Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

General things you want to know. Stamps you can't identify. Catalogue values you need to establish. Advice on ANYTHING stamp related you want. SOMEONE might be able to help. You can post photos of the stamps right here to assist . NOTE: - We have a nearby Forum for basic questions from *NEW* collectors.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by The Pom »

Thanks Ross, much appreciated.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

2 1-2 roo 3wmk.jpg
Rear under filter
Rear under filter
Rear as per scan
Rear as per scan
This mint Roo 2 1/2d has a interesting back?
It is full gum, the question I have is it ACSC 11Cc offset :shock:

I havent seen an offset and I can only compare it to an Aniline

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by The Pom »

Scott Starling has one listed here:


https://www.scottstarling.com.au/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1599

A342a-800x800.jpg

My suspicion is that yours isn't the listed Offset. I think what has happened is that there was another stamp underneath yours, the gum on yours got slightly sticky in a humid environment and when the 2 stamps were peeled apart, a bit of the ink on the face of the stamp underneath stuck to the gum of your stamp.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Thanks Pom.

I just had a look at Starling's website and by luck he has another example- which he describes as offset
similar to mine !!( But with a thin)
There must be variations of the offset!

https://www.scottstarling.com.au/index.php?route=product/pro ... ct_id=3643

Starling offset
Starling offset

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by The Pom »

Proper offsets happen at the time of printing when slightly damp sheets are stacked on top of each other, causing the ink side one one sheet to transfer to the gum side of the sheet above it.

The result, as the ink is still wet, is always a slightly blurred transfer of the image to the back of the "recipient" stamp.

Any "sharp" offset, for me, has to be regarded as due to post-printing gum humidity transfer.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by The Pom »

This copy of position R44 with multiple varieties sold yesterday on ebay.

The varieties are:

1. Break in right frame opposite Cape York.

2. Tail and grass at right sliced off.

3. Two yellow spots west of Spencer's Gulf.

These flaws appear in various combinations on the different watermarks, but the only instance where all three appear is (in the ACSC) Third Watermark.

The seller didn't specify the watermark, but described it as being "Australia 1915 Kangaroo".

It's not clear in the scan, but to me it looks more like a First Watermark. However, the paper appears to lack the typical horizontal mesh of First Wmk. Any thoughts?

R44 Front
R44 Front
R44 Reverse
R44 Reverse
R44 Wmk
R44 Wmk
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Chris,

Looks to be 1st watermark. Both the crown & 'A' are broad. There are slight hints of a horizontal mesh but it's such a crappy scan.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Here is one I found interesting!!

Island of Eden :lol: Couldn't find it anywhere and just a one off :D

6d Roo 1st watermark
6d Roo 1st watermark
6d Island of Eden a.jpg

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Help verifying ACSC 7(1)e on Inverted Watermark paper.

Post by TonyL »

Hi I have the following Third watermark, 2d Grey Die I Watermark Inverted with what appears to be;
ACSC 7(1)e, White scratch from map to value tablet.

As you can see part of the "O" of "STOCK" in cancel is obscuring the variety.

My Questions;

Are there other markers that can be used to verifying the variety in question?

Is this a scarce occurrence to have this variety on Inverted watermark paper?

Any idea what Town or suburb this was posted from?

ACSC7a.jpg
ACSC7ax.jpg
ACSC7(1)ex.jpg

Look forward to your thoughts.

Regards,
Tony.

P.S. White marks on gum side are paper remanences not thins (To be soaked off tomorrow).
Last edited by Global Administrator on 01 Jul 2020 13:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Global Administrator »

.
In the correct position - why wouldn't it be the variety? :?: :?: :?:
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by TonyL »

Global Administrator wrote:
01 Jul 2020 01:45
.
In the correct position - why wouldn't it be the variety? :?: :?: :?:
Thanks Glen for the info. :lol: :lol:

Can anyone else shed some light on my other questions I had on this stamp. :D

Cheers,
Tony.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Global Administrator »

Clearly has LATE FEE - Stock Exchange Victoria duplex.

