The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by norvic »

Global Administrator wrote: 05 Aug 2022 21:35
lesbootman wrote: 05 Aug 2022 21:27
Global Administrator wrote: 05 Aug 2022 21:15
Well poor old Britain, still getting whupped right now from minute #1 at a Commonwealth Games hosted on their own soil, (by a real sporting nation!)

What sort of hosts would we be if we weren't generous and didn't let our Antipodean visitors win a few medals ?

The Australian team have come a long way after all.

The news is here, that to steal the day, these new events will be added with no advance notice -

1. Gurning
2. Morris Dancing
3. Perpetual Whining
4. Curling
5. Chip Butties gorging
6. Darts
7. Funniest looking cloth cap
8. Naming at least 10 characters in Coronation Street
9. Caber Tossing


Nine quite unexpected Golds right there. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I knew this thread would descend into another opportunity for Brit-bashing . What the **** this has to do with Brexit I really can't see.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by GB 789 »

Ironic if ‘real sporting nations’ are judged on their medal tallies from the Commonwealth Games. What exactly does that suggest about India (5 golds - 1.2 billion people), Canada, South Africa, even the smaller countries Jamaica - few golds yet they are massively into their sport. It isn’t a great argument surely!
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by norvic »

Sargonnas wrote: 05 Aug 2022 21:33 That's not a sole British problem. Dutch inflation has hit more then 10% this month, highest since 1975.

For alot of Dutch families the bills are too high to pay and that number is rising.

Very worrisome.
And if Ukraine, Energy Crisis and so on wasn't enough we now have increases in the prices of agricultural products due to shortages caused by the dry weather - and this isn't just a British problem either.


60 French departments have ‘crisis’ drought alerts as heat continues

That's the whole country apart from some departements on the NW channel coast.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

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GB 789 wrote: 06 Aug 2022 02:21
Ironic if ‘real sporting nations’ are judged on their medal tallies from the Commonwealth Games. What exactly does that suggest about India (5 golds - 1.2 billion people),

Do you research ANYTHING before you post here??? That is a rhetorical question. You are on a roll today. :roll: :roll: :roll:

If you can handle the technology, go and check India's medal results in the past 10 Olympic Games.

Here is a start to your process of educating yourself about the real world.

India was number 48 .. with ONE (1) Gold in last Summer Olympics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Summer_Olympics_medal_table

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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by GB 789 »

Umm the number of Indian gold medals clearly was related to the current Commonwealth games, not the Olympics!!!! My post was about the Commonwealths so I’m unclear why you brought the Olympics into it.

In fact, India has won another gold over the last day and now has 6 golds but the point still stands - medals don’t reflect a nation’s love of sport. Australia is sports mad, the U.K. is sports mad, India is sports mad etc etc. It doesn’t reflect anything about a nation’s love of sport at all, just which countries spend the most on their athletes.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by Global Administrator »

Folks like you do not grasp basic logic. :roll:

India have ALWAYS been crap at Olympic and Commonwealth Games. As I pointed out. Despite their large population.

But clearly that is something you are too lazy to have checked before showing your ignorance. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Spending little money on Athletes has never set back Kenya, Ethiopia, Cuba, or Jamaica etc. Your argument holds no water.

Anyway back to the Political mess there in the UK, which this thread is about.

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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by deltic1575 »

OldDuffer1 wrote: 05 Aug 2022 21:34 Funny how economists are always right (not!). If the inflation is due to external factors the worst thing you can do is put up interest rates and increase taxes. This will just push the economy into "stagflation". Hopefully if Truss gets in she will at least address the latter!
Inflation in the UK is due to both domestic and external factors. We were seeing large price and wage rises before Russia's invasion of Ukraine and interest rates should have risen a lot earlier.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by Bennich »

I have resisted the temptation to post on this thread for some time, mainly to preserve my sanity. Now that it seems to have lost its way, a bit like Brexit, perhaps it’s the right moment to share my thoughts and those of others whose analysis I have borrowed, or abridged. In particular credits go to John Harris and Dr Richard Dixon. I apologise for the length, but this is no small subject and my ramblings are certainly not exhaustive.

When the majority of British politicians talk about Brexit and its consequences, (which is rarely, since they prefer to avoid acknowledging the elephant in the room) they tend to adopt rictus grins and assure us that, by some miracle as yet unexplained, everything is going to be just fine. Meanwhile, as the Tory leadership contest grinds on, both severely Johnson-tainted candidates are at pains to claim that life outside the EU is going wonderfully well, or soon will be. Both are full of hot air and obfuscation generated solely for the gratification of a tiny unrepresentative minority - the 150,000 or so Conservative party members who will choose the next Prime Minister. Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn who wins this unsavoury debacle, since there is nothing to set the two apart in their empty and repetitive adherence to “unleashing the potential” - which clearly does not exist. The Conservative party, or English Nationalist Party as I prefer to now call them, lurches ever further to the right. (I should perhaps mention that I was a Tory voter all my life until 2016).

No matter that leaving the EU has tangled up businesses in previously non-existent form-filling, fees and a new world of unbelievable complexity: both Prime Ministerial candidates promise to “cut the mass of EU regulations and bureaucracy holding back growth.” What they actually mean is they want to scrap all the regulations in UK law that exist as the legacy of the UK’s time in the EU (by the end of next year in Truss’s case), to “make the most of our newfound freedoms.” If you count all EU regulations, EU-related Acts of Parliament, and EU-related Statutory Instruments, about 62% of UK laws introduced between 1993 and 2014 implemented EU obligations. How these might be replaced is not clear, and they want to do this at the same time as cutting back on the number of civil servants! What they fail to grasp is that if you wish to carry on trading with your largest and closest partner, you still have to abide by their rules and standards. The UK is an increasingly lonely, sometimes downright odd presence on the world stage. Most of Europe, indeed large parts of the world, think the British have gone collectively mad. So much for ‘Global Britain’.

