WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Others might have what you need -- be specific .. you never know what is out there! But be CERTAIN you have turned "ON" your email access in your account settings, or no-one will be able to contact you. You NEVER know what members of this board have for sale. Do ASK for what you are looking for!

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Damian
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WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Damian »

My name is Damian from Brisbane.

I now collect and concentrate on Australian First Day Covers from 1927, I have an almost complete collection.

I am still looking for 5 F.D.C.'s.

1. 21/11/1941, 1 1/2d Maroon King.
2. 10/12/1941, 3d Brown King.
3. 07/01/1942, 2 1/2d Red King.
4. 12/02/1942, 5 1/2d Blue Emu.
5. --/03/1942, 3 1/2d Blue King.

Reply to me via board email please
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by BigSaint »

damian wrote:My name is Damian from Brisbane.

I now collect and concentrate on Australian First Day Covers from 1927, I have an almost complete collection.

I am still looking for 5 F.D.C.'s.

1. 21/11/1941, 1 1/2d Maroon King.
Image
I could be wrong on this one, but do you have the correct date? The issue date I have is 20th April 1938.

2. 10/12/1941, 3d Brown King.
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I haven't seen too many of these around, but should be findable.

3. 07/01/1942, 2 1/2d Red King.
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Your date of issue here I do not believe is correct. I have seen one addressed to a well known collector dated 1st January 1942. To the best of my knowledge, no earlier date has been seen. The one I posted above says fdi in Sydney 14th January 1942. Status sold one recently dated 18th January 1942 claiming it to be fdi Sydney, sold for around $2500.

4. 12/02/1942, 5 1/2d Blue Emu.
Image
Sorry about the photocopy. This sold at Rod Perry's auction 15 years ago. But you could be in luck it is in either an upcoming auction at either Phoenix or Status. I am not happy with it. I don't understand how a cover from the Hunter Stamp Company in Newcastle can be postmarked with Geraldton postmark that did not exist until 8 years later. Caveat Emptor, especially at the price!

5. 25/03/1942, 3 1/2d Blue King.
Image
Again sorry about the photocopy, but this is the only one seen, also sold at Rod Perry's auction 15 years ago.

Reply to me via board email please
Good luck with your searching because in 30 years of looking this is the best I have been able to find.

Brad :)
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Damian »

Thank you for your reply,
I may never be able to complete my collection especially if these FDC are selling for thousands.
The 1 1/2 Maroon King you refer to is correct 20/4/1938 and is number 176 in the Seven Seas Australian Stamp Catalogue, This I have.
However the 1 1/2d Maroon King I need is number 185 FDI 21/11/1941. it is a new release and a change to layout of the King.
Recently I obtained number 222 Green Queen 1/12/1942.
Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Damian
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by BigSaint »

Damian,

Yes that Queen Mother is a hard one to find:
Image
You sound like you have a really good collection. Why don't you start a thread showing yours. I am sure Stampboarders would love to see them.

Brad :)
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Damian »

Hi Brad
I have now 18 First day cover albums, one is all the previous Australian stamps prior to 1927, The Kangaroo series, The King George V series all on covers, some are duplicates.
So you can see why I am looking for these 5 missing covers.
My wife says what will happen to my collection when I am gone.
I am the only one who occasionally looks at some of them.
Cheers.
Damian
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by BigSaint »

damian wrote: However the 1 1/2d Maroon King I need is number 185 FDI 21/11/1941. it is a new release and a change to layout of the King. Damian
Damian

I have asked the Australian King of fdcs about this one & his response was that he had never heard of it.

Regards

Brad

PS Don't forget to introduce yourself or the "MODS" will be after you. The link is below:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10277
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by BigSaint »

damian wrote:Hi Brad
My wife says what will happen to my collection when I am gone.

She will sell your collection & make big bucks!

I am the only one who occasionally looks at some of them.

All the more reason to share them with your Stampboard friends! :!:

Cheers.
Damian
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Damian »

Hi Brad
I am no expert on FDI's,
I only use the 25th edition by Seven Seas of the Australian Stamp Catalogue.
I see now it is confusing and maybe misleading.
It has No 185 as a 1 1/2 Maroon King, it also has it as number 25.(21/11/1941)
This is what I was looking for, however I may now delete my request for this.
It also has No 176 as a 1 1/2 Maroon King also as number 25 FDI 20/4/1938.
However now I look closely number 25 is illustrated as a 2d Red King Die 2.
I have this 2d Red King Die 1 dated 10/5/1937.
I am confused, it looks like your expert on FDI's is correct.
Thank you for your follow up and for your help.
What city do you live in?
Regards,
Damian
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by BigSaint »

BigSaint wrote:
damian wrote: However the 1½d Maroon King I need is number 185 FDI 21/11/1941. It is a new release and a change to layout of the King. Damian

Below is SG (Stanley Gibbons) 166 KGVI 1½d Maroon issued 20th April 1938, watermark 15, perf 13½ x 14:
Image
Below is SG 182 KGVI 1½d Maroon issued 21st November 1941, perf 15 x 14:
Image
It appears the difference between the two stamps are the perforations. Being wartime probably no one noticed & while new stamp issues would be advertised, a change of perfs would pass unannounced.

Brad :)

PS. A thank you to Iomoon from whom I borrowed these pictures.
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by BigSaint »

damian wrote:Hi Brad
I am no expert on FDI's,
I only use the 25th edition by Seven Seas of the Australian Stamp Catalogue.
I see now it is confusing and maybe misleading.

I have this 2d Red King Die I dated 10/5/1937.
Image
KGVI 2d red die I & QE 1d green die I issued for the Coronation on 10th May 1937.

However now I look closely number 25 is illustrated as a 2d Red King Die 2.
Image
KGVI 2d red die II & QE 1d green die II issued on 1st August 1938.


