Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by The Pom »

I'd say position R56.

Colour flaw parallel with and to right of tail level with tip of tail.

Background behind tail sheared off down to right from root of tail.

Tail less curved than normal.

Credit:

https://www.premierpostal.com/cgi-bin/wsProd.sh/biimagemap.w ... efstatus=&
Always on the lookout for Australian pre decimal First Day Covers.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by TonyL »

The Pom wrote:
14 Jul 2020 00:59
I'd say position R56.

Colour flaw parallel with and to right of tail level with tip of tail.

Background behind tail sheared off down to right from root of tail.

Tail less curved than normal.

Credit:

https://www.premierpostal.com/cgi-bin/wsProd.sh/biimagemap.w ... efstatus=&
Thx The Pom, To tell the truth I did not notice the coloured spot until you mentioned it. :shock:

The lack of grass is nothing to get exited about then?

Thanks for sharing.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by The Pom »

The flaw finder notes the missing grass at right "Background behind tail sheared off down to right from root of tail" but makes no mention of the weak grass on the left side.
Always on the lookout for Australian pre decimal First Day Covers.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by TonyL »

Thx The Pom. As always very helpful. :D

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

The below Roo 9d CofA pair is listed in the ACSC as 29(4)hb being the Die11 substitution in pair with Die11b.

It has a CV of $500 as mint. It has NO CV for used?

The question that I have is why? Is it because of scarcity in used like the used monograms?
Or another reason altogether?
9d roo subst.jpg
9d roo substi 1.jpg

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Greg Ioannou »

Pamp, what a fabulous pair! Even an inverted number in the postmark.

Gibbons prices used pairs at about 60% of the value of mint pairs, which gives you a ballpark.

Now I have to go through my 9d roos to see if I have any pairs like that. I'm pretty sure I've never checked for them. So thanks for making me think of them.

Greg

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Thanks Greg

Gibbons used is not relevant in this example!!

I have been advised that indeed this combination USED is 20-30+ times scarcer than MINT!! 8-)
CV for mint is 29(4)hb is $500!! :D


This is why the ACSC doesn't price them used. It has no idea on quantity of the used survivors!!
ACSC Note 1 on page 2/107 "Very few such pieces have been identified thus far, although it is likely more
will be discovered in future"


The above is a Die11 (on the left with the ACSC flaw 4L10) in pair with a Die11b
How many INTACT genuine used would have survived?

You learn something everyday!!

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Greg Ioannou »

Pampstamp wrote:
15 Jul 2020 14:12
How many INTACT genuine used would have survived?

You learn something everyday!!
I don't know, but I'll be checking my used pairs this weekend. I likely won't be the only one.

Greg

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by josto »

Hi!

Just a question about this 1st wmk 9d violet kangaroo perforated small OS? The OS perforation looks quite ok, but the corner perfs. look a bit strange to me, do the experts think the perfortion is kosher or is it possibly reperforated? Any help would be great!

Greetings

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by The Pom »

I don't like those perfs either. They just seem a little too deep, and the trimmed tips at left aren't encouraging.
Always on the lookout for Australian pre decimal First Day Covers.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Has anyone else have a similar flaw?

Break in right OUTER frame opposite Sydney! NOT listed in ACSC :D

9d Roo CofA watermark
9d Roo CofA watermark
9d Roo SMW
9d Roo SMW

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

On looking through some old stock I came across this 5/- second watermark position L2 with break in upper right frame and break at coast near Sydney. I know this is a rare Australian stamp and more 2nd watermark panes were overprinted NWPI but just wondered how rare as an overprinted example.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Adding to the above I know there could be an absolute maximum of 80 examples if the sheets were divided equally between L and R panes but it is not known how the sheets were stored before overprinting. Just wondering if there are many out there.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by PhilipAdams »

Pampstamp wrote:
19 Jul 2020 22:12
Has anyone else have a similar flaw?

Break in right OUTER frame opposite Sydney! NOT listed in ACSC :D


Image

Image
A nice prominant flaw Pampstamp. It probably deservies ACSC status.

Banwell and Parsons identify the plate position as 3R42.

Their description of the break is:

"(a) Right frame: diagonal break, 8.25mm from lower frame".

They also identify a second marker, which is very evident on the second of your two stamps:

"(b) Shading east of Queensland: left half of one of the short lines is missing, 12.5mm from upper frame."