And then there’s the impact on everyday lives, which is becoming ever clearer as the consequences of the pandemic recede, or are largely ignored. In the face of Westminster’s mixture of silence and forced optimism, Brexit is having a measurably dire effect on just about everybody, never mind increased interest rates, a cost of living crisis, supressed inward investment and a looming recession. Of course the Brexit faithful will bleat that these are all someone else’s fault, and nothing at all to do with the fantasy that cannot be named. A recent survey carried out by the opinion pollsters Ipsos showed that the proportion of Britons who think the UK’s exit from the EU has made their daily life worse has gone up from 30% in June 2021 to 45% now, a figure that includes just under a quarter of people who voted to leave. Amid the aftershocks of national lockdowns, these mounting problems are becoming ever more obvious. Here I mention but a few……..

Britain in 2022 is a country of long waits, spiralling queues and that omnipresent feeling that not nearly enough people are being employed to keep everything running. The shortage of workers extends from pubs to hospitals to lorry drivers, but one of the most worrying examples is adult social care. “We’ve lost a lot of our European colleagues. They decided they no longer wanted to stay. They felt unwanted, unsafe, undervalued” said Nadra Ahmed, Chair of the National Care Association. Two years ago, 5.2% of those starting new jobs in adult social care were foreign nationals - now that figure is less than 2%. Brexit has resulted in a palpable and altogether unwelcome rise in xenophobia. A visit to the ‘In Limbo Project’ amply demonstrates that.

Britain is seemingly short of food, hunger is an increasingly visible problem, and empty shelves in supermarkets are now a part of everyday life - but tons of produce are also being thrown away. Since 2017, getting enough seasonal agricultural workers (traditionally from Eastern Europe) has been an annual headache. If you haven’t got labour, you can’t harvest your crop, and you don’t have a business. More than 200,000 pigs have been prematurely culled, in a country which imports 60% of its pork. The reason? Because, since Brexit, there is a lack of EU abattoir workers to process them. Freedom of movement was the oil that kept the engine going; that engine has abruptly stalled.

There are now endless hurdles confronting British buyers of EU foodstuffs. Food importers face many of the same bureaucratic nightmares as exporters - one of the reasons why the refrigerated aisles of many British supermarkets are often so sparsely stocked, which they are not on the continent. The British government was due to introduce new import controls on EU food products this summer, but these have been postponed for a fourth time. If they ever materialise, importing European products will be even more burdensome.

At the end of June, the EU published figures showing that between 2020 and 2021, British exports to the rest of Europe had fallen by 14%. Covid was part of the reason - but the plunge was also down to paperwork for virtually every product shipping between the two markets, with checks on thousands of goods being carried out on a daily basis - not to mention a sudden mess of VAT, import duties and raised charges for transporting goods from Britain to the continent and vice versa. So much for removing red tape and bureaucracy: the effect has been the polar opposite, and everyone was warned it would be so.

On Friday 22 July, the Port of Dover declared a ‘critical incident’, as people trying to get to the continent were stranded in six-hour queues. The plain fact that British travellers now have to go through the bureaucratic ritual of getting their passports stamped, instead of going through the pre-Brexit light touch checks (the typical processing time has reportedly gone from 58 to 90 seconds - which, when you’re dealing with thousands of people, is obviously a big jump). Much the same applies to British tourists now arriving at Spanish airports and elsewhere, where there have been reports of long queues for the ‘third country’ entry points that they (unhappily) must now use. It seems the concept that if you leave the club you no longer enjoy the benefits of membership is a notion that many ‘leavers’ find hard to grasp, preferring to imagine that this is some sort of retribution especially contrived by those pesky foreigners for wayward Brits who had the temerity to leave the club in the first place.

Just about every economy in the world is facing substantial problems, and the countries of mainland Europe are no exception. But whereas the EU’s GDP per head has grown by 8.5% since Brexit, the UK’s figure is just 3.8%. Moreover, the UK is now behind all the other G7 nations in its recovery from the pandemic. If a country shrinks its export markets, strangles its supply chains and creates labour shortages, this is the obvious consequence. In June this year the Office for National Statistics reported that in the July-September quarter of 2021, England and Scotland’s GDP had grown by 0.6% and 0.9% respectively (less in Wales). Thanks to the ‘controversial’ Northern Ireland Protocol, by contrast, that part of the UK is still benefiting from trading in the EU single market, and its GDP went up by 1.4%. It’s only the Tory Government, held to ransom by the Democratic Unionist Party, that claims the Protocol “isn’t working.” (Clue: the full title of the Tory party is the Conservative and Unionist Party). It’s no great surprise that the island of Ireland is enjoying a bonanza on the back of Brexit, as are direct ferry connections to the continent avoiding the UK ‘land bridge’. Meanwhile Scotland edges inexorably closer to independence.

The UK has the highest inflation rate of any country in the G7. To state the obvious, the war in Ukraine and pandemic-related supply issues are sending prices soaring across the world, but what gives Britain a particularly pronounced problem - which forecasters say will endure into the immediate future - is Brexit. Since departure from the EU the Pound has weakened, which increases the price of imports and adds to company costs. Post-Brexit limitations on foreign workers and problems with European supply chains are also hitting firms hard. The explanation for Britain’s higher inflation is inextricably bound up with Brexit, however much its proponents argue to the contrary. In effect it’s a trade war that the UK has declared on itself and it should come as no surprise that many companies, including financial services, are relocating to the EU if they are able to.