What city do you live in? Melbourne
Regards,
Damian
The difference between the die I & the die II is the background shading:
Image

Die I with pale shaded background


Image

Die II with solid shaded background
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by The Pom »

Damian wrote:My name is Damian from Brisbane.

I now collect and concentrate on Australian First Day Covers from 1927, I have an almost complete collection.
Hi Damian,
Always good to find another pre decimal FDC collector. I'm interested by your use of the phrase "Almost complete" for a period where new discoveries are still being made and there is no comprehensive catalogue published. I have about 2500 different 1927-65 and that's far from complete - the level of detail in this field, and the number of different makers means that a complete collection is virtually impossible. Below are a few FDC's from the 1946 Peace issue - there are more! (Not being critical of you, just seeking to clarify your definitions!).
Cheers
Chris
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Always on the lookout for Australian pre decimal First Day Covers.
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Damian »

Hi Chris
You sure do have a large collection.
I just wish you had some duplicates of some of the F.D.C. I am looking for.
I have 1 album of covers only of pre 1927, Kangaroo's and George 5.
I now have 17 albums of F.D.C. from 1927 to current.
I use the Seven Seas Catalogue of Australian First Day covers for my guide.
I am just trying to get 1 of each cover of each stamp of each date of F.D.I.
Since posting my wanted notice I have learned a lot.
Thank you for your reply posting.
Cheers,
Damian
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by BigSaint »

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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by The Pom »

MODERATOR COMMENT

Hi Damian,
I've just noticed that you've not made a post in the "New members" thread to introduce yourself, as requested in your joining email.
If you could do that, it would be very much appreciated, the thread is here: http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10277&start=14950

In the mean time, happy to help with any FDC stuff, though I'm afraid I don't have any of the covers you're after!
Cheers
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Damian »

I am not sure how to introduce myself. My name is Damian and I live in Brisbane.
I commenced collecting stamps in boarding school in 1950,
My first purchase of a F.D.I. was in 1955 and in the 1960's I commenced collecting each first day of issue regularly. I stopped for a while in the 1970's because of family commitments.
I recommenced in mid 1980's buying as many as possible of the ones missing.
My collection consist of 18 albums and I still need a few more pre-decimal.
I still have all my early collected stamps and have shoe boxes of used stamps.
My wife and I are both retired and like to travel.
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by BigSaint »

Damian

It occurred to me why you haven't posted any of your fdcs on this thread, perhaps you don't know how. Don't worry help is at hand,go to the link below:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=44032&p=3237494&hilit=photobucket#p3237494

Once you have registered with Photobucket & uploaded pictures to your "free" account you can then practice downloading them on the link below:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=284

When you have mastered it, you can then go live & post your fdcs here!

Brad :)
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by BigSaint »

Damian

I think I saw somewhere that you were having trouble trying to post a picture on stampboards. Below is a link to another thread that I think may assist you:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50768

Brad :)
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by BigSaint »

All Photobucket images have been upgraded

Brad :)

PS We haven't heard from the OP in sometime. I wonder how he is going with the pursuit of these elusive covers.
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by BigSaint »

I have not been successful in my search either. All I have found is a better photocopy of this one:
Image
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Global Admin »

Damian wrote:My name is Damian from Brisbane.

I now collect and concentrate on Australian First Day Covers from 1927, I have an almost complete collection.

I am still looking for 5 F.D.C.'s.

1. 21/11/1941, 1 1/2d Maroon King.
2. 10/12/1941, 3d Brown King.
3. 07/01/1942, 2 1/2d Red King.
4. 12/02/1942, 5 1/2d Blue Emu.
5. --/03/1942, 3 1/2d Blue King.

Reply to me via board email please
Damian - Sadly I can "only" help with the 3d Brown :lol: :lol: :lol:

Brad is correct, these changes of colour or perforation got near zero attention during WW2 when stamp collectors – then as now, being 99.99% males, were off overseas fighting for our freedom. The PO often made ZERO advance announcements they were being issued.
Image

Adding this to my Rarity Page this weekend, and it is the most gob smacking FDC!


Australia 1941 FDC seven DIFFERENT STAMPS on the One FDC! Pretty amazing. In 40 years of dealing have never seen another. On raised print crested envelope, and mailed REGISTERED from "Parliament House, New South Wales" with the very sought after Registration label of that House, and crystal clear December 10, 1941 date “tying" all 7 stamps and label. Has not only the 3 surcharge stamps rush-issued December 10 - themselves very scarce on FDC and cat $350, but ALSO all the 4 ‘new colours’ Definitives!

A ½d "WAR TAX" was decreed with almost no prior notice, to apply to all letter mail from December 10, 1941, and the 3 overprints were hastily rushed out as a emergency stop-gap to cover this sudden levy, as the new denomination stamps to cover the 4 most used rates, were of course not yet printed – or even started to print.

These stamps did NOT get the usual advance notice of issue in the “ASM” Monthly magazine, as they were true Emergency issues, and hence almost no-one knew they were about to be released, and hence their $600 type values apiece on FDC.

The most heavily used was the 2½d letter rate, which had new stamps rush printed starting December 12 for this new rate, but were not issued until January - one alleged “FDC” exists for that, bizarrely dated January 1, 1942, and Cat is $A7,500 for that one alone.

December 10, 1941 was NOT a great date to issue new Stamps! The Japanese bombed and decimated Pearl Harbor with no advance warning on Sunday December 7, Hawaii time, (Monday December 8, Australia time) and the United States Congress and President declared War on the Empire of Japan later that day. The United Kingdom also declared war on Japan the same day. Partially due to Japanese attacks on the British colonies of Malaya, Singapore, and Hong Kong, and partially due to Winston Churchill's promise to declare war "within the hour" of a Japanese attack on the United States.

