maszki) Sherlock?

The sceptics have been saying that the objectives cannot be met for years. They claim you are going in the wrong direction

SO, UN/IPCC if the 1.5 degree rise cannot be constrained WHERE ARE YOUR PLANS FOR US TO ADAPT TO THE CHANGING ENVIRONMENT???

Where are the contingency plans?

Where is the discussion of OPTIONS?

You- the 'consensus of scientists' -have had 30 years to adequately investigate climate change, to identify the REAL causes, consider options and develop a co-ordinated response; and all we get is catastrophic predictions, none of which have came to fruition. Is this just another 'cry wolf' prediction so that another $ trillion or more is shovelled into the bank accounts of the profiteers?

I'm sure you have the media under control and you will blame the problem on climate change deniers, but they have nothing to do with your lack of adequate investigation...indeed you have totally ignored their input.

You, the UN/IPCC have set yourselves as the 'gurus' of climate change. YOU claim the expertise, so 'expertise' the planet out of these dire predictions"

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Re: Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

Post by piaoyou »

maszki wrote:
09 Jul 2020 19:48
The latest news from the UN....

https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/11/1052171.

"Even if countries meet commitments made under the 2015 Paris Agreement, the world is heading for a 3.2 degrees Celsius global temperature rise over pre-industrial levels, leading to even wider-ranging and more destructive climate impacts, warns a report from the UN Environment Programme, released on Tuesday."

My response?

"No (word voluntarily deleted by Maszki) Sherlock?

The sceptics have been saying that the objectives cannot be met for years. They claim you are going in the wrong direction

SO, UN/IPCC if the 1.5 degree rise cannot be constrained WHERE ARE YOUR PLANS FOR US TO ADAPT TO THE CHANGING ENVIRONMENT???

Where are the contingency plans?

Where is the discussion of OPTIONS?

You- the 'consensus of scientists' -have had 30 years to adequately investigate climate change, to identify the REAL causes, consider options and develop a co-ordinated response; and all we get is catastrophic predictions, none of which have came to fruition. Is this just another 'cry wolf' prediction so that another $ trillion or more is shovelled into the bank accounts of the profiteers?

I'm sure you have the media under control and you will blame the problem on climate change deniers, but they have nothing to do with your lack of adequate investigation...indeed you have totally ignored their input.

You, the UN/IPCC have set yourselves as the 'gurus' of climate change. YOU claim the expertise, so 'expertise' the planet out of these dire predictions"
Couldn't agree more.

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Re: Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

Post by maszki »

The dire predictions are still flooding in.....

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/national/2020/09/10/economic ... 2020200910

At least the time scale has been extended to 2038 Perhaps this is a recognition that the objectives to be met by 2030 are TOTALLY unattainable.

...and there still remains no Plan B...Oh, sorry...perhaps there is.

From the article....."The trees helping German forests tackle climate change. German researchers are experimenting with planting Mediterranean trees in German forests in a bid to help them survive climate change. Emer McCarthy reports."

So perhaps someone in Germany is looking at adaption rather than catastrophic predictions.

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Re: Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

Post by mobbor »

In Australia, the Federal Government is being dragged kicking and screaming towards doing something about climate change. Coal is 'king', just as it is in Poland.

But the general population is installing rooftop solar faster than anyone imagined. My last bill was $8.66credit. In the last 3 years I have produced 43,000 kwh. The price of feed-in is going down, because there is now actually a surplus of power in the middle of the day. Sure, you can't make solar power at night, but with ever improving batteries, that won't matter soon.

Whole towns are acting together to get off the grid altogether. And so are large businesses. And then there are VPP's (virtual power plants) where communities store their excess electricity in a large battery. When there is a risk of a blackout, the wholesale price of electricity can reach $300 per kwh, so as well as rescuing the grid, there is money to be made................
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Re: Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

Post by 22028 »

I produce in average on a yearly base about 7000 kwh and get a reimbursement of about 28 Eurocents per kwh i feed into the system and about 16 Eurocents per kwh for electricity i produce and which i consume myself.
Roughly said, heating of my house (heat pump which runs on electricity) and electricity we consume does not cost me anything..., of course, i had to pay the solar cells initially...
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Re: Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum, 2016

Post by GB 789 »

MODERATOR COMMENT:

This post and the EIGHT subsequent posts have been moved from the BREXIT thread to this Climate Change thread where they have more relevance.

collectordave wrote:
12 Aug 2021 16:20

Please do not assume that simply because I do not live in Britain that I am any less British and that I have no idea of the reality in England.

Please also do not assume that there is any animosity in my post when none is there. They are simple observations.

I will also ask that you do not pigeon hole me as a European.

My statements are actually pointing out a few worries I have over the future.

The 350 million a week which has not happened and the understanding of the 'Take back control' shows, to me, that the current government is quite willing to use extremely misleading statements to achieve some goal of which I am unaware. How many more statements like these will the government issue over the coming years?