The government has tried to patch up some of the damage Brexit has inevitably caused to British universities and research. There is one obvious example: in place of the UK’s participation in the EU’s Erasmus+ programme - which, pre-Brexit, allowed thousands of UK students to study or train in Europe, and people from EU countries to do the same in the UK - there is now the Turing scheme, which will provide funding for about 40,000 British students a year to study and work abroad. But Brexit has drastically changed UK universities, what they do, and the people who work and study in them. Between 2020 and 2021 there was a 40% drop in the number of students from EU countries coming to the UK, who generated a substantial chunk of their income. Academics say that their European colleagues are also increasingly reluctant to work in the UK - partly because teaching and research often depends on people being mobile enough to move from one institution to another, often with their families, and Brexit has put no end of barriers in their way.

As Britain left the EU, UK negotiators managed to secure associate membership of Horizon Europe, the EU’s €95.5bn, seven-year “framework programme for research and innovation”. But in July it was announced that, because of the Government’s failure to resolve issues around Brexit and Northern Ireland, 115 of its grants for UK-based research projects were being cancelled. British involvement in Horizon Europe is now seriously in doubt. Naturally EU project funding (the UK was allocated nearly €40 billion for the 2014-20 funding period) no longer exists and the Government has made heavy weather of any attempt to compensate for this loss. Access to EU institutions, such as Europol, is also diminished - with obvious repercussions for effective law and order.

Those who made their living from fishing were among Brexit’s most vocal supporters, encouraged to look forward to a new ocean-going utopia of unrivalled access to British waters, and the binning of European rules and regulations. When Boris Johnson’s deal with the EU was announced, these hopes palpably faded, though some tried to hang on to a little optimism. In the view of the trade journal ‘Fishing News’, the agreement at least secured ‘tariff and quota-free exports to the EU, although with a massively increased burden of paperwork’. As one exporter explained: “We no longer export to Europe and we’ve lost 60% of our turnover. We tried, but four months after Brexit we realised it was no longer viable. We’re a small company, and it was costing us £500 per day per dispatch. It was barely worth it.” His increased costs were down to customs declarations, new charges, health certificates that now have to be completed for every variety of fish, shellfish, and more. “In the first four months of 2020, we had to spend £17,500 just on paperwork. We couldn’t afford that. it’s now easier and quicker to sell products to China than it is to France.”

For musicians, actors and the multitude of people whose work puts them on stage, Brexit amounts to a particularly mind-boggling tangle of rules, demands and fees that simply didn’t exist when practitioners of the arts could work and travel freely around mainland Europe. Obviously, this cuts both ways: fewer European performers fancy coming to the UK. Figures recently published by the campaign group ‘Best for Britain’ show that the number of British musicians playing at EU festivals this summer has fallen by 45%. One problem is differing VAT regimes in each European country. Said one: “I’m supposed to register for VAT in every single country, declare the value of all the merchandise I’m bringing in to sell, and pay VAT on it. And then when I leave the country, I can reclaim the VAT, as long as I can show that I’m bringing all the stuff out again.” Another issue is import duty, and then there are Carnets: the documents that now have to detail the equipment being moved from country to country, all entailing sizeable costs.

There are thousands of chemicals in products we use daily. In the UK and in Europe new chemicals a manufacturer wants to use have to be shown to be safe to human health and the environment prior to use. In the EU the European Chemicals Agency runs the Reach system, (Registration, Evaluation, Authorisation and restriction of Chemicals). Reach not only examines new chemicals but is also working its way through an estimated 100,000 chemicals already in use. In the Brexit negotiations the UK could have stayed part of Reach, but finally ideology trumped common sense and is now going it alone. This means creating a similar Reach system in the UK to do the same tests as in Europe and duplication of paperwork for anyone wanting to export or import from the EU. The chemical industry estimates that this duplication will cost UK businesses £1 billion to repeat tests or to buy test data from Europe.

I could go on. Brexit was but a fervent dream based on nothing more than nostalgic nationalism and preying on the disaffected after years of austerity. Now that the full effects can be seen, and felt, the scales are beginning to fall from the eyes of the faithful, but slowly and very reluctantly. Recent polling explicitly asking how the responder would vote in a hypothetical referendum on the United Kingdom re-joining the European Union, shows 48% for and 43% against. Brexit remains a cripplingly divisive subject and many will continue to blame others for its failure. That the Government has had to appoint a Minister for Brexit Opportunities is the only Brexit benefit that I can see thus far - in that no doubt they had to employ staff to support him. It seems they have hard time finding many, other than a return to imperial measurements that no-one can remember, which were never outlawed in the first place. It’s a failed project which may not have been so damaging had the UK remained in the Single Market and Customs Union, but the hard Brexiteers scuppered that possibility and now face the unpalatable consequences. My faith lies in the young, who overwhelmingly support EU membership, so we may have to wait some time before retaking our (diminished) place in Europe.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by norvic »

With such a long rambling, as you put it, I feel it necessary to comment before reading to the end. Let me start by saying that I voted to remain in the EU, because of all the benefits. Having just yesterday seen a resurrected Leave video, which laid most of the benefits at the door of the now absent 'immigrants', I realise how right I was, and how much they lied.