Philip

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Thanks Philip for the information :D

I will post the info to the thread for ACSC suggested updates and hopefully it will be looked at!!

Cheers

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by josto »

Hello,

Has anyone seen this flaw at the right frame on a 1st wmk 9d violet kangaroo? It looks like a slight doubling of the frame. I'm going with a transient flaw, but you never know!? Maybe someone has or at least has seen a similar flaw?

Thanks

Josto
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Has anyone else have a similar flaw? :shock:

Flaw of Albany WA and Bight! NOT listed in ACSC :D


9d Roo CoA watermark - Albany flaw
9d Roo CoA watermark - Albany flaw
9d Albany,Bightflaw1a.jpg
9d Roo CoA watermark - Albany flaw
9d Roo CoA watermark - Albany flaw
9d albany flaw2a.jpg

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Pampstamp,

Your flaws are listed in Banwell & Parsons as UCV H4(a) & (b) (from left to right) - unlocated constant variety from the Harrison plates.

I'll have to search my libarary since i have a notation in my Banwell & Parsons that someone mention this flaw in a BSAP article from 2012 existing in 3rd watermark.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Pampstamp,

No additional info in the article. R. Guy was just documenting the existence in 3rd watermark and adding this info to the original monograph.
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Kainnikanada wrote:
24 Jul 2020 03:10
Pampstamp,

No additional info in the article. R. Guy was just documenting the existence in 3rd watermark and adding this info to the original monograph.
Cheers Kainnikanada

Both mine are CofA watermark. If its found in the 3rd watermark I feel it must also exist in SMW.

I will copy onto the the ACSC consideration thread for them to look at. :D

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by david3461 »

Hi All

I recently acquired a small collection of 1d red kangaroo's and a number of them have been annotated on the reverse. If I could please ask for an explanation as to the meanings of those annotations! I have had a look at the 1d wiki and some of those numbers appear to refer to a position, but not as I understand at this stage.

Thanks for looking
AL1 and AL2.jpg
AL1 and AL2 reverse.jpg

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by rsellens »

david3461 wrote:
25 Jul 2020 00:14
Hi All

I recently acquired a small collection of 1d red kangaroo's and a number of them have been annotated on the reverse. If I could please ask for an explanation as to the meanings of those annotations! I have had a look at the 1d wiki and some of those numbers appear to refer to a position, but not as I understand at this stage.

Thanks for looking

ImageImage
AL1 refers to Plate A, Left pane, stamp 1. The 1 and the 2 after the stroke are probably a previous owner's notation that he has 2 different versions of this stamp. There may be 2 different flaws on AL1. AL1/1 has both and AL1/2 only has 1 of them.

There were 9 different plates designated from A to K.

If you go to the first page of the1d Kangaroo and Map wiki and scroll through the first 25 examples which are UCVs (Unlocated Constant Varieties) you will come to a good section which will explain all before starting off with a description of AL1.

I hope this helps you.

Ross

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by PhilipAdams »

David, thanks for posting.

Ross, I think you are almost right.

"A" refers to the plate conventionally labelled "A". There are nine plates - A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H and K.

Each plate has a left pane (10 rows of 6) and a right pane (10 rows of 6).

Almost certainly, David's AL1/1 refers to plate A, left pane, row 1 column 1. Hence, in terms of conventional labeling, stamp AL1.

Similarly AL1/2 refers to plate A, left pane, row 1 column 2. Hence stamp AL2.

The 1d stamp WIKI has a picture of the characteristic flaw on AL1 - a break in right frame and a break in the upper inner frame.
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=5537628#p5537628

You can see these on David's stamp.

There is no picture of AL2, but Adams, Bell and Pope describe a flaw on that stamp as "Shading below first A of AUSTRALIA: small break in line 3, 2.25 mm from left frame".

Philip

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by rsellens »

PhilipAdams wrote:
25 Jul 2020 07:26
David, thanks for posting.

Ross, I think you are almost right.

Philip

I agree with you.

I think my eyes need fixing. I thought I saw the break in the inner upper frame on AL1/2.

I don't think there is a clear break in the 3rd shading line below the first A of Australia that is definite enough to definitely assign it to AL1/2 (AL2) though.