WAR was formally declared here in Canberra at 11:15am December 9, Australian time, and was of course front pages of all newspapers December 10, the day all these stamps were issued! Following the USA Declaration Of War, Japan's allies, Germany and Italy, also declared war on the United States, bringing the United States fully into World War II.

TV did not exist of course, phone calls overseas were a rarity, so news was not 'instant' back then like now, and HEAVY Press and Media Censorship was of course in 100% full swing in late 1941, so all this it first hit the newspaper front pages on Wednesday December 10.

The same day these 7 stamps were issued, so clearly the last thing on anyone’s mind, was a change of colour on the existing postage stamps, when the Japs has bombed Hawaii and British Asia the day before! (242 Japanese aircraft bombed Darwin very soon afterwards of course.)

So we have all 4 of the Definitives here, that were all issued December 10 in these new color based on the new “War Tax” rates, and the new UPU regulations re stamp colours for different rates. The best-selling Seven Seas Stamps “ASC catalogue” of course lists FDC for these colour change stamps, all of which are rare even on SINGLE covers - at $600, $600, $550 and $500 respectively.

In 40 years of dealing I have only seen a few occasional examples of each FDC, and after 76 years, most of those were ratty and foxed etc. NONE were Registered or back-stamped, the only way to PROVE something was not back-stamped later on by a mate in a PO somewhere etc.

All stamps clean and fresh, and well centred, with full perfs, and the cover itself is also absolutely clean and flat pristine.

This cover with all 7 is almost certainly Unique. Have never seen another, even in auction catalogues. Condition is PRISTINE …. It looks like it was serviced last week, not 76 years back! The “PARLIAMENT HOUSE” clear cds of December 10, and the Registration label verify it beyond all doubt, and it is backstamped Sydney GPO also on December 10, and also has a superb crisp backstamp of Balgowlah (Sydney suburb) arrival of “7.30AM - 11 DE 41” as further proof.

This cover is simply as good as it gets .. better than it gets really. So as 5 separate covers, cat is $2,600, and these very scarce WW2 era FDC things in good shape gets near or full cat at all times. I could ask $2,750, and someone, somewhere, would buy it one day I feel sure. I'll try near HALF that, and it will sell for sure! (Stock 892LQ)
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Rod Perry »

Damian wrote:My name is Damian from Brisbane.

I now collect and concentrate on Australian First Day Covers from 1927, I have an almost complete collection.

I am still looking for 5 F.D.C.'s.

1. 21/11/1941, 1 1/2d Maroon King.
2. 10/12/1941, 3d Brown King.
3. 07/01/1942, 2 1/2d Red King.
4. 12/02/1942, 5 1/2d Blue Emu.
5. --/03/1942, 3 1/2d Blue King.

Reply to me via board email please
Three of these incredibly rare FDCs have been sold in the past few months, coincidentally. Here are some comments to add to the other good advice provided on this thread.

1. I don't know how this Nov 21 1941 date of issue for the perforation change was arrived at? I don't believe it's correct. ACSC states issued "November 1941". The earliest date I've recorded is Nov 30 1941. No Nov 21 1941 cover has been recorded.

2. Very elusive, but agree it can be found. The set of seven stamps issued Dec 10 1941, as in the example Glen has for sale, is the way to go. The very few I've seen have sold for $1000+.

3. Issue date is generally accepted as Jan 1 1942. One example recorded, addressed to K.N. Epstein, as is a contemporary FDC shown on this thread. Sold in the Sep 19 2017 Arthur Gray auction, for $8160. Price excludes add-ons, but included a Sydney FDC for Booklet pane of this issue (no slouch in value, either).

4. Arthur Gray "Emu" FDC, the Official cover illustrated above by Brad, sold for $9350 plus add-ons.

5. Issue date was Mar 25 1941. The unique example was sold Nov 3 2017 by Phoenix Auctions. It realized $4600 plus add-ons. This was one of the very few KGVI era FDCs that Arthur Gray did not own. Given it realized $4200 hammer in my April 1997 auction (Lot #369), 20 years ago, I conclude that this was a shrewd purchase by the buyer.

It will be noted, Damian, that you have a Philatelic Everest to climb.

I highly recommend you consider the advice on how to extend your collection, given by BigSaint (Brad) and The Pom.

FDC collecting can provide great pleasure without having to have those few "impossibles".

Rod
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Global Admin »

Rod Perry wrote:
3. Issue date is generally accepted as Jan 1 1942. One example recorded, addressed to K.N. Epstein, as is a contemporary FDC shown on this thread. Sold in the Sep 19 2017 Arthur Gray auction, for $8160. Price excludes add-ons, but included a Sydney FDC for Booklet pane of this issue (no slouch in value, either).
And we ALWAYS should included the pesky add-ons here Rod, as they add a VAST chunk to what is ACTUALLY paid by buyers.

This cover sold for by Spink £4,800 PLUS 5% Tax on that hammer price PLUS 24% Buyer fee (Taking invoice to about $A10,500 before our banks pillage using fake exchange rates) PLUS Spink's outrageous 4% fee to use a credit card to pay it all. So the $8160 FDC cost someone over $10,500 or some $A11,000 if someone here paid by credit card. On a $7500 full ACSC value cover.

Not being Registered, and being from an obscure PO, I certainly would not have paid even a fraction of that personally as I am unaware if Epstein was a collector with fantastic contacts, that the rest of the oz stamp world did not have!