I no longer blame the people who were conned into voting Leave; the 'benefits' were very persuasive if you didn't know any better, or didn't investigate the claims.
There are now endless hurdles confronting British buyers of EU foodstuffs. Food importers face many of the same bureaucratic nightmares as exporters - one of the reasons why the refrigerated aisles of many British supermarkets are often so sparsely stocked,
Whilst the first two statements are true, the highlighted one is not, at least not where I live. The refrigerated and 'fresh' ranks in supermarkets are not 'sparsely stocked'. The supermarkets have ample supplies of fruit and vegetables, and meat and fish, and cheese and other dairy products. There may not be the variety, but the shelves are not empty.

Other UK members may have different experiences.
Britain is seemingly short of food, hunger is an increasingly visible problem,
If hunger is a problem it is because people don't have enough money - heat or eat, and that is in summer - not because there is a shortage of food now. (It would be useful to know the source and dating of your quotes, given the people you cited.)

Mind you, with the weather as it has been, there will be shortages of some home-grown products as yields will be much lower than usual, but I can't believe that this will be any less the case in, for example, France.
What they fail to grasp is that if you wish to carry on trading with your largest and closest partner, you still have to abide by their rules and standards.
This is obvious to anybody. We always required that imports conformed with our rules and regulations (headlights dipping to the left a very basic one, for instance), and manufacturers always knew that they would have to comply with the local rules in their export markets. Politicians who thought otherwise could only, I assume, have no knowledge of manufacturing and exporting business - career politicians, academics or lawyers don't make the best government.

As far as inflation goes, it is necessary to read even official reports very carefully, let alone interpretations in the press.

This from the UK Government website:
The Consumer Prices Index including owner occupiers' housing costs (CPIH) rose by 8.2% in the 12 months to June 2022, up from 7.9% in May.
From Statista
As of June 2022, the inflation rate in the European Union was 9.6 percent, with prices rising fastest in Estonia, which had an inflation rate of 22 percent. By contrast, the inflation rate in Malta was 6.1 percent, which was the lowest in the EU during this month.
What the narrative omits and what the graphs show is that 22 of the 26 have inflation rates higher than 8.2% with Estonia up at 22%. Only Germany, Finland, France and Malta have rates at or below 8.2%

And of course there may be some variance in the method of calculation.

But overall, the summary of the obstruction to people going about their normal working life, culled from various sources, has not been countered by any politicians or artists, farmers, manufacturers, telling us how much easier things are now.

We knew from day 1 in 2016 that things were going to be bad; they are, and much of it is down to leaving the EU.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by GB 789 »

Your thinking about the ‘youth’ all being anti - Brexit is typical of the misinformation surrounding the Brexit ‘disaster’ remainers use to argue their point.

The youth who are willing to be interviewed for a poll are NOT your average 18 year olds - they are from a certain social demographic- politically inclined (almost always to Labour or the left), generally better off, not had to experience life’s hardships because of the bank of mommy and daddy, they can waft around on their self-righteousness preaching of how ‘European’ we are and how the old folks have messed up their futures leaving the EU.

They are the types of ‘youth’ who have never experienced any real world problems because they have a silver spoon in their mouths. They can hold these ‘perfect world’ views of how nice it would be if we all could be one big, friendly group of European nations who agree on everything but without any real sense of the dirty reality for the majority. I’d love to see these pollsters take their questions to a group of 18 year olds hanging round the park or coming out of a club to see if they reflect the voice of ‘youth’ peddled in the remainer media, of course they wouldn’t.

Now of course, remainers would then love sticking the knife in saying those ‘youth’ aren’t ‘educated’ enough to think the ‘right’ way, typical Guardianista arguments always love that patronising tone of those working class, they just aren’t clever enough to understand, not to mention they are a little bit racist too. Typical left wing viewpoints about ‘educating’ (brainwashing!) others.

The problem with all polls is they always leave out the silent MAJORITY, those people who would never say out loud their feelings or beliefs in any sort of poll but when the crunch comes, they always go one way. Look at the false poll information from the 2015 Scottish independence decision, 2016 Brexit, 2019 general election - left wingers are certainly the loudest but as always, they are in the minority when it comes to the crunch.

Look at the unions and what they are trying to do on the railways, it’s the same scenario as Brexit - from news reports it always seems like they have lots of support yet you ask the average person in the street they are near always against them - they just don’t shout it from the rooftops like the ‘left’ does.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by OldDuffer1 »

I would imagine that most of those who voted leave would have been only too happy to continue with "free trade" with EU Countries. What they mostly objected to was the increasing politicisation of the "European Project" (which is now, of course, "falling apart at the seams"- Hungary, Poland etc.).

By the way, I understand that different VAT rates is nothing to do with being in or out of the EU and is also a constant problem between EU Countries?

"Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) in Europe recovered in 2021; 5,877 projects announced, an annual increase of 5% but in different sectors compared to pre-COVID 19
Investors’ confidence has decreased in 2022, with 79% of those surveyed before 1 March planning to establish/expand in Europe versus 25% of those surveyed after 14 March
France, Germany, and the UK are the top markets for FDI; their economic prospects and growth sectors have shifted significantly"
https://www.ey.com/en_cy/news/2022/07/foreign-direct-investm ... two-halves
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by norvic »

It would be helpful if you could explain which post you are replying to, maybe even quote some of the original to put this in context. You are certainly not replying to the immediately preceding post.
GB 789 wrote: 08 Aug 2022 20:47 Your thinking about the ‘youth’ all being anti - Brexit is typical of the misinformation surrounding the Brexit ‘disaster’ remainers use to argue their point.