As for moveing on to common interests such as climate change and the threats to world peace. I served my time in the British forces to lend my small weight behind the Uk in its position as a peacemaker in the world. I also dedicated my career to energy management and controls helping state organisations such as the NHS as well as some of the larger businesses in the UK to save energy and by so doing slow down the use of fossil fuels in industry. I preferred the practical approach to that of carrying a banner telling people to 'tackle climate change now' as I do realise that many people have no idea about the actions that can be taken by themselves to help tackle climate change.

It is not a case for me to move on but to wait for others to catch up.

As you point out Portugal is Britains oldest ally and after living in Portugal for a while it is obvious to me that Britain could learn from Portugals example on the use of renewable energy.
A few points to the above. First off concerning that £350 million statement, that was a case (as demonstrated multiple times on this thread) of meaningless statistics being thrown about that don’t actually mean anything in the scheme of things. Likewise, to suggest it’s just the British government who can’t be trusted is rather ironic when EVERY government is the same. You just look at the corruption that has occurred at the top of the French government in recent times, as well as the Italian government under Berlusconi to see that the EU is far from the model of political decency either.

Likewise, I have a close acquaintance heavily involved with one of the larger Portuguese football teams and the stories they tell about ‘dodgy’ dealings shows that there is plenty of corruption running through there too. No where is exactly perfect!

As for climate change, the issue the majority of the world has is that even if their country adopts significant measures, if the likes of China and the USA do not, it’s pretty negligible the difference that can be made. The only way this situation can be sorted is if China and the USA are committed to change, the rest of us can do all we like but ultimately it won’t make much difference at all.

One issue facing the EU related to this is getting those poorer Eastern European nations to adopt similar climate friendly initiatives but this is going to need significant subsidy from the richer EU nations to build the infrastructure. Is there enough determination to do this? Hopefully but past experience suggests this will be a very slow process.

Likewise, whole European initiatives related to better health, particularly iradicating smoking. Many European countries still have high levels of tobacco use compared to the U.K. and this is something that needs to be tackled EU wide. Do people really want to change that is the question?

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Re: Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum, 2016

Post by GB 789 »

collectordave wrote:
12 Aug 2021 23:22
GB 789 wrote:
12 Aug 2021 19:01

A few points to the above. First off concerning that £350 million statement, that was a case (as demonstrated multiple times on this thread) of meaningless statistics being thrown about that don’t actually mean anything in the scheme of things. Likewise, to suggest it’s just the British government who can’t be trusted is rather ironic when EVERY government is the same. You just look at the corruption that has occurred at the top of the French government in recent times, as well as the Italian government under Berlusconi to see that the EU is far from the model of political decency either.

The £350 million statement was not just a meaningless statistic the statement made on the side of the big red bus is a fact it definitely was there, there is a picture of it somewhere on this forum!

At no point have I suggested it is only the British government that cannot be trusted, those are your words not mine.

GB 789 wrote:
12 Aug 2021 19:01

Likewise, I have a close acquaintance heavily involved with one of the larger Portuguese football teams and the stories they tell about ‘dodgy’ dealings shows that there is plenty of corruption running through there too. No where is exactly perfect!
A few dodgy dealings in a football team do not, in my opinion, compare with the government of a country deliberately setting out to confuse and influence their citizens with false statements.

GB 789 wrote:
12 Aug 2021 19:01

As for climate change, the issue the majority of the world has is that even if their country adopts significant measures, if the likes of China and the USA do not, it’s pretty negligible the difference that can be made. The only way this situation can be sorted is if China and the USA are committed to change, the rest of us can do all we like but ultimately it won’t make much difference at all.
Are you suggesting that the individual should do nothing until America and China lead the way?

In my experience an individual can make a difference even if only in a small way.

GB 789 wrote:
12 Aug 2021 19:01

One issue facing the EU related to this is getting those poorer Eastern European nations to adopt similar climate friendly initiatives but this is going to need significant subsidy from the richer EU nations to build the infrastructure. Is there enough determination to do this? Hopefully but past experience suggests this will be a very slow process.
Including the poorer Eastern European nations into the EU will mean that the EU will help these nations where possible to advance, if that means helping build infrastructure then it can be done.

Yes it will be a slow process but if you do not start something you can never finish it.

GB 789 wrote:
12 Aug 2021 19:01

Likewise, whole European initiatives related to better health, particularly eradicating smoking. Many European countries still have high levels of tobacco use compared to the U.K. and this is something that needs to be tackled EU wide. Do people really want to change that is the question?
Better health should be subject to worldwide initiatives but in the mean time, as you point out, the EU has started its own initiatives without waiting for the rest of the world.
But you are accusing all of the current British government of this ‘lie’ when actually a fair number of the current government were anti-Brexit supporters in David Cameron’s government in 2016. Many others were not even part of the government then so how can you tar them with that sweeping statement.

Likewise, there was some dodgy claims made from both sides but neither were anywhere near the level of deceit and corruption that Sarkozy and Berlusconi were accused of. You say I put words in your mouth yet you keep up the rhetoric that the British government is corrupt because of Brexit claims. It simply isn’t.

I have no doubt there is plenty of unsavoury backhanders going on in Westminster (as will be happening in the Portuguese government too) but it’s an absolute joke to even put us in the same category for political corruption compared to many Mediterranean EU countries. We are small players compared to that criminality.

