Does anyone know who coined the term 'Cinderella' stamps?

[FRV]

Does anyone know who coined the term 'cinderella'?

To me it sounds derogatory and I wonder if it was meant to be.

The term 'artistamps' – a conflation whose 'i' somehow undermines any sense of gravitas – to describe artists' stamps, isn't much better.

Many stamp collectors are dismissive of non-official stamps and much snobbery exists, obviously.

I can understand that when you see some of the artistic rubbish (IMO) that is produced under the term 'cinderella'.

Although many official issues are also garbage, of course.


Any thoughts?

The rules here state "We insist on seeing IMAGE(S) in each new thread" so here's a stamp (designed by me) from Zombieland. It shouldn't be too hard to guess which country it's attempting to mock.

[ViccyVFU]

Its just an umbrella term for cinders .....

You know, "The stuff you would normally burn or shred, if you were not so busy"

Perfectly collectable in their own right, but often "a pollutant, at the general level".

[FRV]

In other words, a derogatory term.

Wikipedia says: "Named after Cinderella, a folk-tale underdog heroine who was treated as inferior within her family. Cinderella stamps similarly were considered inferior to postage stamps."

I should add that the title of this thread has been changed, presumably by a moderator. I'm more interested in what people think of the term, than who coined it.

As cultural objects, both postage and non-postage stamps can be equally as interesting and revealing.

[satsuma]

Interestingly the Cinderella club specifically includes forgeries and fakes in the category.

To my mind, these belong in a separate group as their is an intent to defraud, both prior to and at the time of, their release onto the market.

Compare this with say, the Anpex 5/- harbour bridge stamp, which may now be used to gull the naive, but had a different purpose at the time of issue.

Also perhaps more thought could be given before considering the term derogatory.

One way of considering the Cinderella story is that it is about a gem hidden in the dross which could only be found by the discerning

[ViccyVFU]

Many stamp collectors are dismissive of non-official stamps and much snobbery exists, obviously.

It isn't really snobbery "to ignore the things you don't collect".
... Others might just call it "Focussed".

Wiki has a good primer, for people struggling with the term, as it covers many bases ....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinderella_stamp

[Ubobo.R.O.]

I don't find the name Cinderella the least bit derogatory. I like the name.

Far better than Non-Fungible Token.

[Rigs]

I don't find the name Cinderella the least bit derogatory. I like the name.

Far better than Non-Fungible Token.

Would agree with that!

Wonder whether it is some oblique derivation from the folk tale (Wikipedia):

"The word Cinderella has, by analogy, come to mean one whose attributes were unrecognized: one who unexpectedly achieves recognition or success after a period of obscurity and neglect."
.

[Global Administrator]

I don't find the name Cinderella the least bit derogatory. I like the name.

Far better than Non-Fungible Token.

Ditto.

The term has been in use over a Century.

There are soon VERY cool Cinderella Stamps out there.

I often sell things into the $100s apiece region.

This tatty cover sold for $A380 after intense bidding for one reason - the DON BRADMAN Cinderella -

That is more than a 1932 5/- Mint Sydney Harbour Bridge stamp fetches.


These Bradman Cinderellas routinely get 3 figures even OFF cover -

Members interested should source this from a member here - 860 PAGES of them - at less than $US10 to buy - took him WEEKS of work to scan them all in. Covers Australasian and much WORLD material - info available nowhere else -

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=6466944

[FRV]

I guess being called Cinderella is better than being called Ugly Sister, after all.

And don't get me wrong, I'm very interested in non-postage stamps. There's no reason why some shouldn't be valuable!

I certainly wasn't aware that the term is so old. Any idea where it originated?

[FRV]

It isn't really snobbery "to ignore the things you don't collect".

Indeed, but let's be honest, some people are certainly snobbish about "fake" stamps. I use that word deliberately because that sums up some of the negative opinions I've come across. Opinions people are entitled to, of course!

[ViccyVFU]

I certainly wasn't aware that the term is so old. Any idea where it originated?

https://www.dictionary.com/e/cinderella-story/

Indeed, but let's be honest, some people are certainly snobbish about "fake" stamps.

"That's not snobbish, that's just law abiding"

[Global Administrator]

Indeed, but let's be honest, some people are certainly snobbish about "fake" stamps. I use that word deliberately because that sums up some of the negative opinions I've come across.

I've made a fortune selling fake stamps. Clearly described as fakes. No snobbery involved as they sell almost instantly.

