Help with ID of these Australia private company perfin stamps?

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Whoops I see I indicated HL on stamp descriptor.... I meant IH for course.

Thanks John (1) for ID of this one.

John (2)

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

John and John,

Thank you both again.
mobbor

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Some from me and a few needs for John 1.



1. RC company? MA.1 company?
Perf SB1.png








2. RA confusing me, which is correct?

perf Sb 2.png

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Further to johnrcrow's information,

R/C is RC.4, used 1910-1914, rated Rare. It probably is one of the R[&]C[o] family of patterns, of which only one has been positively identified so far - to Rolfe & Co Ltd, 483-489 Bourke street, Melbourne, tea merchants.

Without measuring it, I think RA is RA.13, used 1907-1916, rated Rare, whose probable user is Richard Allen & Son, 164-166 Flinders Lane, Melbourne, clothing, carpets and manchester.

H_s

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Many thanks H-s for your reply.

What is the problem in identifying the source of the RC perfins?

John

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Hi John,

It just means that a proving item has not yet been seen/reported for a particular pattern. If there is a unique combination of letters/symbols in the pattern, and there is only one firm with those initials in the directory of the period, then a "provisional" identity can be assigned to it (in italics in the listing).

In the case of R[&]C[O], there were several matching "possibilities" in the directory. If you look at Appendix 1 (Possible User Identities) in the Handbook, pages 13-27, you will see lists of such possibilities. These enable an identity to be assigned even if only a fragment of a cover is found but showing a few letters of the name or address, and this has already happened in several cases. On page 24, there are 5 companies listed as possibilities for R[&]C[O].

H_s

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks again H-s. Good to have the master on SB.

A lesson on reading Appendices and their useful information.

Interesting this perfin field.

John

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

Five more:-

1. McP. I have many of these so please let me know if there's more than one type.

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2. NG.

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3. PT Co.

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4. RH

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5. GRW

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Good morning, mobbor.

Your latest 5:

MCP.1, used 1911-1937, rated "Common", McPhie & Co., Margaret St., Toowoomba Qld, stock & station agents.

NG.1, used 1915-1920, rated "Uncommon", user not known (but possibly N. Guthridge Ltd., machinery merchants, 350 George St., Sydney).

PTCO.1, used 1919-1922, rated "Common", Perpetual Trustee Co., 2-6 Spring St., Sydney, trustees/executors.

RH.1, used 1916-1945, rated "Uncommon", Raine & Horne, Sydney, real estate agents & auctioneers.

GRW.1, used 1896-1942, rated "Very common", G. & R. Wills & Co., North Terrace, Adelaide, warehousemen (softgoods and fancy goods).

H_s

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

5 more-

1. TBS

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2. ACo

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3. DC&Co

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4. PB Ltd

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5. R&S 1d

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Greetings, mobbor.

From the top,...

TBS.2, 1908-1956, rated "Very common", Thomas Brown & Sons, Eagle Street, Brisbane, general merchants.

ACO.2, 1899-1966, rated "Common", Alliance Assurance Co. Ltd., 97 Pitt Street, Sydney.

DC&CO.1, 1908-1941, rated "Very common", David Cohen & Co, Newcastle, NSW, merchants. They had a previous perforator (round-topped ampersand), destroyed in a fire early 1908.

PBLTD.1, 1913-1925, rated "Uncommon", Pike Brothers Ltd., 85-91 Queen Street, Brisbane, clothiers, boot & shoe dealers.

RôSLD.1, 1913-1923, rated "Common", Reckitts O'sea Ltd., Bourke Street, Redfern (Sydney), makers of starch, soap, etc. The perfin pattern had originally read "R&SLD" but was changed in 1913 by removing one pin from the ampersand when the company changed its name from Reckitts & Sons Ltd.

H_s

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

Thank you again, John.

What's the best way to organise them in a collection? Alphabetical order?
mobbor

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Hi mobbor,

There is not a single answer to your question! If you asked 5 perfin collectors, you might get 5 different answers.

However, most collectors would probably arrange their collection alphabetically, since that is the way a catalogue is arranged. Some may arrange them according to the occupation/business of the perfin user, especially if they are planning to make a display, etc. Some may arrange them by stamp issue.

Then there is the question of whether to show them face up or face down. Most perfin collectors probably show them face down (on the thought that the paper is only there to keep the holes apart!), but what if the stamp was a 2 pound Roo or 5/- Sydney Harbour Bridge?

So, it is a bit like poker - "dealer's choice"?

H_s

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

Thanks John. That makes sense. I think they have to be face down, as it's very difficult to read most of them the other way around.

My dilemma is dates and plate flaws. I probably have many hundreds scattered around as plate flaws. They'll take a long time to find, and I guess I will then check in case any of them are scarce.

At the last Brisbane Stamp and Coin Show I did see a £2 roo with inverted watermark and VG (public not private) neither of which had ever been recorded before!
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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Maybe scan the stamp from back on black background to enhance perfin definition.