And your view of the ‘individual’ making a difference to climate change is a nice ‘lefty’ concept (peddled by Guardian no doubt) but it is sadly not the reality. Every single one of us in Europe - 300 million+ people - could change tomorrow to be more eco- friendly but the difference that would make to global change would be negligible if China, India and the USA don’t do likewise. COLLECTIVE action, not woke individualism that is more about showing off to the world how noble and moral they are, is our only chance to stop global warming.

Communism doesn’t allow for individualism so China will not adopt these climate ideas unless it is a collective decision from the ruling party. What we do in Europe won’t make any difference to the world’s longer term prospects if larger nations aren’t on board too. I’m sure it gives western environmentalists a warm feeling to think driving their electric car is saving the world. The reality is it isn’t and nothing will make a difference long term until we completely change our capitalist system and stop relying on China for 90% of manufactured goods.

A solution to climate change may be to make things less global and more localised. This will no doubt result in price rises as things will have to be more expensive than getting everything from China, but it will be worth it.

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Re: Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum, 2016

Post by collectordave »

GB 789 wrote:
13 Aug 2021 02:23
You appear to be excusing anything the government do that can be viewed to be bad is all OK as long as you can find another government or individual that can be seen to be worse.

This appears to mean that we should all support our government no matter what they tell us as long as there is a government somewhere worse than ours.

I actually believe in the individual. Each citizen can learn from this and start to question what is being said instead of blind acceptance.

Your view of climate change appears to be that we should all just give up until the USA, China and now India start to take action against climate change.

Where you say we should all now move on and tackle such things as climate change are you saying we should all forget Brexit now and do nothing as the big boys will not listen?

Again the individual can make a difference the western environmentalists that drive electric cars that I have met do not get a warm feeling and do not pretend that their individual effort will tackle climate change, however they do have the courage to change what they can change without waiting for everyone to catch up.

After all, we all need to accept the things we cannot change as I accept Brexit cannot be changed now but I also accept that I was subject to misinformation in statements made by members of the British political establishment.

However I do have the courage to change the things I can change.

I cannot afford an electric car but there are some very small things I can do, such as change all incandescent lamps in my house for LED lamps reducing my consumption of electricity on lighting by nearly 70%. I am under no illusion that my individual effort will affect climate change and I do not get a warm feeling but there are benefits that do give me a little pleasure, the reduction in my electricity bill now allows me to spend more on my stamps.

Even in the face of a few bullies, whether these be individuals or whole countries, giving up is not an option.
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Re: Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum, 2016

Post by GB 789 »

collectordave wrote:
13 Aug 2021 16:18
GB 789 wrote:
13 Aug 2021 02:23
You appear to be excusing anything the government do that can be viewed to be bad is all OK as long as you can find another government or individual that can be seen to be worse.

This appears to mean that we should all support our government no matter what they tell us as long as there is a government somewhere worse than ours.

I actually believe in the individual. Each citizen can learn from this and start to question what is being said instead of blind acceptance.

Your view of climate change appears to be that we should all just give up until the USA, China and now India start to take action against climate change.

Where you say we should all now move on and tackle such things as climate change are you saying we should all forget Brexit now and do nothing as the big boys will not listen?

Again the individual can make a difference the western environmentalists that drive electric cars that I have met do not get a warm feeling and do not pretend that their individual effort will tackle climate change, however they do have the courage to change what they can change without waiting for everyone to catch up.

After all, we all need to accept the things we cannot change as I accept Brexit cannot be changed now but I also accept that I was subject to misinformation in statements made by members of the British political establishment.

However I do have the courage to change the things I can change.

I cannot afford an electric car but there are some very small things I can do, such as change all incandescent lamps in my house for LED lamps reducing my consumption of electricity on lighting by nearly 70%. I am under no illusion that my individual effort will affect climate change and I do not get a warm feeling but there are benefits that do give me a little pleasure, the reduction in my electricity bill now allows me to spend more on my stamps.

Even in the face of a few bullies, whether these be individuals or whole countries, giving up is not an option.
I respect your opinion towards climate change and I do not wish to come across as some sort of crazy climate change denier as I am very much for changing our ways as a world. It’s just I seem to be more pessimistic in my views about the impact of our individual changes on the long term prospects and the need for this to be a ‘whole world’ change.

Fingers crossed we ultimately all make the right choice for the greater good of everyone.

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Re: Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum, 2016

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Yes the EU politicians pay lip service to mitigating climate change but the inhabitants of a German village are out protesting about the possible demolition of their village to expand lignite mining- the dirtiest of coals. Other citizens are sitting in trees to try to stop them cutting them down for the same reason.

Rich Germans can feel smug as they drive their new (very expensive) electric Audi- but if much of the electricity is produced using fossil fuels then the whole exercise is pointless! Same here where almost half our electricity is still produced by fossil fuels.