I am sure had I traded from Castlecrag PO in 1942 a kind PM might have backdated his cds if asked sweetly ..... and we will never know re THORNBURY NORTH for goodness sakes. :lol: :lol:

Anyway if that got $10,500 my set of 7 on pristine Registered cover is looking even more attractive to me!
Image.
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Rod Perry »

Global Administrator wrote:
Rod Perry wrote:
3. Issue date is generally accepted as Jan 1 1942. One example recorded, addressed to K.N. Epstein, as is a contemporary FDC shown on this thread. Sold in the Sep 19 2017 Arthur Gray auction, for $8160. Price excludes add-ons, but included a Sydney FDC for Booklet pane of this issue (no slouch in value, either).
And we ALWAYS should included the pesky add-ons here Rod, as they add a VAST chunk to what is ACTUALLY paid by buyers.

This cover sold for by Spink £4,800 PLUS 5% Tax on that hammer price PLUS 24% Buyer fee (Taking invoice to about $A10,500 before our banks pillage using fake exchange rates) PLUS Spink's outrageous 4% fee to use a credit card to pay it all. So the $8160 FDC cost someone over $10,500 or some $A11,000 if someone here paid by credit card. On a $7500 full ACSC value cover.

Not being Registered, and being from an obscure PO, I certainly would not have paid even a fraction of that personally as I am unaware if Epstein was a collector with fantastic contacts, that the rest of the oz stamp world did not have!

I am sure had I traded from Castlecrag PO in 1942 a kind PM might have backdated his cds if asked sweetly ..... and we will never know re THORNBURY NORTH for goodness sakes. :lol: :lol:

Anyway if that got $10,500 my set of 7 on pristine Registered cover is looking even more attractive to me!
Image.
I understand your penchant for working through "add-ons", Glen.

Unless the auction house provides such information in Prices Realised (Spink generally don't), I use hammer price as a reasonably informative comment on where the action lay.

The Epstein cover above was a subject in my November 2017 Australasian Stamp News column, where I stated, in case readers would like to be more informed on this cover:

"Figure 6 (Lot #635) featured two rarities: FDC versions of the stamp featured under Figure 5. The "1942” 2½d, it is stated in ACSC was "First distributed from the Note printing Branch on 13 December 1941”. This lot featured what is purported to be the only known FDC for this stamp issue, dated Jan 1 1942, serviced at Thornbury North. Some readers may find it difficult to comprehend that there is just one purported example of an FDC for an Australian new issue, in the era when FDCs had become a popular pursuit. But, this is how it is. The aforementioned Parish [Hayward C Parish was amongst a tiny clique of informed and well connected Sydney FDC collectors], the record indicates, did not process FDCs for this stamp (he did for the 3½d denomination of this series – issued months later on March 25 1942 – but just one example of that FDC is thus far recorded. Footnote: announced the day I sent off this copy, Phoenix Auctions have that very cover coming up for auction – Nov 3 2017!)

So, returning to the regular stamp issue FDC in this lot, here is some of my input: (i) the gap between distribution (Dec 13 1941) and this purported FDC (Jan 1 1942) may be significant; (ii) that lengthy duration may have been skewed by Pearl Harbour the week prior to distribution: public focus naturally was directed elsewhere; (iii) the addressee, Keith Epstein, I knew, and he may have been influential at Thornbury North PO (the new year’s day date is not necessarily a problem – it was a Thursday, and Sub-POs – usually aligned to newsagencies – would have generally been open); (iv) I bought the Masonic Lodge Brisbane intact correspondence, 1930-1951, some 90,000 covers, Australia-wide correspondents. The material was filed in date of receipt order: earliest date of use for this stamp was Jan 3 1942 (a Saturday).

This is one of the most enigmatic FDCs of Australia. If a date prior to Jan 1 1942 is found, the Spink realization of $8160 (£4800) will wilt. However, the Thompson Booklet pane, extremely rare, is a significant contributor to the realization for this aggregate lot.

To conclude: there are ways to fortify the contention that this Epstein cover is a contender for the FDC for the regular stamp issue. However, divulging such forensics is beyond the scope of advice I generally offer in this column."


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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Global Admin »

Rod Perry wrote: Unless the auction house provides such information in Prices Realised (Spink generally don't), I use hammer price as a reasonably informative comment on where the action lay.
Virtually no-one shows invoice prices in Prices Realised - mossgreen 'sort of' do, but even that is wrong, as the GST on Buyer fee is not shown so all items you and I have ever bought off them cost me 2.5% more than they show on their PR list.

This is WHY pocket calculators were invented Rod, so that quoted sales prices MEAN something in print. They are VERY simple to use. As near every auction house on this planet uses different buyers fees and add ons and taxes.

Are you stating you quote $10,000 for an item sold at mossgreen as they almost get the invoice figure correct on their website, but you only quote $8500 from Spink for the identical item that was actually invoiced near the same just as their website is as always with Spink, pretty useless?

Makes zero sense for meaningful comparison to any reader as to WHAT each cost - especially if used side by side in the same article. Using an inconsistent ad hoc system like that actually is the opposite to being "informative" of course. Our friend Simon Dunkerley would be turning in his grave, given his obsession with accurate detail in written auction reports! :lol: :lol:

We sat down in New York at the Gray Kangaroo sale, and he with his actuary background computed that for magazine purchase reports we both agreed to quote the COST of any Gray item to be multiply the Hammer price by a set figure, to get to the EXACT cost to an Australian buyer on the sale of the sale. We both did, and to this day those figures are meaningful as a TRUE cost on the day, of the stamps. (Before shipping etc.)

His detailed report of that Gray sale is an object lesson on how quoting EXACT figures is meaningful and helpful and accurate -

https://www.glenstephens.com/sdpdf/'The%20Kangaroos'%20put%20 ... 20map!.pdf

https://www.glenstephens.com/simondunkerleytribute.html
Image
This is ACCURACY in reporting an auction result - even 10 years on.

I personally would not touch that 1942 cover at more than a fairly modest sum as it SMELLS of being a per favour backdate. To ME.