Do NOT start new threads on such basic things please when existing threads exist.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by TonyL »

Thanks will do. :oops:

Appreciate the extra info as well. :D

Tony.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

TonyL wrote:
01 Jul 2020 13:37

Appreciate the extra info as well. :D
Hi Tony
There were 10's of millions of these printed. The inverted watermark came from Cooke printing plates 1 & 2
roughly 12.250million stamps. The ACSC ratio from normal to inverted is 4:1 for this stamp.

Under my understanding 7(1)e has a CV $100 so inverted is $400. Your example is way off center with a
unattractive CDS and some bad perfs. I would estimate CV at 50% at $200 with a sell price of around $100-$120
at the very best.

All in my opinion :D

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by TonyL »

Thanks Pampstamps for your reply.

I was thinking the same amount, but must admit it was just a guess on my part. :lol: :lol:

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by langtounlad »

Pampstamp wrote:
01 Jul 2020 18:04
TonyL wrote:
01 Jul 2020 13:37

Appreciate the extra info as well. :D
Hi Tony
There were 10's of millions of these printed. The inverted watermark came from Cooke printing plates 1 & 2
roughly 12.250million stamps. The ACSC ratio from normal to inverted is 4:1 for this stamp.

Under my understanding 7(1)e has a CV $100 so inverted is $400. Your example is way off center with a
unattractive CDS and some bad perfs. I would estimate CV at 50% at $200 with a sell price of around $100-$120
at the very best.

All in my opinion :D
Pampstamp

Can you advise where you found the printing quantities. And which page of the ACSC has this 4:1 ratio you mention.

Regards
Frank

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

langtounlad wrote:
02 Jul 2020 09:24


Can you advise where you found the printing quantities. And which page of the ACSC has this 4:1 ratio you mention.

Regards
Frank
Frank
All on page 2/45-46 of the ACSC!!. :D

Total quantity 28,560,000 Die1 stamps in 7 printings (4,080,000) per print
Inverted came from Cooke plates 1&2 total 3 printings. x 4,080,000= 12,240,000

Ratio is:- 7A CV used normal $15 and 7Aa CV used inverted $60 = 4:1 :lol:

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Pampstamp wrote:
02 Jul 2020 10:23
Frank
All on page 2/45-46 of the ACSC!!. :D
Total quantity 28,560,000 Die1 stamps in 7 printings (4,080,000) per print
Inverted came from Cooke plates 1&2 total 3 printings. x 4,080,000= 12,240,000
Ratio is:- 7A CV used normal $15 and 7Aa CV used inverted $60 = 4:1 :lol:
Are you reading notation 2 correctly? Was it the entire printing or just a portion of it? The ACSC states "...derive from..." not '"...entirely of...".

Wasn't the intention of the government Printer to maintain the watermark in an upright position unless not practicable?
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by langtounlad »

Pampstamp wrote:
02 Jul 2020 10:23
langtounlad wrote:
02 Jul 2020 09:24


Can you advise where you found the printing quantities. And which page of the ACSC has this 4:1 ratio you mention.

Regards
Frank
Frank
All on page 2/45-46 of the ACSC!!. :D

Total quantity 28,560,000 Die1 stamps in 7 printings (4,080,000) per print
Inverted came from Cooke plates 1&2 total 3 printings. x 4,080,000= 12,240,000

Ratio is:- 7A CV used normal $15 and 7Aa CV used inverted $60 = 4:1 :lol:
Your logic is flawed. The 2d Die1 third watermark printings were from Plates 1/2 AND Plates 2/3. Therefore the total amount of Die 1 stamps is calculated from all 7 printings adjusted by deducting the number of Die 2A. This is clearly stated in ACSC. The possible number of inverted has little or no relationship to the number printed. It is entirely dependent on the number of misplaced sheets which is an unknown quantity. And we know that at least one sheet in the Plates 2/3 configuration was inverted so there must have been at least 120 inverted Die 1 from these printings. The footnote in ACSC is of course incorrect in stating that inverted watermark derive only from Plates 1/2.

With regard to your pricing model, the values in ACSC are based on past sales where possible and attempt thus to reflect market prices. Each category is priced separately and the value of inverted has absolutely no relationship to other values. There is no such thing as an ACSC ratio.

Therefore to price a fine used stamp of the type presented by TonyL one would add the value of an inverted to the the value of the variety to reach a possible value - in this case $120. But based on condition Tony's stamp would be lucky to fetch $50.