Display with actual stamp front and image of perfin at its side.


xxx.png



This way you can edit features of the stamp as well as visualise the perfin.

Needs effort to prepare ´specialist`pages either by printing perfins associated with stamps and then adding mounted stamps, or preparing perfin prints on photo paper and cutting them out to match mounted stamps by ´sticking`them at their side or putting them also in mounts.


details .png

John

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

I guess that would solve the problem. Thanks.

5 more-

1. GM&S

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2. RI& COLtd

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3.SC&S

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4. DC

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5. VOCo

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Greetings, mobbor.

From the top:

GM&S.1, used 1912-1915, rated "Scarce", user G. Mowling & Sons, Yarra Bank, Footscray (Vic), soap, oil and candle works.

RICOLD.1, 1912-c1966?, "Very common", Royal Insurance Company (Queensland branch).

SC&S.6, 1912-1914, "Scarce", probable user S. Cohen [&] sons [& Co], 380 Lonsdale Street, Melbourne, hardware merchants.

DC - this is a new one, will be DC.8., usage range approx. 1916-1919, rated "Rare", no known user for any of this "DC" group yet.

VOCO.7, the fragment of a postmark looks like [QUEENSLA]ND, used 1908-1917, rated "Common", Vacuum Oil Co.

H_s

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

Well done for the new one DC.8!

Maybe others in SB have new ones lurking?

John providing his great ´service` to all.

John

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

It looks like even you learnt something here, which is great.

There's a problem with the dates for GM&S.1. It's a 1d CofA watermark, so no earlier than Oct. 1931.

I agree with Qld for VOCO.7
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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

There are 25 listed GM&S in John´s handbook.

To me this looks like GM&S.25 (rare) from position of the tall ´M` over the `S` and taller ´&` as compared to GM&S.1.

No dates on the .25 though.

I await correction of course.

John 2

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Oops! I missed the "blind" holes in the ampersand.

But it is GM&S.4 rather than GM&S.25. The 'G' of the latter is quite different.
Date range for GM&S.4 is 1901-1938, which is consistent with your date of issue information.
It is rated "Common".

H-s

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by johnrcrow »

We got there in the end.

Dates OK for the .4 for mobbor now.

John 2

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

RH.1, used 1916-1945, rated "Uncommon", Raine & Horne, Sydney, real estate agents & auctioneers.

Funny thing happened this morning when I was letterboxing for a real estate agent. I saw a house for sale by Raine and Horne, so the company has been operating for more than a century.
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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

5 more-

1. FG&Co. I think this is different from your avatar.

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2.CMF

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3. WC poor copy.

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4. FC

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5. JS&S

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Greetings, mobbor

From the top:

FG&CO.3, 1893-1924, Very Common, Feldheim & Gotthelf Ltd., cnr Barrack and Clarence Sts., Sydney, hardware merchants.

CMF.4, 1928-1945, Uncommon, Colonial Mutual Fire Insurance Co. Ltd., 57-59 Market St. and 405-407 Collins St., Melbourne.

WC.7, 1913-1963, Common, WInchcombe, Carson Ltd.,113 Eagle St., Brisbane, & Sydney, Stock & station agents.

FG.5, 1913-1935, Farmers' and Graziers' Co-op Agency, Circular Quay, Sydney, Stock station & produce agents.

JS&S.10, only recorded postmark date is 1912 but yours must be 1913 or later, Rare, probable user is James Spicer & Sons, 377-381 Lonsdale St., Melbourne, paper merchants & stationers.

H_s

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

HAPPY_stamps wrote:
24 Sep 2020 14:42

JS&S.10, only recorded postmark date is 1912 but yours must be 1913 or later, Rare, probable user is James Spicer & Sons, 377-381 Lonsdale St., Melbourne, paper merchants & stationers.

The cds is December 1915. Strange someone very large like Spicers did not use a lot of perfins?
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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Howdy, Sheriff!

Thanks for the postmark date interpretation - I had not got around to have a closer look at the year on a bigger screen. I think the month might be JE, though, rather than DE.

James Spicer apparently did not have their own perforator - all their perfins are ones done by the perforating service in Melbourne. Currently there are 27 different JS&S patterns known with some confirming Spicer as the user, and 8 JSS patterns a couple of which are known to be used by Spicer. Altogether, these patterns range from 1900 to 1924. Although they must have used many such perfinned stamps, the different patterns would have come from separate batches of perforating over that 25 year period and survivors of each individual batch would usully be "Rare" or "scarce".

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

P.S. for "usully", read "usually".. :-)

H_s

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

I think I've finished at least one copy of all the different ones in my current lot, but I guess I'd better finish them before I look elsewhere. Below are 6 Edwards, Dunlop & Co, Ltd. I just hope they're not all the same:-

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2.

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3.

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4.

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5.

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6.