We know for a FACT masses of Wesley covers were backdated by Gower and his henchmen decades on, with the genuine PO cds. Any tiny Hillbilly PO like "THORNBURY NORTH"might have got up to any kind of funny business as a "favour" to a local mate.

The sum actually paid - about $10,500 (not your "$8,160"!) was absurd in my personal view, but it was not my cheque book. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by BigSaint »

Glen

I think you make some valid points about the validity or otherwise of the Epstein covers. I have had my 3d Brown for at least 20 years & the 2½d Scarlet I think was discovered about the same time. Questions have been asked like:

1. Epstein ran a business/lived in Flinders Street, why did he go to Thornbury North to have covers postmarked? It would have involved a train trip on the Thomastown line or a tram trip along High Street. There were many post offices closer including the GPO & De Graves Street (then called Commerce House), both a short walk.

2. Others claimed Epstein was overseas on war service at the time, how could these have been done if he was away. I have not found any evidence that he was away on war service but I am sure there are people far better with computers than I who could confirm.

3. It has been said the postmarks were back dated "per favour" but if that were the case he would surely have done more than one for each issue. G White was prolific with his covers in the early 1940's & there is nothing to suggest that his covers are anything but genuine.

I think the most reasonable explanation is that the postmaster/newsagent at Thornbury North was a friend or relative of Epstein. The fdcs were sent in the mail each time there was a new issue, hence no need for tram & train trips. It mattered not that Epstein may have been overseas on war service, the fdcs were sent anyway. It was like a standing order of sorts hence no need for per favour cancels.

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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Global Admin »

BigSaint wrote:
I think the most reasonable explanation is that the postmaster/newsagent at Thornbury North was a friend or relative of Epstein. The fdcs were sent in the mail each time there was a new issue, hence no need for tram & train trips. It mattered not that Epstein may have been overseas on war service, the fdcs were sent anyway. It was like a standing order of sorts hence no need for per favour cancels.
So little Hicksville, "Thornbury North" regularly had supplies of the new stamps before any of the huge PO's in the Melbourne or Sydney CBD etc received them? Got it. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'll check at Castlecrag on Monday, if he has his "Australia Legends 2018" stamp stock in yet. 8)

But one thing I can guarantee - if he does, I'll be creating REGISTERED covers. :mrgreen:

THEN backdating the cds is caught out EVERY time.
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Lakatoi 4 »

Rod Perry wrote:I bought the Masonic Lodge Brisbane intact correspondence, 1930-1951, some 90,000 covers, Australia-wide correspondents. The material was filed in date of receipt order.

Rod
Off topic but speaking of these, I have a sideline collection of hundreds of Queensland covers (mostly KGVI) from that time period with PO's in alphabetical order from Aramac to Yepoon. All were addressed to The Grand Secretary (Mr. L.P. Marks), United Grand Lodge of Queensland, so they must be from your bulk purchase.

These are probably the earliest and latest date usages I have (unfortunately I haven't found an FDC yet):

Image
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by BigSaint »

Glen

Thornbury North or "Little Hicksville" as you call it, is a suburb of Melbourne between Preston & Northcote about 8kms north of the Melbourne CBD.

Land to develop Preston was sold in the late 1830's & the first settlement here was in the early 1840's. Northcote & Thornbury were also settled in the 1840's & in the 1920's both were serviced by electric train & cable tram services. In fact Northcote was serviced by two rail lines the Thomastown Line & the Heidelberg line. This resulted in large population growth. In 1940 there was approximately 75,000 people living in the combined cities of Preston & Northcote.

Both Northcote & Preston had Aussie Rules teams in the VFA which had a big following especially in the early 1930's when Roy "Up There" Cazaly came to coach Preston. The then very successful VFL teams of Collingwood & Fitzroy were also not far away. John Wren had his Fitzroy pony race track at Thornbury (which was sold off for housing in 1946). All of these events regularly attracted good crowds.

The post offices, among many others in the area, opened at Northcote (1854), Preston (1856), Thornbury (1911) & Thornbury North (1936).

The Preston, Northcote & Thornbury area was a thriving metropolis not a sleepy hollow.

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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Global Admin »

Brad, how exciting - and Castlecrag is also 8Km from the GPO, and also had a PO in 1942.

I've yet to see any unique KGVI covers that bear that Castlecrag cds on FDC that not a living soul in the rest of the continent was able to source or get on FDC. Let's get real. Backdated "Mate's FDC" for sure. 8)

More than likely created in the same month of issue etc, little doubt, but a Hillbilly PO magically being open JANUARY 1 on a Gazetted Victorian Public Holiday - let's be serious. :mrgreen:

This backdated Epstein cover is WHERE the January 1 date note derives from in ACSC. No idea why Kellow or Gray ever fell for that. OR the uber genius who just paid $10,500 for it!

Why on EARTH would the "date of issue" of a new stamp be set for a NATIONAL Public Holiday, when Post Offices were closed - the idea is totally absurd. Victoria newspapers of the time clearly show January 1 WAS a official Public Holiday there -
Image
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/69573020#
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by BigSaint »

Glen

It was my understanding there were no official first days of issue for these stamps of early 1942. Paper was short due to wartime, 2d, 3d & 5d values were overprinted as 2½d, 3½d & 5½d on December 10, 1941 & there was a good stock of these. Postmasters were instructed not to use the new 2½d KGVI scarlet, 3½d KGVI bright blue & 5½d Emu until they had used up the stocks of the surcharged copies. Dates listed as fdi have come about by covers discovered which were earliest known usages. This is why I have not paid big $ for these fdcs as I fear someone will find an earlier dated one.

As for New Years Day, Brisbane didn't have a problem with these fdcs on January 1, 1943:
Image
Image
Addressed in the fine hand of fdc collector S W Sheard.
Nor was ANZAC day a problem in 1935 (I believe ANZAC has been a Public Holiday since 1927):
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
I have seen many covers over the years postmarked on Public Holidays. I do not know how they come about but they exist.