Regards
Frank

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

langtounlad wrote:
02 Jul 2020 09:24

And we know that at least one sheet in the Plates 2/3 configuration was inverted so there must have been at least 120 inverted Die 1 from these printings. The footnote in ACSC is of course incorrect in stating that inverted watermark derive only from Plates 1/2.

Therefore to price a fine used stamp of the type presented by TonyL one would add the value of an inverted to the the value of the variety to reach a possible value - in this case $120. But based on condition Tony's stamp would be lucky to fetch $50.

Regards
Frank
Really who would now that :roll: !!And as for the wrong footnote in the ACSC WOW big call!!

Your calculation is also wrong!! 7a inverted is $60 + 7(1)e flaw is $100 = $160 less your poor condition adjustment
to 40% of your CV is $64. I said $100-120 at best using 50% as CV discount and 50% as a selling price. If I used 40% it would be similar!!

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by TonyL »

Can I please get help with identifying whether this stamp is an Offset. :?

ACSC 35A First watermark Die II. Mint hinged.
ACSC35A.jpg
ACSC35A(x).jpg
ACSC35A(xx).jpg


Look forward to hearing from you.

TonyL.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Lesley »

Interesting 1/- Ist watermark.I have plated as 2R2. Have used the ACSC and Rod's 1/- research .

Noticed additional ? flaw , Small nick in top frame above the T in AUSTRALIA.

Does anyone else have the nick in the top frame on their copy of 2R2?

Image

Image


Thanks ,

Les

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by The Pom »

TonyL wrote:
04 Jul 2020 01:55
Can I please get help with identifying whether this stamp is an Offset. :?

ACSC 35A First watermark Die II. Mint hinged.


Image

Look forward to hearing from you.

TonyL.
Looks like very slightly aniline ink showing through the stamp to me. It certainly bears none of the hallmarks of an offset.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Global Administrator »

.
VERY common phenomenon in mint copies of the 2/- 1913.

I find them hard to sell - folks think it is toning or a defect etc.

The 1/- 1913 above has had the living daylights bleached out of it. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Any ideas on this one!!Badly centered - Its a 3rd watermark NOT listed in ACSC

Maybe a kissprint? :D or a double frame?
6d roo double frame.jpg
6d roo double frame1.jpg

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Pampstamp.

Does your stamp have another side? As we do on the Geo V thread it is recommended Stampboarders post a scan of the reverse.

The watermark can influence ink deposition. ...and in the case of the first 3 watermarks there are additional watermark features that might aid in plating or positioning a stamp.

Here's some light reading for you (courtesy of "The Fundamentals of Philately"). The reference to "slurred print" is important. If you are interested in the Roos you should probably understand the relief printing process. It'll help explain some of the mechanism creating flaws one sees;

--------------------------------------
1990 Fundamentals of Philately p165 174 parts -01 RE.jpg
Attachments
1990 Fundamentals of Philately p181-2 -01 parts.jpg
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Thanks so much for the detailed information- It sure explains why some of the flaws happen!!

It seems positioning of the stamp and watermark location are a major factor in these flaws!!

The stamp needs a bath, the back has paper remnants, but I haven't done so because it has a slight tear, so I have left it as is. :D ( If only it it was inverted!! :lol: )


6d roo double rear .jpg

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Pampstamps,

Good quality scan of the reverse. Thanks.

Is there a vertical marginal watermark line on the left side? Should be approximately one-half the width of the crown from the crown edge. I think I can see something but, unfortunately, the paper remnants obscure most of it.

The weak kiss-print would make it likely to be a left marginal unit.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Kainnikanada

Yes there is!! The vertical marginal under bright light appears Its on the frame!!
The paper remnants obscure most of it , but it is there.

Any premium on these?

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Pampstamp wrote:
05 Jul 2020 12:30
Any premium on these?
Pride of ownership? Negligible since the kiss-print is generally intermittent & quite weak although evident at the lower left corner where there is duplication of a portion of the two frame lines' intersection.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by TonyL »

Here is another that I need assistance with please.
ACSC 43a (Die II) Second watermark Inverted

The Kangaroo is showing through on to the back of the stamp in a very strange way :o any theories on how this could happen?