I get $A6000 each for these. More than the genuines fetch. The cancel tells you everything, for those with good eyes.

Glen

[FRV]

I've made a fortune selling fake stamps. Clearly described as fakes.

I meant that I've heard the term 'fake' used to snobbishly denigrate non-postage stamps, not to describe counterfeits of official postage stamps.

I guess counterfeits exist in a grey area: are they postage or non-postage?

I've seen stamps that weren't mimicking actual stamps, but were mimicking a certain country's issues. No one would know they weren't official without referring to a catalogue.

[FRV]

"That's not snobbish, that's just law abiding"

I meant that I've heard the term 'fake' used to snobbishly denigrate non-postage stamps, not to describe counterfeits of official postage stamps.

[capetriangle]

To give a possible answer to the question, I always thought that the term emanated from the Williams Brothers.

Kindest regards

Richard Debney

[drh]

In the olden days designing home made stamp-shaped objects would have required lots of artistic skill, ingenuity and cultural knowledge however with such an array of free design apps and software available, anyone can knock up a witless or copycat cinderella in minutes, as the OP demonstrated.

[FRV]

In the olden days designing home made stamp-shaped objects would have required lots of artistic skill, ingenuity and cultural knowledge however with such an array of free design apps and software available, anyone can knock up a witless or copycat cinderella in minutes, as the OP demonstrated.

“Witless”, to you, presumably because the design satirises the Russian fascist regime (AKA Zombieland) you appear to so readily support.

[FRV]

To give a possible answer to the question, I always thought that the term emanated from the Williams Brothers.

Kindest regards

Richard Debney

Thanks Richard. Here's a little bit more information about them for anyone who's interested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._N._and_M._Williams

I actually Googled "Williams Brothers stamps" and coincidentally came across these labels, which were similar to Green Shield Stamps and the like.

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/UK_Williams_Brothers_tokens

[Global Administrator]

Cinderella stamps have been around for at least 125 years - these above were far better engraved, intaglio steel recess printed, than most 'official' postage stamps globally.

This society below was set up 120 years back. I am sure Cinderella type stamps were keenly embraced there.

[Global Administrator]

I actually Googled "Williams Brothers stamps" and coincidentally came across these labels, which were similar to Green Shield Stamps and the like.

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/UK_Williams_Brothers_tokens

These have absolutely ZERO to do with the stamp brothers.

PLEASE learn how to add attachments inline correctly.

[drh]

“Witless”, to you, presumably because the design satirises the Russian fascist regime (AKA Zombieland) you appear to so readily support.

No, it's a bit sixth form common room.

NB to non English posters this means something one would see in a teenage student's sketchpad, railing at the man/system/fashist regime.

Back on topic, I have an envelope with cinderellas, including some lovely ones featuring ships and boats from a mysterious place.

[FRV]

I actually Googled "Williams Brothers stamps" and coincidentally came across these labels, which were similar to Green Shield Stamps and the like.

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/UK_Williams_Brothers_tokens

These have absolutely ZERO to do with the stamp brothers.

PLEASE learn how to add attachments inline correctly.

I never claimed the labels had anything to do with the Williams Brothers originally referred to.

I said I "coincidentally" came across some labels with the same name. Thanks.

[Global Administrator]

“Witless”, to you, presumably because the design satirises the Russian fascist regime (AKA Zombieland) you appear to so readily support.

No, it's a bit sixth form common room.

NB to non English posters this means something one would see in a teenage student's sketchpad, railing at the man/system/fashist regime.

Back on topic, I have an envelope with cinderellas, including some lovely ones featuring ships and boats from a mysterious place.

Quite skilled artwork to my eyes anyway .. I envy those who can produce that standard.

[FRV]

“Witless”, to you, presumably because the design satirises the Russian fascist regime (AKA Zombieland) you appear to so readily support.

No, it's a bit sixth form common room.

NB to non English posters this means something one would see in a teenage student's sketchpad, railing at the man/system/fashist regime.

Back on topic, I have an envelope with cinderellas, including some lovely ones featuring ships and boats from a mysterious place.

There is a long artistic tradition of using montage, collage, the idea of mixing and remixing, etc, in order to convey a political message.

My design uses a combination of symbols (Nazi, Russian, Orwellian), with Russia’s pro-war Z insignia centre stage, to illustrate Russia’s descent into a fascist state. I think it’s reasonably succinctly done: college-level, at least, surely!