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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Global Admin »

Brad, Capital city GPO's processed mail 365 days a year basically. No big newsflash there. Most had drop boxes out front and mail dropped in there got that day's cancel.

April 25 was NOT a national Public Holiday until 1927 but for 1935 I recall there was some special arrangement?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzac_Day

In Australia at the 1921 State Premiers' Conference, it was decided that Anzac Day would be observed on 25 April each year. However, it was not observed uniformly in all the states.

During the 1920s, Anzac Day became established as a National Day of Commemoration for the 60,000 Australians and 18,000 New Zealanders who died during the war. The first year in which all the Australian states observed some form of public holiday together on Anzac Day was 1927. By the mid-1930s, all the rituals now associated with the day—dawn vigils, marches, memorial services, reunions, sly two-up games—became part of Australian Anzac Day culture. New Zealand commemorations also adopted many of these rituals, with the dawn service being introduced from Australia in 1939.[17]


WILCANNIA - are you serious?? Population 2 dogs and a goat. And Ernie Crome at Newtown could have, and probably did, asked for any date he wanted there. He created literally 1000s of philatelic pieces a year in that era. Think John Gower!
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Rod Perry »

Altogether aside from the merits or otherwise of the Gray Jan 1 1942 KGVI 2½d so-called FDC, I find it difficult to fathom why a date closer to distribution date of Dec 13 1941 for the stamp has not been found?

The Letter rate had increased from 2d to 2½d on Dec 10 1941; the increase provided a War tax.

The emergency Surcharge 2½d on 2d (issued Dec 10 1941) had only 32 million issued. This number would normally be exhausted reasonably quickly. The 1941/42 KGVI 2½d was issued to the tune of 2.49 billion (excluding Booklet stamps) in its eight years reign. Even the 2½d commems of 1945-47 had between 92-111 million issued.

Other than for the Gray cover, the earliest date for the stamp I've noted is Jan 3 1942.

Given Christmas occurred in the time frame to which we're referring, more 2½d's other than the Surcharge must surely have been issued to service seasonal demand?

I highly recommend that readers check dates on their KGVI 2½d covers; even clear dates on used stamps prior to Jan 1 1942 would be enlightening.

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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Rod Perry »

Lakatoi 4 wrote:
Rod Perry wrote:I bought the Masonic Lodge Brisbane intact correspondence, 1930-1951, some 90,000 covers, Australia-wide correspondents. The material was filed in date of receipt order.

Rod
Off topic but speaking of these, I have a sideline collection of hundreds of Queensland covers (mostly KGVI) from that time period with PO's in alphabetical order from Aramac to Yepoon. All were addressed to The Grand Secretary (Mr. L.P. Marks), United Grand Lodge of Queensland, so they must be from your bulk purchase.

These are probably the earliest and latest date usages I have (unfortunately I haven't found an FDC yet):

Image
Yes, Tony, from the Masonic Lodge Brisbane hoard.

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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Global Admin »

Rod Perry wrote:Altogether aside from the merits or otherwise of the Gray Jan 1 1942 KGVI 2½d so-called FDC, I find it difficult to fathom why a date closer to distribution date of Dec 13 1941 for the stamp has not been found?

The Letter rate had increased from 2d to 2½d on Dec 10 1941; the increase provided a War tax.

The emergency Surcharge 2½d on 2d (issued Dec 10 1941) had only 32 million issued. This number would normally be exhausted reasonably quickly. The 1941/42 KGVI 2½d was issued to the tune of 2.49 billion (excluding Booklet stamps) in its eight years reign. Even the 2½d commems of 1945-47 had between 92-111 million issued.

Other than for the Gray cover, the earliest date for the stamp I've noted is Jan 3 1942.

Given Christmas occurred in the time frame to which we're referring, more 2½d's other than the Surcharge must surely have been issued to service seasonal demand.

I highly recommend that readers check dates on their KGVI 2½d covers; even clear dates on used stamps prior to Jan 1 1942 would be enlightening.

Rod
Have to agree Rod

I feel sure that earlier dates are out there for the 2½d KGVI - sadly maybe only on loose stamps, but a ratty cover might be about that folks have paid no attention to - so far!

I quickly sold the 7 stamp REAL FDC above to a member here (not to the OP oddly!) but being Registered and double backstamped, he made a most savvy purchase in my view. 8) 8)

As I posted elsewhere I stumbled this year across an undoubted EKU Roo cover mailed some TWO MONTHS before the accepted first usage in SG and ACSC!
Global Administrator wrote:
I found this one below on cover this year cancelled two MONTHS earlier than ACSC recorded, so anything is possible for those with good eyesight! :mrgreen:
Image

Image
As I constantly type - "Knowledge Is Power". That phrase never goes out of fashion. A month back I saw this envelope in a large Public Auction, offered for an absolute song. CLEARLY illustrated. After parting with the cost of a pizza or 2, I listed if for sale on my Rarity Page for very many $100s the next week, and a large dealer bought it, who is now offering it for ten times what he paid me. WIN-WIN all round! (Except the first vendor!) :mrgreen: :lol:

Earliest known use - by TWO months!


I had noticed that this cover was very clearly cancelled “SHIP MAIL ROOM - 3.30P - 3 JUL 17 - MELBOURNE”. Fully TWO months earlier than any recorded use or date so far. :lol:

ACSC tells us that the earliest recorded date of this stamp is September 1917. So this 1917 2½d Third Watermark Kangaroo on Censored cover to Sweden, was used 2 MONTHS before this stamp had been recorded before! No-one else had noticed the clear cds dates. I’ve passed this on to Editors of SG and ACSC.