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Hi mobbor,

Your 1, 2 and 3 are the same - ED&CO.2, (1921-1937), Very common. Distinct features are the distorted bottom of the ampersand, the uneven spacing at the bottom of the 'C', and the hole between the 'E' and 'D'.

Your 4, 5 and 6 are the same - ED&CO.1, (1901-1927), Very common. Distinct features are the rounded lower left side of the ampersand, and no hole between the 'E' and 'D'.

H_s

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

.
Any guesses at this one?

On a pretty scarce stamp, the 2/- Second Watermark, SG 29.

Has a PERTH parcel cancel it looks like that may be a clue?

Glen





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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Howdy, Sheriff,

This is F&G.1, used 1911-1954, rated Common. User Foy & Gibson (WA) Ltd., 775 Hay Street, Perth. A 4-die (2x2) perforator. Also known on WA Railways Parcel stamps.

H_s

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

.
Ha .... many thanks - thought that was another letter in the centre .. thought they were only a NSW store, but not so it seems after a bit of research! :lol:

Bet it is the only perfin recorded on an SG 27. :)



Foy and Gibson Perth Department Store
Foy and Gibson Perth Department Store
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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

These are the last of my Edwards Dunlop & Co. Unless there are more than 2 types, I guess they are all 2. I've only scanned the backs:-

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6.

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7.

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8.

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Hi Glen,

"Ha .... many thanks - thought that was another letter in the centre .. thought they were only a NSW store,
but not so it seems after a bit of research! "

F&G had a big store in Adelaide with a facade very similar to the one in Perth. There was also a big store in Melbourne.

H_s

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Hi mobbor,

Yes, these are all ED&CO.2. Whoever did the perforating was not very careful in positioning the stamps!

H_s

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

Sorry to be boring!
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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

The remainder of my Lassetter & Co. They all look the same to me.

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7.

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Good morning, mobbor (and all).

These are all LS.2. LS.1 (which has only 9 holes in the 'S') was used up to 1902, and replaced in 1903 by LS.2. LS.2 was a 12-die perforator (2 rows of 6).

H_s

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

I don't think I've posted any of these before. Presumably they're not the same as Elders, Smith & Co. Ltd. The only difference I can see is that some have larger holes. Lots of blind perfs:-

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6.

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7.

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8.

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Hi mobbor,

These are all ES.1 (1922-1949), Very common, Elder Smith's Adelaide office. Your examples 1 and 2 have no missing pins, whereas the others have the same missing pins. Your knowledge of dates of issue and/or postmarks might be able to tell when the pins dropped out.

This die was a modification of ES&COLTD.1, (1901-1920), with the second and third rows of letters removed completely, probably because the full die took out too much of the stamp design.

H_s

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

Thanks John.

Most of them have an Adelaide postmark.

Not much help with the dates. 1. is probably Apr.1929. None of the others have dates, but were all probably 1917.
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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Hi mobbor,

Thanks for your reply.
Adelaide postmarks would be expected (and possibly the occasional SA country town). Your 1929 for item #1 is consistent with the known use range. However the letters "ES" were still part of the ES&COLTD.1 die until 1920 or 1921, so if your "1917" for the others is based on the issue date of the stamps, they must have been used quite a while after the first issue date.

Cheers,

H_s

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

Oops! 1917 should have been 1927.
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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

A new one: PAC. All 1d green CofA wmk, so not before Oct. 1931-

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10.

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mobbor

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HAPPY_stamps
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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Good morning, mobbor.

These are all PAC.1, used 1933-1967, rated "Common"; user Prudential Assurance Co., 39-49 Martin Place, Sydney.

There are parts of second strikes on your images #2, 3, and 6.

H_s

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

5 more. Apart from the 1st one I wouldn't have a clue as to what they are- too many blind perfs? They're all 1d green CofA wmk. The 1st was located in Melbourne:-

1. GM&S?

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2.

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3.

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4.

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5.

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Hi mobbor,

Re your latest...

#1 GM&S.4, 1901-1938, rated Common; user G. Mowling & Son, Footscray VIC, soap, oil, and candle works.

#2 VB.2 (double strike - see image), used about 1930, rated Scarce; user unknown.
V_2.jpg
#3 F.1 Farmer & Co., Sydney (details as previously).

#4 I am not sure what this is. Looks like a football team tap dancing in their boots :lol: . However, I can see a group of holes which are repeated indicating a multipole strike. My best is 3 strikes of a very degraded F.1 or F.2 (late 1930s??)

#5 F.1

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by mobbor »

8 more Angus and Robertson. I hope they're not all the same:-

1.

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2.

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3.

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4.

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5.

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6.

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7.

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8. Apologies for not soaking this.

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Re: Help with ID of these Australia private perfin stamps

Post by HAPPY_stamps »

Hi mobbor,

Your 1-5 and 8 are all the same; 6 and 7 are the same as each other, but very slightly narrower than the others according to my ruler on the screen image! Do you have any date information on these eight examples?

The perforator is known to have had thee dies.

H_s

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