It is interesting that the output from fossil fuels in Germany has remained almost unchanged since 2002, the renewables have simply made up for extra demand! This is probably true of many advanced nations. (Although not the United Kingdom, strangely).
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts
https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/united-kingdom

Slightly off topic but showing that we need cooperation- not politically motivated bickering, with our neighbours.

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Re: Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum, 2016

Post by collectordave »

I too have a very pessimistic view of the ability of the worlds governments to combat climate change. At times it appears to me that they cannot even agree not to kill each other.

The output of most of the climate change meetings just appears to be who can brag the most with such statements as 'we will reduce our reliance on fossil fuels by 60% by 2035'. The one question that is never answered is HOW?

They seem more like squabbling children than responsible governments.

One answer to HOW? Is based around the individual.

My view of the individual making a change is born from years of thought and a little inspiration. One individual once said 'Be today what you want the future to be' which for me has a real ring of truth in it.

So an individual like me changing his lamps has a very small impact but when multiplied by thousands or hopefully millions it makes a large impact.

I do accept that if, for instance, individuals in the UK make the change, as soon as it becomes apparent the politicians will be the first to stand-in front of the cameras telling the world what good boys they have been.

That is all well and good but an idea with no path for growth is bound to fail.

A little imagination is needed here. If in a council area a majority of individuals are of the same mind it sends a very clear message to councillors that wish to be elected 'Tell us what you are going to do about climate change and how?'.

Again words without ideas are cheap. So you can look at what can an individual council do? Well councils are responsible for street lighting some innovation here could be to install solar powered street lighting, this has been done on a small scale in some places already.

Some councils may also be able to help poorer families with changing their lamps easing just a little poverty as the families pay less to the electric companies etc.

When enough individual councils are on board then this will send a clear message to national government ' stop bragging about what you want to achieve and tell us HOW?'

There are of course many things a national government can do to combat climate change and we can consider one.

As @OldDuffer1 has pointed out driving an electric car that is recharged by the use of fossil fuels is pointless, in fact it is worse than pointless, it requires a lot more fuel when taking into account transmission costs etc.

Just a little more innovation is needed, why not develop a package to charge the vehicle at home using renewable energy such as solar and wind power? The slogan "Top up your car at home for free" could encourage more to take up the idea which could then be extended to a lot of work places and even to such areas as motorway service stations so when driving your electric car on the motorway you can refuel at a service station for free.

We already have the technology we just need the will.

I do not want to come across as some end of the world is nigh freak, these are just the ramblings of one oldish man.

To copy GB789

Fingers crossed we ultimately all make the right choice for the greater good of everyone.
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Re: Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum, 2016

Post by collectordave »

Just to add a little explanation about energy saving.

One of the big problems with electricity is the transmission of the electricity from where it is generated to where it is used this involves something called transmission losses.

When go around the country you can see the transmission lines overhead on the pylons each of these wires are radiating heat into the atmosphere. I will not bore you with electrical theory but you can get an understanding of what is going on by looking at your pop up toaster. When you but the bread in to toast you can see the wires inside glowing red radiating heat to toast your bread this is the same effect that happens on all the transmission lines you see.

The lines do not glow red as they are larger wires than the ones in your toaster and the voltage is much higher. The electricians amongst you will understand that.

Now in the UK the transmission losses amounted to 26.73 terrawatt hours in 2019. A massive amount of power.

There are ways to reduce this loss one is as I mentioned above raising the voltage, this one has been done across the UK as far as possible everyone must have seen the Danger High Voltage signs?

I am interested in two other ways of reducing this power loss.

The first is to reduce the amount of power transmitted, remember in my earlier post about changing your lamps to LEDS? Not only does this save you money on your electric bill it also means that the power you no longer use does not have to be transmitted. Negligible, I know, but still a saving.

The second method is to reduce the distance over which the power has to be transmitted. Here we can think about electric cars if the power generated to recharge these cars can be produced locally then there is no addition to transmission losses.

Imagine if all of a sudden everyone drives an electric car then all that power will have to be transmitted with the massive increase in transmission losses.

Most motorway service stations have space for solar panels and/or wind turbines taking off that power requirement from the transmission lines.

Here is a link to a site showing the losses over the years:-

https://www.statista.com/statistics/550583/electricity-losses-in-transmission-uk

Now 26.3 Terawatts is 26.3 million million watts.

One ton of coal, on average produces 2,500 Kilowatts of power so removing these losses could mean burning 10,520,000 tons of coal less.

With such large figures even a small change can be significant.
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Re: Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum, 2016

Post by 22028 »

collectordave wrote:
14 Aug 2021 19:27
Just to add a little explanation about energy saving

With such large figures even a small change can be significant.
For many years i had been Site Manager for turnkey projects for Energy Management Systems (EMS & DMS) and know what you are talking about. The load dispatch centres usually have also computer programs (now called applications) to optimise the power flow to minimise transmission losses.

But speaking for myself, much can be done on individual base.

My house has photovoltaic panels on the roof (a bit less than 10 KW), heating and hot water is produced by a heat pump with 3 geothermal boreholes which reduced the heating costs incl hot water (energy costs) by 66 %
We also have a cistern in the garden with a capacity of 10000 ltr. used for toilets and watering the garden.
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Re: Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum, 2016

Post by collectordave »

First I need to correct an omission in my post.