The youth who are willing to be interviewed for a poll are NOT your average 18 year olds - they are from a certain social demographic- politically inclined (almost always to Labour or the left), generally better off, not had to experience life’s hardships because of the bank of mommy and daddy, they can waft around on their self-righteousness preaching of how ‘European’ we are and how the old folks have messed up their futures leaving the EU.

They are the types of ‘youth’ who have never experienced any real world problems because they have a silver spoon in their mouths. They can hold these ‘perfect world’ views of how nice it would be if we all could be one big, friendly group of European nations who agree on everything but without any real sense of the dirty reality for the majority. I’d love to see these pollsters take their questions to a group of 18 year olds hanging round the park or coming out of a club to see if they reflect the voice of ‘youth’ peddled in the remainer media, of course they wouldn’t.
That's the first time I've realised that the idle rich youth are all left wingers or labour supporters, though I must admit in my long-ago youth I argued with my grandfather that Harold Wilson's Redundancy Payments Act and other important-for-the-working-man legislation at the time was 'a good thing'. But then I was studying Constitution and Economics whilst working as a school-leaver at the Ministry of Labour at the time, so maybe I could see the real world, even if my family wasn't part of that group.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by GB 789 »

norvic wrote: 08 Aug 2022 21:36 It would be helpful if you could explain which post you are replying to, maybe even quote some of the original to put this in context. You are certainly not replying to the immediately preceding post.
GB 789 wrote: 08 Aug 2022 20:47 Your thinking about the ‘youth’ all being anti - Brexit is typical of the misinformation surrounding the Brexit ‘disaster’ remainers use to argue their point.

The youth who are willing to be interviewed for a poll are NOT your average 18 year olds - they are from a certain social demographic- politically inclined (almost always to Labour or the left), generally better off, not had to experience life’s hardships because of the bank of mommy and daddy, they can waft around on their self-righteousness preaching of how ‘European’ we are and how the old folks have messed up their futures leaving the EU.

They are the types of ‘youth’ who have never experienced any real world problems because they have a silver spoon in their mouths. They can hold these ‘perfect world’ views of how nice it would be if we all could be one big, friendly group of European nations who agree on everything but without any real sense of the dirty reality for the majority. I’d love to see these pollsters take their questions to a group of 18 year olds hanging round the park or coming out of a club to see if they reflect the voice of ‘youth’ peddled in the remainer media, of course they wouldn’t.
That's the first time I've realised that the idle rich youth are all left wingers or labour supporters, though I must admit in my long-ago youth I argued with my grandfather that Harold Wilson's Redundancy Payments Act and other important-for-the-working-man legislation at the time was 'a good thing'. But then I was studying Constitution and Economics whilst working as a school-leaver at the Ministry of Labour at the time, so maybe I could see the real world, even if my family wasn't part of that group.
Sorry for being unclear, I was replying to Bennich saying that the ‘youth’ of Britain would reverse Brexit.

I wanted to highlight that this is a frequent argument given by remainers about Brexit yet it is not based on the reality as clearly certain ‘elements’ of society are never polled so how can anyone make such a generalisation that the ‘youth’ all want ti stay in the EU. It’s an illogical argument. The fact I am also forced to ‘generalise’ from the ‘other’ side of the argument shows how flawed this particular focus on youth v old folk actually is.

I am certainly not saying some of the other things Bennich wrote are not true as clearly since 2016 the world seems to have jumped from one crisis to the next and what people voted for then was in a very different world context to the actual reality now. However, were we still in the EU then we would still have gone through the COVID hardships, this year’s massive inflation, etc etc. Brexit isn’t the cause of any of that.

However, every major economy is going to suffer this year and next because of what is happening worldwide, it will be over a much longer time period that the success or failure of Brexit will be judged. The Russian invasion of Ukraine ironically brought Britain much closer to EU allies like Poland and Sweden then those countries are with othe EU members.

If the EU sees out the full package of sanctions against Russia then I will happily put my hands up and say I underestimated how strong the bloc was. However, I have a feeling once the economic price is fully revealed to mainland Europe, these will be quietly watered down by protectionist policies and that will then provide the real proof of how impotent the EU is.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by deltic1575 »

GB 789 wrote: 08 Aug 2022 20:47 Your thinking about the ‘youth’ all being anti - Brexit is typical of the misinformation surrounding the Brexit ‘disaster’ remainers use to argue their point.

The youth who are willing to be interviewed for a poll are NOT your average 18 year olds - they are from a certain social demographic- politically inclined (almost always to Labour or the left), generally better off, not had to experience life’s hardships because of the bank of mommy and daddy, they can waft around on their self-righteousness preaching of how ‘European’ we are and how the old folks have messed up their futures leaving the EU.

They are the types of ‘youth’ who have never experienced any real world problems because they have a silver spoon in their mouths. They can hold these ‘perfect world’ views of how nice it would be if we all could be one big, friendly group of European nations who agree on everything but without any real sense of the dirty reality for the majority. I’d love to see these pollsters take their questions to a group of 18 year olds hanging round the park or coming out of a club to see if they reflect the voice of ‘youth’ peddled in the remainer media, of course they wouldn’t.

Now of course, remainers would then love sticking the knife in saying those ‘youth’ aren’t ‘educated’ enough to think the ‘right’ way, typical Guardianista arguments always love that patronising tone of those working class, they just aren’t clever enough to understand, not to mention they are a little bit racist too. Typical left wing viewpoints about ‘educating’ (brainwashing!) others.