It is, as you know, a fundraising stamp, with funds raised going to support anti-war protest in Russia.

I personally don’t call that “railing at the man/system/fashist regime”, I call that trying to do something to help real people who are suffering repression for saying that they think the war in Ukraine is wrong.

I can only presume you support Russia’s invasion and bombing of Ukraine.

Apologies to everyone else if this is somewhat off-topic!

[drh]

It's a little derivative though but the monotone works okay.

The fellow travellers of the Azov guys would have loved this old Russophobic, anti-semitic, anticommunist cinderella from the time of the big one.

[Global Administrator]

Yes, more Cinderellas that sell for $100s.

The Russian leader, then as now were both very nasty b*astards.

Joseph Stalin's head in place of KGV was pretty cheeky.

Always keenly sought by GB collectors, Silver Jubilee stamp collectors, and collectors of WW2, Judaica and propaganda type material.

Glen

This German parody of the Great Britain 1935 ½d dark green Silver Jubilee stamp. Forgeries of the Silver Jubilee issue of 1935 were falsified at the Sachsenhausen concentration camp by order of Heinrich Himmler during the 2nd world war, has a bust of Stalin in place of King George VI, and misspelled English text "This war is a / Jewsh war" replacing "Silver Jubilee / Half Penny."

The dates have been altered to read 1939-1944 instead of 1910-1935. The Star of David and the hammer and sickle appear prominently in several places (3 times each). The parody is printed in sheets of 120 (10 x 12). There has always been a question about the misspelling of the word "Jewsh" and if this was an attempt by the Concentration Camp prisoners to embarrass their German masters.

[drh]

I'm amazed that with their huge, highly educated population, the German government needed to get left-wing political prisoners in a camp to design this thing. Surely one of their devout nationalist artists would have jumped at the chance to design it.

[Global Administrator]

DRH - Perhaps send an email to the current head of the Third Reich - I am sure you have their direct contact details. I am sure they'll be interested in your personal views on what all others accept as ancient history.

CC Copy in your hero Valdimor Putin too .. he might award you a Bronze Star of the Motherland?

Your pro Putin political leanings we have addressed before, and you know where that led.

stampboards, like near all of the civilised world, is condemning this unprovoked invasion of a sovereign country, and destroying large chunks of it, and bombing a hospital with pregnant women and new babies, and killing many totally innocent civilians etc.

drh can instead get his keyboard jollies back-slapping his Comrade Putin on Russian forums (until the internet gets closed there soon) but stampboards is not the place. There is no democracy whatever in Russia, so your comments are drivel, so go lecture your macho murdering hero instead about that, if you really have nothing else useful to do.

Meanwhile, my trusty can is at the ready. There is no 'democracy' here either, if I choose to use it. Go whine to Comrade Vladimir if I do. He is keenly interested in Human Rights and Democracy he says.

Admin

[norvic]

I've made a fortune selling fake stamps. Clearly described as fakes.

I meant that I've heard the term 'fake' used to snobbishly denigrate non-postage stamps, not to describe counterfeits of official postage stamps.

I guess counterfeits exist in a grey area: are they postage or non-postage?

I've seen stamps that weren't mimicking actual stamps, but were mimicking a certain country's issues. No one would know they weren't official without referring to a catalogue.

The term for these is bogus, rather than fake, or forged. You can't fake something which doesn't exist (he says, ducking!)

[capetriangle]

Norvic

The term for these is bogus, rather than fake, or forged. You can't fake something which doesn't exist (he says, ducking!)

Surely the fakes that Glen was referring to were the Sperati Kangaroo £2 forgeries which are not in the least bogus.

Kindest regards

Richard

[norvic]

Richard, in my quote I bolded the para that I was answering.

Nothing to do with the Roos, but the stamps that aren’t mimicking actual stamps, ie bogus labels.

[Ubobo.R.O.]

Back on topic, I have an envelope with cinderellas, including some lovely ones featuring ships and boats from a mysterious place.

Time for show and tell.

[drh]

Back on topic, I have an envelope with cinderellas, including some lovely ones featuring ships and boats from a mysterious place.

Time for show and tell.

Will dig them out later today.

[drh]

Sheriff/Boss/Marshall/El President..... I'll put them on the original thread, yes?

[Ubobo.R.O.]

A good idea.


PS You forgot Our Glorious Leader.

[FRV]

The term for these is bogus, rather than fake, or forged. You can't fake something which doesn't exist (he says, ducking!)