Back-stamped in Sweden “GOTEBORG, 21-9-17” as you can see in photo nearby. 10 weeks by sea was typical, so clearly the JULY cancel in Melbourne was accurate, and not a “date slug month error”, as might be suspected if just a cancel, on an off paper piece were all we were working on.

Totally commercial use.


Sent from a large Business house in Melbourne - a totally commercial double weight cover to Gothenburg Sweden. Most attractive and unusually clean after a Century, for something that went 10,000 miles by sea-mail. Bit of side edge wear, as it was double weight, clearly containing many sheets of contents.

A pair of 2½d Roos is most unusual, as the 5d Roo, or 5d KGV issued 1915 for this rate was the logical stamp to use on a double weight, double rate letter, as this was. Remember this higher 2½d rate applied only to NON Commonwealth countries, so near all 2½d covers seen are to USA.

ANY mail a Century back Oz-Sweden is VERY scarce, as both had tiny populations, and there was negligible migration in either direction to engender mail. DEFINITELY Third Watermark - seen clearly with torch backlight, and the perfs and colour of 2½d are distinctive on the earlier watermarks of course.

Earliest Known Usage ("EKU") has a strong following here. Arthur Gray’s defective 6d Blue Roo pair OFF cover “earliest known use” that I sold him 30 years back, was invoiced for $A450 at his Roo Auction (Lot 491) so this one on backstamped cover is a GEM, and the end owner got a very desirable piece. Well bought. 8)
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Rod Perry »

Yes, Glen, EKU's rule . . . until an earlier date emerges.

The philatelic equivalent of a rooster one day, feather duster the next?

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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by BigSaint »

Global Administrator wrote:
Damian wrote:My name is Damian from Brisbane.

I now collect and concentrate on Australian First Day Covers from 1927, I have an almost complete collection.

I am still looking for 5 F.D.C.'s.

1. 21/11/1941, 1 1/2d Maroon King.
2. 10/12/1941, 3d Brown King.
3. 07/01/1942, 2 1/2d Red King.
4. 12/02/1942, 5 1/2d Blue Emu.
5. --/03/1942, 3 1/2d Blue King.

Reply to me via board email please
Damian - Sadly I can "only" help with the 3d Brown :lol: :lol: :lol:

Brad is correct, these changes of colour or perforation got near zero attention during WW2 when stamp collectors – then as now, being 99.99% males, were off overseas fighting for our freedom. The PO often made ZERO advance announcements they were being issued.
Image

Adding this to my Rarity Page this weekend, and it is the most gob smacking FDC!


Australia 1941 FDC seven DIFFERENT STAMPS on the One FDC! Pretty amazing. In 40 years of dealing have never seen another. On raised print crested envelope, and mailed REGISTERED from "Parliament House, New South Wales" with the very sought after Registration label of that House, and crystal clear December 10, 1941 date “tying" all 7 stamps and label. Has not only the 3 surcharge stamps rush-issued December 10 - themselves very scarce on FDC and cat $350, but ALSO all the 4 ‘new colours’ Definitives!
Glen

I am sure I have one of these with the 7 values also addressed to G White but I can't find it at the moment, but I did find this one:
Image
Image
With "V for Victory" cachet a couple of days after Pearl Harbour no doubt someone was keen for an early victory.

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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Global Admin »

Brad .. really lovely condition on that one. Very nice cover. :)

Gary Watson popped in for a coffee this week, and saw the 7 stamps FDC sitting on my desk and was gobsmacked. He said in 40 years in the trade he could never recall seeing another, told me what he thought it would get in Auction.

When I told him it had already sold in hours, and what that sum was, he said I was crazy. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Glen
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by BigSaint »

BigSaint wrote:Damian,

Yes that Queen Mother is a hard one to find:
Image
You sound like you have a really good collection. Why don't you start a thread showing yours. I am sure Stampboarders would love to see them.

Brad :)
Someone told me there were a few more of these guys around than I thought. I found this in a lot I purchased recently from Mossgreen, it was tucked away in an album page that was stuck together:
Image

This card was done by prominent fdc collector, A J Shearsby of Yass.

Image
In case the hand writing is not clear:

"This new 1½d came as great surprise to me as I had not seen any notice the Press of a proposed new stamp. I would have missed it altogether but our local postmaster called & told me of it. Very good of him wasn't it? However I rushed off this fdc but regretted I had no Flannel Flowers with which to decorate it. What a decided improvement it is on that awful Die I green penny? I have not yet completed that block of four of the penny plum. It takes at least 9 weeks to black out the cobalt blue. Kind Regards A J Shearsby."

Seems like he was a VIP to receive a call from the Postmaster in relation to a new issue.

I am also not sure about the reference about the penny plum & the cobalt blue.

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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Rod Perry »

BigSaint wrote:
BigSaint wrote:Damian,

Yes that Queen Mother is a hard one to find:
Image
You sound like you have a really good collection. Why don't you start a thread showing yours. I am sure Stampboarders would love to see them.

Brad :)
Someone told me there were a few more of these guys around than I thought. I found this in a lot I purchased recently from Mossgreen, it was tucked away in an album page that was stuck together:
Image

This card was done by prominent fdc collector, A J Shearsby of Yass.

Image
In case the hand writing is not clear:

"This new 1½d came as great surprise to me as I had not seen any notice the Press of a proposed new stamp. I would have missed it altogether but our local postmaster called & told me of it. Very good of him wasn't it? However I rushed off this fdc but regretted I had no Flannel Flowers with which to decorate it. What a decided improvement it is on that awful Die I green penny? I have not yet completed that block of four of the penny plum. It takes at least 9 weeks to black out the cobalt blue. Kind Regards A J Shearsby."

Seems like he was a VIP to receive a call from the Postmaster in relation to a new issue.

I am also not sure about the reference about the penny plum & the cobalt blue.