The problem with all polls is they always leave out the silent MAJORITY, those people who would never say out loud their feelings or beliefs in any sort of poll but when the crunch comes, they always go one way. Look at the false poll information from the 2015 Scottish independence decision, 2016 Brexit, 2019 general election - left wingers are certainly the loudest but as always, they are in the minority when it comes to the crunch.

Look at the unions and what they are trying to do on the railways, it’s the same scenario as Brexit - from news reports it always seems like they have lots of support yet you ask the average person in the street they are near always against them - they just don’t shout it from the rooftops like the ‘left’ does.
How do you know what the views of young people are?

The only reasonably accurate means of knowing are via polls which while never going to be accurate give us a pretty good picture especially exit polls.

At the 2016 referendum 18-24 year olds voted 71 to 29 to remain.

Half of young people now go to university - those with degrees voted 68 to 32 to remain.

With regard to the rail workers strike you state "you ask the average person in the street they are near always against them" which sounds like an opinion poll to me. The latest opinion poll I could find shows 35% support for rail strikes and 49% opposed. Again the young were more likely to support, 49 to 32 for those aged 18-24, while those aged over 65 were 65 to 22 opposed.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by GB 789 »

deltic1575 wrote: 09 Aug 2022 06:33
At the 2016 referendum 18-24 year olds voted 71 to 29 to remain.

Half of young people now go to university - those with degrees voted 68 to 32 to remain.
But this here is the exact problem with polls - the data can be manipulated to back up a very debatable point.

In this case of course, remainers like to think that those 68% to remain show that the ‘educated’ members of society chose the ‘best’ option of staying in the EU but the thick ‘plebs’ (who they really think shouldn’t even be able to vote on such matters) caused Brexit to happen because they are uneducated and have no clue about they were actually voting for.

The fact is these sort of polls reinforce those voting stereotypes because they seem to fit in with the left/ right voter mentality. However, the small numbers polled compared to actual numbers of voters, means that the results of the poll should never be used or interpreted in this way as it itself then causes more internal divisions in society.

I genuinely believe there is absolutely no need for any sort of polling to be done on any election. It seems in Britain it is only done to provide the Beeb, ITV and Sky with enough content to talk about during their election night tv coverage. Actual benefit to society is nil!
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by ViccyVFU »

deltic1575 wrote: 09 Aug 2022 06:33 The only reasonably accurate means of knowing are via polls which while never going to be accurate give us a pretty good picture especially exit polls.

At the 2016 referendum 18-24 year olds voted 71 to 29 to remain.

Half of young people now go to university - those with degrees voted 68 to 32 to remain.

Utter hogwash, but no less than I've come to expect "from a very sore loser".

The vote itself "was the only opinion poll that mattered",
everything else is "speculation by idiots (who think they are clever), trying to control the narrative".

You don't know how either of the classes you list "voted in reality" ...
your version of reality simply "made up, from an unrealistic and unrepresentative sample of subset voters".

Even the "I was a Remainer" people I speak nowadays have come to accept that "its better now",
..... well, except for just one, on Stampboards :mrgreen:

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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by Global Administrator »

ViccyVFU wrote: 09 Aug 2022 10:27

Even the "I was a Remainer" people I speak nowadays have come to accept that "its better now",



Surely that is just your own rubbery, rubbery, ''poll''? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Not near as scientific and clearly laid out as the one here.

So your polling circle applaud the madly raging inflation, and soaring costs of everything, mass uncertainty, the Bank Of England this week warning the country is headed into Recession, and they feel that ''is better'' than 6 years ago?

What an interesting and pioneering and optimistic thinking group that must be! :lol: :lol:

I bet they feel that England really topped the final Commonwealth Games Medal tally too ... the newspaper figures are just biased Bolshie fiction! Not to win on your home turf, is really something truly British. :mrgreen:

VIVA OPTIMISM!

Back in the real world ....

Capture.JPG

https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-poll/

I have no real idea who ''Statista'' is. They might be Rail Union Run, they might be Tory run, they might be run by Greenpeace, or Al Quaeda, or Donald Trump. They might even select 1800 folks a month randomly - who knows? They do have 1100 staff, so presumably have some vague idea about polling?

But whomever they are, it shows the trend is clearly increasing month by month by month in the UK, that BREXIT was a BAD move.

Only in Britain would over 10% of the polled population after years of being asked consistently vote - 'I don't know'


Share of people who think Brexit was the right or wrong decision 2020-2022

Published by Statista Research Department, Aug 5, 2022

As of July 2022, 52 percent of people in Great Britain thought that it was wrong to leave the European Union, compared with 36 percent who thought it was the right decision.

During this time period, the share of people who regret Brexit has been slightly higher than those who support it, except for some polls in Spring 2021, which showed higher levels of support for Brexit.

The share of people who don’t know whether Brexit was the right or wrong decision has generally been consistent and usually ranged between 11 and 14 percent.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by deltic1575 »

GB 789 wrote: 09 Aug 2022 10:08
deltic1575 wrote: 09 Aug 2022 06:33
At the 2016 referendum 18-24 year olds voted 71 to 29 to remain.

Half of young people now go to university - those with degrees voted 68 to 32 to remain.
But this here is the exact problem with polls - the data can be manipulated to back up a very debatable point.

In this case of course, remainers like to think that those 68% to remain show that the ‘educated’ members of society chose the ‘best’ option of staying in the EU but the thick ‘plebs’ (who they really think shouldn’t even be able to vote on such matters) caused Brexit to happen because they are uneducated and have no clue about they were actually voting for.