Ross.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by david3461 »

Thanks Ross and Philip for following up on my enquiry. It is all much clearer and sensible now. I am used to working with later denominations where the plating seems to have changed to plate numbers rather than letters. Unfortunately, I do not have much back up documentation for the 1d red kangaroo and while I can produce positional numbers, actual descriptions are not readily available. Philip's descriptions in the wiki are an excellent guide...

So moving forward, and now working with the wiki I can see that AL1 has two flaws, the example shown has only (b) and I see that my stamp has (a) as well - albeit partially obscured by the cancel.

I have posted my scans for your perusal and possible use in the wiki to supplement what is already there.

Question? Is this the right forum to post these into or should I be posting into the wiki??

Thanks for all your help so far and please let me know if they are what is reqiured.

David

AL1_0001.jpg
AL1_0002.jpg
AL1_0003.jpg

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by PhilipAdams »

David, this is excellent. Thank you.

I would prefer that any contributions to the 1d WIKI be first posted here. I will then insert them into the WIKI wherever appropriate.

Hence https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=87758&p=5537628#p5537628

Philip

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by david3461 »

Thanks Philip for the heads up

This is the second stamp from my original post - not sure what to think?


AL2.jpg
AL2a.jpg
Cheers David

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by PhilipAdams »

Can't be too fussy in this game.

Hence, https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=87758&p=5537634#p5537634

Many thanks David, Philip

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by josto »

Hi!

I finally received this mint 9d kangaroo 1st wmk and now made a close scan of the flawed area. Has anyone seen such a doubling of the frame on a 9d roo before!? I`m still wondering, if it is constant in any kind or just transcient like some kind of a small kiss print!?

Thanks a lot

josto
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Australia 9d kangaroo flaw981_cr.jpg
Australia 9d kangaroo flaw981x.jpg

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Pampstamp »

Josto

I have seen similar but not as prevalent as your copy. Post a high res copy of the reverse.

Kainnikanada gives a very good explanation on how these occur,(pg 105 of this thread) usually a vertical marginal waterline on that area. :D
Kainnikanada wrote:
05 Jul 2020 03:31
Pampstamp.

Does your stamp have another side? As we do on the Geo V thread it is recommended Stampboarders post a scan of the reverse.

The watermark can influence ink deposition. ...and in the case of the first 3 watermarks there are additional watermark features that might aid in plating or positioning a stamp.

Here's some light reading for you (courtesy of "The Fundamentals of Philately"). The reference to "slurred print" is important. If you are interested in the Roos you should probably understand the relief printing process. It'll help explain some of the mechanism creating flaws one sees;

--------------------------------------
Image
Image

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by david3461 »

This one is listed as AL10

Not sure of the description, but to me it looks like;

"Small break in 2nd shade line below last A of AUSTRALIA"


AL10.jpg




AL10a.jpg

David

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by rsellens »

david3461 wrote:
26 Jul 2020 11:07
This one is listed as AL10

Not sure of the description, but to me it looks like;

"Small break in 2nd shade line below last A of AUSTRALIA 2mm from left frame."



Image






Image


David
David,

This is actually AL55: "Small break in 2nd shading line below last A of AUSTRALIA"

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=5710408#p5710408

Ross

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by PhilipAdams »

David and Ross,

To my knowledge no constant flaws have been plated to AL10, so I'm glad that the very-observant Ross has clarified the situation.

In the 1d WIKI, I have inserted a picture of the AL55 variety supplied by David Adams. I will add to that picture David's stamp.

Hence, https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=87758&p=5710408#p5710408

Philip

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Post by david3461 »

Thanks guys - more later

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by david3461 »

Hi

I am looking to confirm this one is AR3 ??

"Small break in 2nd shade line (....) below last A of AUSTRALIA"

Thanks for looking
David

AR3.jpg
AR3a.jpg

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Can anyone help me with plating this pair of OS 1d's used in Madang. Nick in top left corner of right stamp but scans below.....
img20200726_15545145 (2).jpg
img20200726_15545145 (2).jpg
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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by PhilipAdams »

david3461 wrote:
30 Jul 2020 20:40
Hi

I am looking to confirm this one is AR3 ??

"Small break in 2nd shade line (....) below last A of AUSTRALIA"

Thanks for looking
David


Image


Image
David,

I think the stamp to which you refer is AR13 (the first stamp on the third row of the right pane).

Both Adams, Bell and Pope and Sluman list it as follows:

"Shading below last A of AUSTRALIA: small break in line 2, 1.25mm from right frame."