Aha, "bogus"! A whole lexicon to learn. Thanks for the clarification.

[satsuma]

This must have been only for the well heeled!
A sub of 5/- per annum in 1902 must have excluded most.

[capetriangle]

Richard, in my quote I bolded the para that I was answering.

Nothing to do with the Roos, but the stamps that aren’t mimicking actual stamps, ie bogus labels.

Ian, I missed that distinction, my apologies.

Kindest regards

Richard

[norvic]

No problem, bold doesn't show up that well. I should have used colour.

[RogerE]

.
Origin of the term "Cinderella Stamp" — coined when and by whom?
.

To give a possible answer to the question, I always thought that the term emanated from the Williams Brothers.

Kindest regards

Richard Debney

They would have been my starting point too!


1970: R.N & M. Williams

.
ISBN 0-434-86640-7

https://www.amazon.com.au/Cinderella-Stamps-Philatelic/dp/0434866407
.

So, that is a publication dated 1 Oct 1970 using the term "cinderella stamps".


1974: Bill Hornadge

.

1961: The Cinderella Philatelist

.
Crane, Ian D., Index to The Cinderella Philatelist, Volumes 1 to 25, 1961–1985, Issues 1 to 100,
and to The Private Post, the 8 issues, 1977–1985. London: Published for The Cinderella Stamp Club
by L.N. Williams, 1987 128p.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinderella_stamp#
.

The Wikipedia article cited here does not explicitly discuss the philatelic origins of the use of the term "cinderella". There is no question that stamps which would eventually be described as "cinderella stamps" were being produced in the 19th Century. But when were they first called "cinderellas"?


1959: The Cinderella Stamp Club

.
The Cinderella Stamp Club was founded on 5 June 1959 in London, England, and is an association of philatelists, amateur and professional, whose interests lie in local stamps, telegraph stamps, railway stamps, revenue stamps, fiscals, forgeries, bogus and phantom issues, Christmas, Red Cross, TB and other charity seals, registration labels, advertisement and poster stamps and many other items - all of which are the
so-called "Cinderellas of Philately".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinderella_Stamp_Club
.

The Cinderella Stamp Club has published a series of numbered handbooks, currently up to Number 14.
Handbook Number 1 is

H.E. Tester, The Literature on Cinderella Philately, 1972.
.

Not every literature item listed in that book will have "cinderella" in its title, but it should be possible to find in that handbook the earliest known published reference which uses the term "cinderella stamp".

It would be excellent if a Stampboarder with access to Tester's book could find and share with us that "earliest known use" information! Thanks in anticipation

/RogerE

_______________________________
.

Footnote: The Cinderella Stamp Club of Australasia [CSCA] is the parallel Australasian club for cinderella stamp collectors in Australia, New Zealand and neighbouring countries.

.
The Cinderella Stamp Club of Australasia (CSCA) was formed in 1984, and currently has about 110 members throughout Australia and New Zealand, and around the world.

Members' interests include Cinderellas of Australia, New Zealand and other countries.

The Club produces a journal, Cinderellas Australasia (*), and a number of monographs
— a list is available from the Secretary.
https://www.philas.net.au/cinderella-stamp-club
.

(*) The most recent journal is vol. 36, no. 1, April 2022 = Whole Number 104. It's an excellent publication, with much credit due to Editor Marilyn Gendek.

[Global Administrator]

1959: The Cinderella Stamp Club

.
The Cinderella Stamp Club was founded on 5 June 1959 in London, England, and is an association of philatelists, amateur and professional, whose interests lie in local stamps, telegraph stamps, railway stamps, revenue stamps, fiscals, forgeries, bogus and phantom issues, Christmas, Red Cross, TB and other charity seals, registration labels, advertisement and poster stamps and many other items - all of which are the
so-called "Cinderellas of Philately".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinderella_Stamp_Club
.

Well if this club in the UK was FOUNDED 63 years back, clearly the term 'Cinderella Stamps' was in wide and accepted use WELL before 63 years back.

[capetriangle]

Whilst my computer no longer receives Wikipedia, I believe the Cinderella Stamp Club was formed by the Williams Brothers with one of them being the editor of The Cinderella Philatelist.

Kindest regards

Richard

[adam78]

Whilst my computer no longer receives Wikipedia, I believe the Cinderella Stamp Club was formed by the Williams Brothers with one of them being the editor of The Cinderella Philatelist.