The correct power designation should be Terawatt-hours and Kilowatt-hours as it is based over time and not instantaneous power.

Hi @22028 thanks you have now doubled the number of people I know taking individual action.

Any more?
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Re: Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Surprising this thread has lapsed recently, considering recent events such as (apparently) unprecedented forest fires and flooding. One of the problems is that obviously extreme weather events have always occurred in the past and presumably we have fairly sketchy data about them. Only careful study can show whether these are becoming more frequent/intense.

One expert recently said that in 30 years Vietnam, for instance, will be mostly covered by water, (and presumably many other places- New York?), due to rising sea levels. Due to the lag in the global climate system little we do will change this, if true.

Of course, the early results of these changes could be a breakdown of some Societies possibly leading to a "lock down" attitude in the more developed Countries.

There seem to be many who would prefer to ignore or deny these coming problems but do we really want to be remembered as that generation who were so selfish that we let it all happen?

Hopefully the debate will continue here.

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Re: Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

Post by 22028 »

There were a few related posts made on the Brexit thread, maybe they can be merged/moved to this thread?
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Re: Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

Post by gavin-h »

22028 wrote:
15 Aug 2021 22:55
There were a few related posts made on the Brexit thread, maybe they can be merged/moved to this thread?
Yes, the NINE posts in question have now been moved to this thread and appear above in chronological order. :idea:

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Re: Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

Post by collectordave »

Hi all

I did not know this thread existed, thanks for moving the posts away from the Brexit thread.

Having heard all the 'evidence' for global warming I am inclined to agree that man is having an effect on the climate.

For me I try to look at what ever facts are around the only one I can think of at the moment is that fossil fuels are a finite resource and as such will one day run out.

We have seen the rise of several comments such as 'Combat global warming', 'Save our planet' and one I liked 'save ourselves'.

Given the fact that fossil fuels will one day run out I prefer to look at it as 'let's future proof the planet'.

For the whole world to be future proofed requires the political will of politicians around the world. So what is political will?

All politicians are human (I hope) so when in power they want that to continue in a democracy they need the people to vote for them so you get the promises. Hello all you pensioners vote for us and we will give you a 10 pounds a week pension rise or other promises targeted at the group of people they believe the vote from which will keep them in power.

So when there is a natural disaster where the blame can be placed on 'Global Warming' which hits the headlines, the political will is then to tackle global warming so we see the meetings on global warming spring up all round the world where, it seems to me, the politicians simply brag about how much they will reduce their reliance on fossil fuels but they never explain how.

In my career I have heard some phrases such as 'you need to see the big picture' and 'what we need is a quick fix'. If you look at the problem as 'future proofing the planet' these can be applied.

Fortunately for everyone 'the big picture' is easy to grasp, fossil fuels will run out at some point in the future. Unfortunately for the worlds politicians there is no 'quick fix'.

To make a start on how it can be fixed you need to take a global view. Where does the earth get external and sustainable power from? I can only think of two the sun and the moon. Remember the sun powers the climate s solar panels, wind farms and hydro are all based on the energy from the sun. The moon, sometimes combined with the sun, provides the tides.

As everyone is aware the sun does not always shine, the winds do not always blow and even the rain does not always fall but we always want more power. There is also the need to have power available in mobile situations such as driving a car.

A two pronged attack is needed the first and easiest is to reduce our reliance on power, as I mentioned above changing incandescent lamps for LED lamps is one small and quick way for all. Others are mentioned I the posts on this thread that I have read. This could be enhanced by local councils and national governments in easy ways.

The second method, which of course just has to be more complex, is to provide more sustainable power. The power requirements can be split in two. There is a static power requirement for such things as the home, office blocks and factories etc. there is also a mobile power requirement for things such as cars, lorries etc.

Common to both as mentioned above sustainable power is not always available but there is always a need for power. The trick here is storage, everyone is familiar with batteries etc.

For static power larger storage is required. Mentioned on the thread is pumped hydro now here this can be used imagine the pumps pushing the water uphill powered by solar (including wind etc.) now we have power stored when no sustainable power is available.

Great for the static power requirement not much use when driving your electric car so a different approach is needed to tackle the mobile requirement.

Luckily there is one method that could be adopted. Hydrogen fuel cells.

The drawback is in the title Hydrogen fuel, so where can you get hydrogen from? Remember the school physics and chemistry lessons where you were taught about electrolysis? Well hydrogen can be extracted from water so all that is needed is to extract hydrogen from water using sustainable energy.

We already have the technology to carry liquid fuels in cars (LPG not petrol) and the hydrogen fuel cell converts hydrogen into electricity, heat and water. The electric part could be used to power your car.

There are also many other ways some a lot less technical where sustainable energy can be used to power mobile machinery.
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Re: Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

Post by Cill Dara »

My meagre contribution to the planet.... 8-)

I planted over 100 trees in the 1980s at my current location, 80% of them what I would term as real trees.....
beech,oak (Dair in Irish, as in Dara), chestnut, lime, plane, rowan, ash.