The "break" you show is in exactly the right place, but the break itself is not clean. I'll give it a 80 per cent chance of being an early state of AR13.

Philip

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by PhilipAdams »

Derbyboi2 wrote:
30 Jul 2020 22:13
Can anyone help me with plating this pair of OS 1d's used in Madang. Nick in top left corner of right stamp but scans below.....ImageImage
Image
Derbyboi2,

Welcome to the 1d gravy train!

That rounded top left corner with notch is a characteristic found on a couple of plate K positions, notably KR42 and KR59.

According to Adams, Bell and Pope, KR59 has a couple of secondary markers. They are not present on your stamp. KR58 has a constant variety too that is not present on your left hand stamp.

Most likely your right hand stamp is KR42. If so, then there should be a watermark line running down its right side (as seen from the front).

Philip

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by Derbyboi2 »

Thanks Philip

No watermark line to be seen. I have just noticed that there is a pencil marking 53 on the reverse of the right hand unit, looking from the front, although as it is a WW1 New Guinea provisional I wouldn't necessarily put much store by that marking. It came from an old NWPI postmark collection, probably there well prior to modern plating studies. Given the slightly late date of usage I would hazard that it came from a Lutheran Mission cover. Usage of the provisionals in Madang continued well after that in Rabaul. The use of un-overprinted Australian stamps perfinned OS was officially discontinued in April 1916 although there are examples from 1917 bearing both Madang and Manus cancels. Those found on 'Davies' covers are purely philatelic and manufactured in the UK, sent to New Guinea with the adhesives already attached, and then returned with an outlying post office cancel.

Robert

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by PhilipAdams »

Robert,

Annoying about the watermark, but your thoughts on usage are far more interesting anyway.

Thanks,

Philip

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by david3461 »

Thanks Philip

I think I might have this one worked out

AR36

I thought I would post it up, as the break in right frame is different to the one in the wiki. It might be useful to show the variations that can occur with some flaws.

Also, it looks like the colored flaw between lines 4 and 5 left of the flaw below the O of POSTAGE may also be constant??

Cheers
David

AR36.jpg
AR36a.jpg
AR36b.jpg

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by PhilipAdams »

David,

Jealous of your Plate A collection - more complete than mine.

Yours is the third example of AR36 that I've seen. The colour flaw you identify is not on the other two, so we'll call that, for the moment, transitory.

Have added your image to the WIKI. Hence,

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=87758&p=5718503#p5718503

Philip

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by rsellens »

AL23.jpg
AL23A.jpg
Philip

This appears to be AL23

Small notch on the inside of the left frame level with the foot of A, 2.75mm from the top frame.

The example shown in the wiki is actually BL50 with a colour dot in the break.

Ross

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by PhilipAdams »

Ross

Sadly, it would appear that neither your stamp or my WIKI stamp purporting to be AL23 are truly AL23.

I strongly suggest that both stamps are BL50. The key is the secondary marker noted by Adams, Bell and Pope that is present on both our stamps - "S of AUSTRALIA: break in top outline, 5.5mm from left frame."

Philip

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by rsellens »

Philip

Mea culpa. I was so convinced it was AL23 I didn't check the S. I didn't even think to because it was only on the inside of the frame as shown in the flaw guide. Live and learn.

Ross.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by PhilipAdams »


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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by rsellens »

Perhaps you could add these 2 examples to the BL50 wiki to show the variabilty (?states) of this flaw.

Ross

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by rsellens »

Lets see if I can get this one right.

AR11
AR11.jpg
AR11A.jpg

Shading below AU of AUSTRALIA: fine scratch starting at line 2, 3.5 mm from left frame, joining coast at right end of line 2 below Cape Leveque. It emerges from the South Australian Coast at junction of line 6 down in Bight and ends at 12 o'clock on the value circle.

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by PhilipAdams »

Ross,

A nice example. WIKI changed accordingly.

Hence, https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=87758&p=5711791#p5711791

Philip

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Re: Flaws on Aust Kangaroo stamps? Help from the experts please!

Post by PhilipAdams »

rsellens wrote:
02 Aug 2020 13:02
Perhaps you could add these 2 examples to the BL50 wiki to show the variabilty (?states) of this flaw.

Ross
Good idea Ross, glad I thought of it!

Hence, https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=87758&p=6039956#p6039956

Philip

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