The fact is these sort of polls reinforce those voting stereotypes because they seem to fit in with the left/ right voter mentality. However, the small numbers polled compared to actual numbers of voters, means that the results of the poll should never be used or interpreted in this way as it itself then causes more internal divisions in society.

I genuinely believe there is absolutely no need for any sort of polling to be done on any election. It seems in Britain it is only done to provide the Beeb, ITV and Sky with enough content to talk about during their election night tv coverage. Actual benefit to society is nil!
There is no manipulation of data - intelligence has nothing to do with university qualifications and what it mainly reflects is that younger people who had more opportunity to go to university were also most likely to vote remain. Most polls undertaken are by the political parties themselves. Not sure where left/right comes into it. The sample sizes used in opinion polls are large enough to provide robust estimates of peoples' intentions within a margin of error of generally 2-3%.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by deltic1575 »

ViccyVFU wrote: 09 Aug 2022 10:27
deltic1575 wrote: 09 Aug 2022 06:33 The only reasonably accurate means of knowing are via polls which while never going to be accurate give us a pretty good picture especially exit polls.

At the 2016 referendum 18-24 year olds voted 71 to 29 to remain.

Half of young people now go to university - those with degrees voted 68 to 32 to remain.

Utter hogwash, but no less than I've come to expect "from a very sore loser".

The vote itself "was the only opinion poll that mattered",
everything else is "speculation by idiots (who think they are clever), trying to control the narrative".

You don't know how either of the classes you list "voted in reality" ...
your version of reality simply "made up, from an unrealistic and unrepresentative sample of subset voters".

Even the "I was a Remainer" people I speak nowadays have come to accept that "its better now",
..... well, except for just one, on Stampboards :mrgreen:

What is utter hogwash about my post? Of course the vote itself was the only one that mattered, the discussion was about how particular segments of society voted within it. What makes you think I'm a "very sore loser".

Opinion polls are not unrealistic or unrepresentative samples of voters. They are highly realistic and representative within a usual margin of error of 2-3%. Exit polls especially are pretty accurate. Having worked with opinion poll companies, in a non-political context, I'm very familiar with the lengths they go to get as representative a sample as possible.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by norvic »

ViccyVFU wrote: 09 Aug 2022 10:27
deltic1575 wrote: 09 Aug 2022 06:33 The only reasonably accurate means of knowing are via polls which while never going to be accurate give us a pretty good picture especially exit polls.

At the 2016 referendum 18-24 year olds voted 71 to 29 to remain.

Half of young people now go to university - those with degrees voted 68 to 32 to remain.

Utter hogwash, but no less than I've come to expect "from a very sore loser".

The vote itself "was the only opinion poll that mattered",
everything else is "speculation by idiots (who think they are clever), trying to control the narrative".

You don't know how either of the classes you list "voted in reality" ...
your version of reality simply "made up, from an unrealistic and unrepresentative sample of subset voters".

Even the "I was a Remainer" people I speak nowadays have come to accept that "its better now",
..... well, except for just one, on Stampboards :mrgreen:

No, that really isn’t true. Well it may be that people YOU are in contact with feel that way but I don’t know where you find them.

The media found people who the day after the result was announced said that they voted leave and didn’t really want to.

Nobody has identified a single benefit of leaving that has actually happened.

The social and nursing care industry is in turmoil because of staff shortages. Whilst many working in that sector are from EU countries there are fewer of them than before.

The paperwork required to export food goods to Europe is worse than to countries in other parts of the world and small businesses are having to find new markets not as extra outlets but as replacements.

All the lies that we were told by a succession of politicians and others before the vote - not just that we would be better off but that trade agreements would be easy to set up - and since we left have proved to be just that.

The only people who have benefited are those who have moved their wealth away in order to avoid paying taxes, and transparency.

As for the unrealistic sample of voters, any professional opinion pollster ensures that they have a representative sample of the population as a whole. It’s not ‘standing in the street asking questions of anybody who will stop’.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by norvic »

Screen capture of political lies on Brexit.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by 22028 »

norvic wrote: 09 Aug 2022 18:01
Image
The German footballer Franz Beckenbauer said ones:
What do I care about my gossip from yesterday
The same applies to politicians...
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Of course there will be a period of adjustment after 40 years in a particular trading arrangement! (Invented by Britain, by the way!)

Talking of lies- the main lie told to the British people over many years was that the EU was not moving towards a political union. This was in spite of the contrary often being stated by EU politicians! (Presumably the hope was that most Brits didn't follow EU politics anyway).

Remember that the original vote was to join the European Economic Community- no consultations took place as the EU changed as indicated above.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by Bennich »

I’m pleased that the narrative of this thread is once more back on course. Thanks all for your reactions, good and bad. Norvic mentions a resurrected Leave campaign video, which I thought I’d start by sharing. Oh my! Nothing, but nothing, therein was true - pure fantasy - but so many believed it.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1555249564663398401

Compare that to the latest Government video “A simple guide to exporting”. Simple? My arse!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43Y2naxoRt4

On supermarket shelves:
norvic wrote: 08 Aug 2022 20:34
Whilst the first two statements are true, the highlighted one is not, at least not where I live. The refrigerated and 'fresh' ranks in supermarkets are not 'sparsely stocked'. The supermarkets have ample supplies of fruit and vegetables, and meat and fish, and cheese and other dairy products. There may not be the variety, but the shelves are not empty.
I agree this was a more visible phenomenon during the early days of the pandemic, and when panic buying was commonplace. Nevertheless, I do see gaps being filled by merchandise that belongs elsewhere in the shop, and certainly choices have become more limited. So far, so good - just about - but that could very easily change overnight.