They are all doing fine and will outlive me. :mrgreen:

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Post by castores »

Cill Dara wrote:
18 Aug 2021 01:49
My meagre contribution to the planet.... 8-)

I planted over 100 trees in the 1980s at my current location, 80% of them what I would term as real trees.....
beech,oak (Dair in Irish, as in Dara), chestnut, lime, plane, rowan, ash.

They are all doing fine and will outlive me. :mrgreen:
If there was an up-tick box Cill Dara I would give you one. I too am trying to leave a carbon sink in the long term. Also a haven for all creatures, suburbia must remember to allow birds, insects, lizards, etc to flourish - note no pesticides required when you have nature on your side.
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Post by castores »

Tailings entering river systems and/or groundwater, trash islands in all oceans, palm oil and destruction of rainforests, loss of tall kelp and coral reefs, acidification and/or degradation of top soil, extinction of flora and fauna, loss of glaciers and permafrost, and the list goes on.

Reminds me of an Aussie saying "She'll be right mate"

..... Well she won't

A "Sun-burnt Country" might be about to burn us in the ass!
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Re: Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

Post by satsuma »

collectordave wrote:
16 Aug 2021 19:06

Having heard all the 'evidence' for global warming I am inclined to agree that man is having an effect on the climate.

For me I try to look at what ever facts are around the only one I can think of at the moment is that fossil fuels are a finite resource and as such will one day run out.

We have seen the rise of several comments such as 'Combat global warming', 'Save our planet' and one I liked 'save ourselves'.

Given the fact that fossil fuels will one day run out I prefer to look at it as 'let's future proof the planet'.

Fortunately for everyone 'the big picture' is easy to grasp, fossil fuels will run out at some point in the future. Unfortunately for the worlds politicians there is no 'quick fix'.
With respect, and comparatively speaking, fossil fuel exhaustion is one of the bigger small pictures.

The big one is that the world's population is growing exponentially and arable land and potable water are not.

Again, unfortunately for both politicians specifically and humanity generally there is no quick fix.

The only government that has ever addressed the issue failed miserably even with totalitarian rule.

There are only four ways to mitigate overpopulation. Less babies, shorter lives decimation by disease, or off-planet settlement.

So without some solution to overpopulation, it's arguable whether a lessening of power use per capita will achieve enough breathing space to develop solutions to the other problems.

Forty years ago Beijing was awash with bicycles - now it's awash with cars, because more people wanting more consumer goods is an economic driver and helps pay for the development of military might.

Unfortunately, the down sides, and there are several, are all bad for the planet.

The really simple equation of more people equals more heat equals more warming seems to be heresy among our political planners, probably because they, like me, have no solutions to offer.

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Post by castores »

With respect Satsuma, it is very multi in the reasons behind and very multi in how to arrest.

And China has just passed legislation for 3 child families.
While many populations follow the path of decline in births.
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Post by satsuma »

Yes. Japan is experiencing a decline in births but that birth rate is still higher than the mortality rate. So the population is still growing.

Unfortunately, due to a worsening imbalance between the aged and the workforce; the drivers of the economy are under significant pressure.

In one of the most densely populated countries of the world, the government there has been mulling importing more workers to keep the wheels turning.

Japan has been far from self sufficent in food production for years and despite their wealth is facing a bleak future.

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Post by nigelc »

satsuma wrote:
25 Aug 2021 06:57
Yes. Japan is experiencing a decline in births but that birth rate is still higher than the mortality rate. So the population is still growing.

Unfortunately, due to a worsening imbalance between the aged and the workforce; the drivers of the economy are under significant pressure.

In one of the most densely populated countries of the world, the government there has been mulling importing more workers to keep the wheels turning.

Japan has been far from self sufficent in food production for years and despite their wealth is facing a bleak future.
Hi satsuma,

The Japanese population has been declining since its peak in 2008 and is now more than two million less since then.
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Post by satsuma »

Yes. I got the overall population trend wrong by looking at the wrong data. Sorry about that.

However of note it is estimated that as many as 400 thousand emigrant workers less than usual have been denied entry since covid started.

I believe the rest of my post was accurate.

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Post by Brit-Col »

In my country over-population is being addressed at least in part by those volunteering for early extinction by their refusal to get vaccinated or wear masks.

:mrgreen:

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Re: Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

Post by collectordave »

With respect I have always found that if responsibility for anything can be avoided by any excuse then that is what will happen either for an individual or for groups.

Global warming, or whatever else you want to call it, is a big problem which needs a big excuse if responsibility is to be avoided.

We already have "Until China, USA and India do something nothing we do will change it".

Now we have Over-population.

I am sure we can think of a few more.

All that remains is to tell our children "I would have done something about it if (pick your excuse from the above)".

Now I can relax responsibility avoided.
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Post by satsuma »

Well, that was an unexpected interpretation of my posts.

I did not suggest we should do nothing until overpopulation was solved.

I clearly said that overpopulation was a bigger problem than fossil fuel exhaustion and nobody seems to want to consider it nor plan for the consequences.

.....