If you can also confirm if this is a 2nd or 3rd watermark. I have marked it down as 2nd in my records , but the more I stair at it the more it looks like a 3rd. Just not sure. :?
ACSC43a.jpg
ACSC43a-bk2.jpg
ACSC43a-bk3.jpg
Thanks,

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by david3461 »

Hi Les

I have two copies of 2R2 - 1/- kangaroo - and neither has the nick in the top frame you have outlined.

Cheers David

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

TonyL wrote:
05 Jul 2020 18:38


If you can also confirm if this is a 2nd or 3rd watermark. I have marked it down as 2nd in my records , but the more I stair at it the more it looks like a 3rd. Just not sure. :?



TonyL.
Tony
In my opinion its definitely second watermark :D
I have fliped it for convenience!!
5s rear1.jpg

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Whilst on my quest to find Die11a flaws among my 6d Roo's this pale face Roo caught my eye!!

I would have usually just skipped by it, but the Roo's leg also caught my eye :shock:

Could it be ACSC 19(2)d ? Its a 3rd watermark, and definitely Die11. Never seen one before.


6d roo leg3.jpg

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by TonyL »

Pampstamp wrote:
05 Jul 2020 20:26
TonyL wrote:
05 Jul 2020 18:38


If you can also confirm if this is a 2nd or 3rd watermark. I have marked it down as 2nd in my records , but the more I stair at it the more it looks like a 3rd. Just not sure. :?



TonyL.
Tony
In my opinion its definitely second watermark :D
I have fliped it for convenience!!

Image
Thanks Pampstamp for your answer. Much appreciated.

Can you tell what software you used?

Also have you got any thoughts on the image of the roo on the back of stamp?

Cheers,

TonyL.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

TonyL wrote:
06 Jul 2020 00:23


Can you tell what software you used?

Also have you got any thoughts on the image of the roo on the back of stamp?

Cheers,

TonyL.
Software is called retroReveal- based in US and free!! Works very well & Reveals ALL :D

I have seen that before on the Bi-Colour Roos only mostly the 5/.!!

My guess is that the plate used to imprint the Roo on the map was under greater pressure
than usual resulting in the rear transfer showing mostly after a bath.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

TonyL wrote:
05 Jul 2020 18:38
....If you can also confirm if this is a 2nd or 3rd watermark.... Just not sure.
Thanks,
TonyL.
TonL,

A clue to identifying these watermarks, although not conclusive, but still a tool is to look at the horizontal location. The 2nd watermark, known as the "Georgian", since it was designed for the wider Aussie Geo. V stamps, is not correctly spaced for the Roos. It tends to shift horizontally relative to the centre of the stamps as one move to the perimeter of the pane. Some stamps will show 2 halves of the watermark - the shift is that significant.

Below is a comparison of a 1st watermarked strip of Roos versus a 2nd. They both have the right side as a common point. Note the shift of the 'crown/A' in the 2nd, relative to the centering in each stamp, as one moves to the left.
..........
04Papersabcd3of10-01 -01.jpg
..........
Keep in mind, this is only one clue, in a collector's toolbox, to separating watermarks. Paper mesh, perforations etc. are a few to also employ to help identify which watermark you might have.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by The Pom »

Pampstamp wrote:
06 Jul 2020 00:52
TonyL wrote:
06 Jul 2020 00:23


Can you tell what software you used?

Software is called retroReveal- based in US and free!! Works very well & Reveals ALL :D

Just for clarity, retroreveal is an online facility, rather than downloadable software. Free & easy to use.

http://retroreveal.org/
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by TonyL »

Thankyou to all that responded to my 5/ queries.

The very best part of this stampboard global society on show...sharing the knowledge to allow those with less experience in the hobby to learn more. :D

Kind Regards,

TonyL.

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Kainnikanada
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Pampstamp wrote:
05 Jul 2020 21:03
Could it be ACSC 19(2)d ? Its a 3rd watermark, and definitely Die11. Never seen one before.
Image
..........
Can we see a scan of the back?
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Kainnikanada wrote:
06 Jul 2020 13:24
Pampstamp wrote:
05 Jul 2020 21:03
Could it be ACSC 19(2)d ? Its a 3rd watermark, and definitely Die11. Never seen one before.
Image
..........
Can we see a scan of the back?
The rear watermark did come to mind!! :roll:

ACSC 19(2)d has a CV of $2250!! To me it looks very much like the flaw!!