Brad :)
That Shearsby cover, Brad, speaks spades about New issues in those several months after Pearl Harbor.

Publicising New issues was clearly not a Post Office priority at that time.

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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Global Admin »

Damian wrote:
I am still looking for 5 F.D.C.'s.

5. --/03/1942, 3 1/2d Blue King.

Reply to me via board email please
Did you secure the FDC below offered recently? That was the only chance you will ever have in your lifetime to own it I suspect.
Image
This 1942 3½ KGVI Hayward Parish uncacheted FDC was invoiced for $A5,350 at Phoenix in November 2017, just for the record. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:



Image
Do you have this? Only 2 known, it seems. Easily the Scarcest QE2 reign FDC from Australia I'd bet. ACSC Cat $4,000, Ex Arthur Gray and fine condition. Added it to stock for $1,750 (Stock 572TK) 8)

Hayward C. Parish as we know, created several covers in the 1940s and early 1950s, of which only 1 or 2 are recorded.

Parish and his good mate J. C. Thompson, created a few each of the rarest FDC of the 1940s and early 1950s, like the £1 Thin Paper Robes etc. At least 6 of those are recorded, with same Sydney GPO cds, all numbered on back, all un-cacheted and addressed, yet cat of that one is $7,500 each, and they sell for near that if offered.

Glen
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Rod Perry »

Damian wrote:Hi Chris
You sure do have a large collection.
I just wish you had some duplicates of some of the F.D.C. I am looking for.
I have 1 album of covers only of pre 1927, Kangaroo's and George 5.
I now have 17 albums of F.D.C. from 1927 to current.
I use the Seven Seas Catalogue of Australian First Day covers for my guide.
I am just trying to get 1 of each cover of each stamp of each date of F.D.I.
Since posting my wanted notice I have learned a lot.
Thank you for your reply posting.
Cheers,
Damian
Damian, I hope you have not headed for the hills following delivery of the above highly informed comments.

Upon re-reading your comments, I'm intrigued by your: "I have 1 album of covers only of pre 1927, Kangaroo's and George 5."

May we have details of those items contained in that volume? Are they what you perceive to be FDCs?

Incidentally, and this is generally broadcast, for some of the rarest FDCs of reign of KGVI, the "Parish" perforation and no watermark changes, contact me (and no, they are not the Gray examples).

Rod
Preserve DNA - retain covers intact. Scientists may be grateful!
Commercial covers represent “Stamps in Action”: Philately’s last Great Frontier
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The Pom
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by The Pom »

If you check Damian's profile:

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:19 am
Last visited: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:23 pm

His Stampboards career lasted 8 days, and was over 4 years ago, so he's unlikely to be reading any recent posts....
Always on the lookout for Australian pre decimal First Day Covers.
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Rod Perry
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Rod Perry »

The Pom wrote:If you check Damian's profile:

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:19 am
Last visited: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:23 pm

His Stampboards career lasted 8 days, and was over 4 years ago, so he's unlikely to be reading any recent posts....
Damian was not to be so much as a "nine day wonder".

Rod
Preserve DNA - retain covers intact. Scientists may be grateful!
Commercial covers represent “Stamps in Action”: Philately’s last Great Frontier
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by Global Admin »

Rod Perry wrote:
The Pom wrote:If you check Damian's profile:

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:19 am
Last visited: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:23 pm

His Stampboards career lasted 8 days, and was over 4 years ago, so he's unlikely to be reading any recent posts....
Damian was not to be so much as a "nine day wonder".

Rod
I bet he is still missing the key items. :lol: :lol:
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Re: WANTED - 5 different Australia FDC's from 1941 & 1942

Post by BigSaint »


I thought I should bring this over from another thread:
BigSaint wrote: 06 Oct 2022 10:31
And then along came Jones:
ImageImage
Found on eBay USA:
codger wrote: 30 Dec 2021 01:21 I have recently bought a mixed lot of covers from an ebay seller about six months ago.

The whole lot cost me about $51 and it was well worth it.

However included in the lot were the following two commercial covers. Sadly they are not in the best condition having been somewhat roughly opened on three sides and having some other small faults as well.

Interestingly though they both have the 2½d Red KGVI, both to the same address and both sent from Williamstown in Victoria, although they seem to have different handwriting from the addresser.

One of them is definitely sent on the 8th January 1942.

Image

However the other one appears to be just over a week earlier on what I think is the 30th December 1941 (which is a Tuesday).

Image

Image

This is two days before the purported first day of issue which is New Years Day 1942.

It is a terrible shame that Rod Perry is no longer with us to get his opinion.

Could this be a case of the postmaster at Williamstown issuing the stamp too early, or is the 1st January 1942 not the true first day of issue.

Either way, the covers have effectively cost me nothing and they are now part of my extensive cover collection and the earlier one has hopefully filled a gap that has been very problematic for me to fill.

Regards

Joe
BigSaint wrote: 30 Dec 2021 14:06 Joe

If I had been the buyer of the one at Spink, & then saw your cover, I think I would be feeling rather ill at the moment.

I recall Rod Perry saying he believed the earliest date this could be issued would be 19th December 1941.

Being wartime with paper shortages all postmasters were instructed not use the new KGVI 2½d scarlet stamp until their post office had sold out of the surcharged stamp:


Image
One might think the GPOs & other city post offices would sell out the quickest but they most likely would have had the largest stocks.

:D
Unfortunately Codger Joe hasn't had any involvement on the Board since January 2022, so we don't know whether he sold his golden find or kept it.

The question still remains, will someone find an earlier one :?: :D

https://stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=9260782&hilit=kgvi+scarlet#p9260782
Specialist Collector of World Horse Racing Covers, Melbourne Cup & Kentucky Derby, & JFK fdcs.
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