As an aside:

One of the things that annoys me about NZ's trumpeting of its clean energy sources is that 100+ years ago land was reserved for tidal power generation between Auckland's Manakau and Waitemata harbours when technically possible; but nothing eventuated and now when the technology is available the land has been used for other purposes.

Like many countries NZ has some visionary thinkers but also a preponderance of short sighted politicians.

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Post by Brit-Col »

satsuma wrote:
25 Aug 2021 18:21
I clearly said that overpopulation was a bigger problem than fossil fuel exhaustion and nobody seems to want to consider it nor plan for the consequences.
And what do you suggest be done?

I don’t mean this to be challenging or confronting. I’m genuinely curious what can be done.

We have one of the most populous nations on earth, China, reversing the long time one child policy and now encouraging three children. As discussed above similar concerns are being voiced in Japan and other nations with shrinking populations. In other countries there are far more young people than there are available jobs.

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Re: Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

Post by uncadonego »

Brit-Col wrote:
25 Aug 2021 13:29
In my country over-population is being addressed at least in part by those volunteering for early extinction by their refusal to get vaccinated or wear masks.

:mrgreen:

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Post by satsuma »

Brit-Col wrote:
27 Aug 2021 12:09
satsuma wrote:
25 Aug 2021 18:21
I clearly said that overpopulation was a bigger problem than fossil fuel exhaustion and nobody seems to want to consider it nor plan for the consequences.
And what do you suggest be done?

BC
Studies have shown that the better educated girls between puberty and becoming adult are the more likely the birth rate is to come down.

This is usually attributed to three downstream consequences.
Awareness of contraceptive choices and an increased likelihood of demand for them. This leads to an increased gap between generations.
Awareness of other life choices than just mothering and a consequential demand for them. This also leads to an increased gap between generations.
A lessening of infant mortality which reduces the 'heir and spare' paradigm.

It's been argued that the main reason for Japan's population decline is the increased generation gap due to elderly primigravida becoming a social norm.

....

In some countries the most effective move would be to challenge church teaching on birth control. Imagine how effective a paradigm would be that required churches to either lose their charity status; or pay for all the orphanages; or stop preaching against contraception in the Philippines or Mexico or Indonesia.

The trouble is that any politico who endorsed such a policy would likely be assassinated :shock: before it became law.

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Post by Brit-Col »

satsuma wrote:
27 Aug 2021 13:32
Brit-Col wrote:
27 Aug 2021 12:09
satsuma wrote:
25 Aug 2021 18:21
I clearly said that overpopulation was a bigger problem than fossil fuel exhaustion and nobody seems to want to consider it nor plan for the consequences.
And what do you suggest be done?

BC
In some countries the most effective move would be to challenge church teaching on birth control. Imagine how effective a paradigm would be that required churches to either lose their charity status; or pay for all the orphanages; or stop preaching against contraception in the Philippines or Mexico or Indonesia.

The trouble is that any politico who endorsed such a policy would likely be assassinated :shock: before it became law.
I completely agree. I have often thought that the greatest good the Pope could do is to receive a vision from God that the goal of “be fruitful and multiply” has been accomplished and that “sustain but no more” is the new commandment.

This contradicts the fact that a growing population is needed to sustain a growing economy. At some point we’re going to have to reconsider what we mean by a healthy economy.

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Post by uncadonego »

Yes. We face the sixth great extinction, this time by our own doing, if we don't stop expanding.

We also need to learn to be happy with what we have, but that will not happen. Never will we allow ourselves to have less so that others with nothing could have more.

I don't think it's going to get better, and one person won't help, but quite a while ago I stopped eating anything with an animal product in it.

We have taken the earth as it was, as it lead to our rise, and changed it to something completely different.

If we all stopped eating "factory" produced beef and eggs and milk, and other foods, we could still feed the world, but also reclaim much needed land to return to wetlands and meadows and forests.

Why raise 5.5 to 6.5 pounds of feed to make a pound of beef, when starving people could eat the 6.5 pounds of plant based food instead?

The huge amounts of water animals take as well is crazy. With so many people, why have we stripped the planet of CO2 sequestering trees and bushes, just to run a protein factory in reverse?
In the hypothetical scenario in which the entire world adopted a vegan diet the researchers estimate that our total agricultural land use would shrink from 4.1 billion hectares to 1 billion hectares. A reduction of 75%. That's equal to an area the size of North America and Brazil combined
https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets#:~:text=In%20the%2 ... 20combined.

So stopping population growth, in addition to adopting a vegan diet, could in a possible hypothetical situation, allow us to reclaim 3.1 billion hectares of trees and meadows and wetlands.

Of course, none of this will ever happen.

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Re: Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

Post by satsuma »

Here's some data which gives food for thought:

numbers.jpg


Note: 2013 Data

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Post by asmodeus »

Topic: Overpopulation:

“May we live long and die out”

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Re: Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

Post by nigelc »

uncadonego wrote:
27 Aug 2021 14:18
Yes. We face the sixth great extinction, this time by our own doing, if we don't stop expanding.

We also need to learn to be happy with what we have, but that will not happen. Never will we allow ourselves to have less so that others with nothing could have more.