I have lined up the roos leg and face with the watermark using the exact distance from the perfs!!.
The break in the Roos leg is between the watermark lines and the face is right on :D

6d roo leg rear - Copy.jpg

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Pampstamp,

There are a couple of factors to consider. You've only looked at one. We need to first eliminate the possibility that there might be a vertical/horizontal watermark line present. Fortunately it isn't within approximately one-half the width of the crown so we can eliminate a marginal stamp from the left & right and top but not the bottom of a pane.

I flipped your stamp. Took it into "Retroreveal" for a better enhancement of the watermark. I then highlighted the watermark in Snagit. Finally I used Cronky's "StampCompare" to superimpose the face onto the reverse. I'll let you decide whether the watermark might influence the Roo's leg.

In my opinion it'a too difficult to judge but has potential. There's a lot going on near the leg. Holding it in front of a strong light source might provide another clue.
.........
006.0d Roo 2L17 -01 rev retroreveal.jpg
.........
006.0d Roo 2L17 -01 rev retrorevealANNOTATED.jpg
.........
2020-07-05_23-34-23.jpg
Looking for NSW cut-down relief date stamps, as seen in my avatar, to add to my collection.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Kainnikanada wrote:
06 Jul 2020 16:51

In my opinion it's too difficult to judge but has potential. There's a lot going on near the leg. Holding it in front of a strong light source might provide another clue.
Wow Kainnikanada

Amazing detective and analysis work !! Very impressive.Thanks!

Which leads me to believe even more, that its Kosher :D

I have held it in front of my very strong 5000lum light and whilst you are correct in saying its messy near the leg
the watermark is clear and in my opinion doesn't influence the flaw.

To put it all into perspective here is the blown up version again. And the listed ACSC pg 2/78
6d roo leg3.jpg
ACSC Kangaroos page 2/78
ACSC Kangaroos page 2/78

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by TonyL »

Has anyone seen this variety before and is it constant?

Can this be plated?

9d Violet SM watermark ACSC 28A

Bottom left stamp there is a flaw on the 'S" of "Australia" that is not listed.

There is also a heavy coastline on three of the four stamps along Queensland and NSW coasts.
ACSC28A(Blk4).jpg
ACSC28A(Blk4)x.jpg
ACSC28A(Blk4)xx.jpg
Look forward to your thoughts

TonyL.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by dj_claz »

Hi

I'm just going through a lovely pair of Imperial Albums with mint collection that I have just bought. This roo was amongst them. It is the 1923 W6 with a fairly striking slash from the top right corner, diagonally through the horizontal lines (and the roo by the looks) but doesn't seem to affect the value tablet.

I assume this isn't a constant flaw but my knowledge on roos is slim to say the least so I'm hoping someone would be able to clarify what has occurred here.

Thanks
IMG_8586.JPG

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by muttly2011 »

dj_claz,

The Australian Commonwealth Specialists' Catalogue (ACSC) for Kangaroos lists 'White hairline from value circle to map' in the same position as yours as ACSC 21(3)g Plate 3 Left pane position 54 (3L54).

2017 catalogue value for mint is $125.00.

There is no mention as to how the (presumed) scratch occurred.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by dj_claz »

Thanks Muttly for the prompt response - very useful!

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by langtounlad »

TonyL
Banwell & Parsons lists as 3R17.

Regards
Frank

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by TonyL »

langtounlad wrote:
09 Jul 2020 16:57
TonyL
Banwell & Parsons lists as 3R17.

Regards
Frank
Thanks Frank for the info. Much appreciated.

Kind Regards,

TonyL.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by TonyL »

Hi Need some help identifying this variety if that is what it is. Is it plateable?

10/ SPECIMEN SM watermark, ACSC 49xd - sub-type 2 (shaved "P")

There is less grass around the roos feet than normal, Must be in the middle of a draught. :lol:

ACSC49xdxx.jpg
ACSC49xd.jpg
ACSC49xd1.jpg
ACSC49xd1x.jpg
Look forward to read what you all think.

TonyL.

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