Kindest regards

Richard

According to the introduction to the Williams brothers' book Cinderella Stamps (1970)

"It was in 1959 that David W. Waters, a keen collectors of stamps excluded from the general catalogues, conceived the idea of forming a club for collectors with similar tastes. He wrote to about eighty philatelists whom he knew might be interested in the plan, and as a result the basis of The Cinderella Stamp Club was laid."

Sadly nowhere in their lengthy introduction do they date the term "Cinderella" or note who coined it. Perhaps it was Mr Waters.

Adam

[Global Administrator]

... my computer no longer receives Wikipedia

Post Of The Month Award.

Does your computer 'receive' stampboards by any chance Richard?

Or are you on the VIP paid subscription version?

[capetriangle]

... my computer no longer receives Wikipedia

Anytime I attempt to get into Wikipedia I get this:

en.wikipedia.org normally uses encryption to protect your information. When Chrome tried to connect to en.wikipedia.org this time, the website sent back unusual and incorrect credentials. This may happen when an attacker is trying to pretend to be en.wikipedia.org, or a Wi-Fi sign-in screen has interrupted the connection. Your information is still secure because Chrome stopped the connection before any data was exchanged.

You cannot visit en.wikipedia.org right now because the website uses HSTS. Network errors and attacks are usually temporary, so this page will probably work later.




Post Of The Month Award.

Does your computer 'receive' stampboards by any chance Richard?

Of course it does.

Or are you on the VIP paid subscription version?

No, of course not.

My comments in red.

Kindest regards

Richard

[capetriangle]

Sadly nowhere in their lengthy introduction do they date the term "Cinderella" or note who coined it. Perhaps it was Mr Waters.

Perhaps the term was taken from the popular Walt Disney 1950 animated film.

Kindest regards

Richard Debney

[adam78]

In his introduction to his 1997 publication A Bibliography of New Zealand Cinderellas, Dr Des Hurley notes "The team was coined by David W. Waters, an English philatelist, around the 1950s, to describe the scope of his colleciton of stamp-like but non-philatelic items."

[CMJ]

In the 21 November 1908 edition of Gibbons Stamp Weekly (as it was then) there is reference in a letter to a Telegraph stamp being a "Cinderella of Philately" so it would seem that the term was in colloquial usage even then.

Gibbons Stamp Weekly - 21 November 1908

The relevant paragraph is the first one on the right hand side.

[RogerE]

Thanks CMJ for posting that Gibbons Stamp Weekly page containing this paragraph:

Excerpt from Letter to the editor, from Wilmot Corfield, Calcutta
Gibbons Stamp Weekly, 21 Nov 1908

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=8964566&hilit=cinderella#p8964566
.

It's good to have a documented, dated source like that. Generalised assertions of opinion are no match for dated evidence. That said, evidence still has to be interpreted.

Currently, I am not quite confident that the paragraph in Wilmot Corfield's 1908 Letter to the Editor shows that the term "cinderella" was already in use as a philatelic category. The use of quotation marks around the phrase "Cinderella of Philately" could possibly mean either of the following:

(a) Others have been calling the telegraph stamp a "Cinderella of Philately", so I repeat that apt term.
or
(b) I would like to call the telegraph stamp a "Cinderella of Philately", as a metaphor referring to that overlooked beauty Cinderella in the familiar fairytale.

In other words:

Possibility (a) would imply current philatelic usage, in 1908, of the term "Cinderella" in reference to telegraph stamps (or more classes of stamps that were not postal). In that case, one would expect to find sporadic prior, contemporary, and subsequent published uses of the term.

Possibility (b) would imply that Corfield coined the phrase, in his Letter to the Editor, as a neat cultural reference in support of telegraph stamp collecting. In that case, one would not expect to see the term in prior publications, and would expect it to be used rarely by others in subsequent publications, since they would have to have seen Corfield's Letter to the Editor, appreciated the phrase, and presumably chose to use it in support of telegraph stamp collecting, or generalised its use to support collecting of other non-postal stamps.

Summary: I would like to see other contemporary published uses of "Cinderella", with philatelic reference, before concluding that it was in common or familiar use in 1908. One swallow does not a summer make.

/RogerE

[FRV]

Hats off for this post, and well spotted. While, as RogerE says, this is not unequivocal proof of wider usage and acceptance, it certainly dates a specific application of the term 'Cinderella' back to 1908, at least.