I don't think it's going to get better, and one person won't help, but quite a while ago I stopped eating anything with an animal product in it.

We have taken the earth as it was, as it lead to our rise, and changed it to something completely different.

If we all stopped eating "factory" produced beef and eggs and milk, and other foods, we could still feed the world, but also reclaim much needed land to return to wetlands and meadows and forests.

Why raise 5.5 to 6.5 pounds of feed to make a pound of beef, when starving people could eat the 6.5 pounds of plant based food instead?

The huge amounts of water animals take as well is crazy. With so many people, why have we stripped the planet of CO2 sequestering trees and bushes, just to run a protein factory in reverse?
In the hypothetical scenario in which the entire world adopted a vegan diet the researchers estimate that our total agricultural land use would shrink from 4.1 billion hectares to 1 billion hectares. A reduction of 75%. That's equal to an area the size of North America and Brazil combined
https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets#:~:text=In%20the%2 ... 20combined.

So stopping population growth, in addition to adopting a vegan diet, could in a possible hypothetical situation, allow us to reclaim 3.1 billion hectares of trees and meadows and wetlands.

Of course, none of this will ever happen.
I can understand why someone may wish to have a vegan diet, but neither food production limits nor human health should require it.

Traditionally pastured livestock uses relatively little water and improves soil quality. It also provides a very healthy source of food.

We need to reduce significantly both our factory farming of livestock using inappropriate feedstuffs and our intensive crop production that together deplete soil quality and waste scarce land.

As a society we need to focus much more on the quality of human nutrition and the equitable availability of healthy food.
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Re: Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

Post by uncadonego »

Livestock takes up nearly 80% of global agricultural land, yet produces less than 20% of the world’s supply of calories

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Re: Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

Post by nigelc »

uncadonego wrote:
27 Aug 2021 23:44
Livestock takes up nearly 80% of global agricultural land, yet produces less than 20% of the world’s supply of calories
Just as nutrition is much more than calorie counting, good land use should take into account more than just yield.

Upland hill farms in the UK, for example, produce good quality products in a sustainable way without using much water or energy.

Similarly, pasture can sustain herds of livestock with again minimal use of added water or energy.

I guess you could create more output calories of food per hectare with intensive crop production but experience suggests that much more water is required and the soil is quickly depleted rather than improved.

I have no involvement or investments in agriculture but I am very interested in both good nutrition and conservation.
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Post by uncadonego »

My hypothetical scenario feeds the whole world while at the same time recovering wild habitat the size of all North America and Brazil combined.

If all of the livestock that feeds people now were done open range, the 80% farm land usage we currently use for raising food animals would increase even more.

In fact, if the whole world ate the way Canada or the U.S. or European countries ate, we'd already be beyond capacity. We would need 138% of the earth's capacity to produce the food. Yeah, we'd need another planet.

And we are talking about climate change here, right?
One of the most frequently mentioned environmental costs of eating meat is the CO2 involved in producing it. Compared to fruit and vegetables, the amount of CO2 released by the production of meat is remarkably high.

According to Scientific American, producing half a pound (226g) of potatoes emits the same as driving a small car 0.17 miles (0.2km). Half a pound of beef emits as much as driving the same car 9.8 miles (12.7 km).

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/10/what-if-the-whole-world-went-vegetarian/

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Post by mobbor »

A couple of comments on some of the above.

The fact that the number of children allowed per family in China has been increased to 3, is a reason for hope. Allowing 2 children didn't work. Apparently, raising children in China is very expensive, and the middle class isn't interested. There is also a very uneven balance between the genders, due to preference for males, and this is also going to help.

Moving away from farm animal production, is not just important in terms to feeding the growing population, but also because farm animals produce a great deal of methane. However, in Australia, many farmers have introduced cattle feed that results in far less.
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Post by mobbor »

I believe individuals can, and are, making a difference. The Northern Rivers region of N.S.W. has the highest take-up of rooftop solar in Australia, and probably the world.

For the last 3 years, I have been carbon negative, in that I have sold back more electricity to the grid, than I have used. (However, because I still eat meat and and do not own an electric car, I'm still carbon positive overall.)

Unfortunately, far more electricity is now produced in the middle of the day than is required, and our antiquated distribution system can't cope with it, so the price for feeding back into the system has fallen drastically. There is talk that in 2024 or 25, we will actually have to pay...........In consequence, I am about to get another 7.4kws of solar panels and a battery.

We are also getting a community battery. I strongly believe all of regional and rural N.S.W. can become completely self-sufficient, and not have to be connected to any grid.
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Re: Man Made Climate change - is it fact or fiction?

Post by castores »

Man made obviously.

And forget about government leading the way. I agree with you mobbor, individuals can make a difference.

That aside I want to tell you about a deciduous tree in my front yard. It flowers late summer, absolutely massed in flowers. Last summer, zero flowers.

I have lived in the same area for all my life and I have noticed changes through that time.

Main thing, irrispective of who, what or why.... it's happening and we need to do something about it.

On a lesser note, yes it's our fault.
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