Tim Lang, internationally renowned Professor of food policy at London’s City University says in his book, Feeding Britain, that, “although not officially at war, the UK is, de facto, facing a wartime scale of food challenge.” Panic buying aside, our supermarket shelves are usually full. And yet, he says, all of that masks a bitter reality: we have a massively fragile just-in-time supply chain which could easily collapse, and a depleted agriculture sector which produces only around 50% of the food we actually eat, leaving us at the mercies of the international markets. “At the height of the arguments over a no-deal Brexit, the heads of the big food companies were briefing the government about just how fragile the food supply chain is. Brexit has shone a spotlight on that fragility.”

On inflation:
norvic wrote: 08 Aug 2022 20:34
What the narrative omits and what the graphs show is that 22 of the 26 have inflation rates higher than 8.2% with Estonia up at 22%. Only Germany, Finland, France and Malta have rates at or below 8.2%
What I mentioned was: ‘The UK has the highest inflation rate of any country in the G7’, which is true, although Italy appears to be neck and neck. The G7 accounts for seven out of the top nine economies of the world, so it's perhaps a better yardstick than a European comparison, where the UK positively shines. As the old adage goes: there is always someone worse off than yourself.

On the young:
GB 789 wrote: 08 Aug 2022 20:47
The youth who are willing to be interviewed for a poll are NOT your average 18 year olds - they are from a certain social demographic- politically inclined (almost always to Labour or the left), generally better off, not had to experience life’s hardships because of the bank of mommy and daddy, they can waft around on their self-righteousness preaching of how ‘European’ we are and how the old folks have messed up their futures leaving the EU.
I will be the first to admit that polls can be flawed and statistics manipulated. Nevertheless countless studies of how differing age groups actually voted in the Referendum all agreed that the younger you were the more likely you would vote to remain in Europe. That is not intention, it’s what happened. Whether this group were less likely to actually turn out on the day is quite another question but the sentiments have not changed radically in the six short years since 2016, in any group. What will change in time is that the younger set will inevitably get older and the older set will, er, shuffle off this mortal coil. Studies also showed that the very old, who experienced WWII, tended to vote remain and that it was baby boomers who were more sceptical about Europe than both earlier and later generations.
2016 referendum, vote by age (British Election Study)
2016 referendum, vote by age (British Election Study)
I think you are doing the young a disfavour if you believe that the average respondent is always some opinionated privileged leftie. In my experience many of the younger generation, from all walks of life, have valid and lucid arguments in favour (or not) of EU membership and are perfectly capable of intelligent debate. When I was still a teenager I was passionately pro-Europe believing, quite rightly, that Common Market membership was the only way out of the 70’s quagmire that gave the UK the label ‘the sick man of Europe’. It seems that is where we aspire to be again. Of course, if you ask ‘a group of 18-year-olds hanging round the park or coming out of a club’ you may not get coherent answers and if I were a pollster that is not where I would start.

One of the greatest shames of Brexit is that the young can no longer contemplate an ‘Auf Wiedersehen, Pet’ experience if jobs are elusive in the UK, take up a holiday position, fill in a gap year or just ‘take off’ as so many did, often finding a permanent life, or love, in the EU. That freedom was one of the greatest benefits of EU membership. I previously worked at an EU institution in The Hague. That job no longer exists for British Nationals, more’s the pity, and that’s one less opportunity for an aspiring youngster.

On VAT:
OldDuffer1 wrote: 08 Aug 2022 21:27
By the way, I understand that different VAT rates is nothing to do with being in or out of the EU and is also a constant problem between EU Countries?
Indeed, different VAT rates in different counties have always caused difficulties. The point is that artists wishing to perform in the EU didn’t even have to think about such inconveniences prior to Brexit.

On Investment:
OldDuffer1 wrote: 08 Aug 2022 21:27
Investors’ confidence has decreased in 2022, with 79% of those surveyed before 1 March planning to establish/expand in Europe versus 25% of those surveyed after 14 March.
France, Germany, and the UK are the top markets for FDI; their economic prospects and growth sectors have shifted significantly"
I used the phrase ‘supressed inward investment’. The article Old Duffer1 usefully links states that ‘(in 2021) investment in the UK remained steady, increasing 2% to 993 projects’. The question is how much better might it have been had Brexit not happened? Obviously this is a complex field and I didn’t touch on domestic investment, which is bleaker. Kitty Ussher, Chief Economist at the Institute of Directors: “Perceived risks in the macroeconomy continued to drive the behaviour of business leaders in July, with concerns around inflation, our relationship with the EU and political instability causing investment intentions increasingly to be put on hold.”

The IoD’s Economic Confidence Index, which measures business leaders’ view of UK economic prospects, remained very low at -54 in July, only slightly higher than June’s -60. 69% of bosses were either very or quite pessimistic about the UK economy, while just 15% were optimistic about the outlook. Inflation, now at a 40-year high, was the most common reason for pessimism, cited by a third of firms. Nearly 20% of pessimistic bosses said difficulties in the UK’s trading relationship with the EU were their main worry, as the introduction of customs checks and delays at the border have hampered exports.

GB 789 wrote: 08 Aug 2022 21:57
I am certainly not saying some of the other things Bennich wrote are not true as clearly since 2016 the world seems to have jumped from one crisis to the next and what people voted for then was in a very different world context to the actual reality now. However, were we still in the EU then we would still have gone through the COVID hardships, this year’s massive inflation, etc etc. Brexit isn’t the cause of any of that.
No, Brexit is not the cause - that's obvious - but it has certainly exacerbated the UK's situation.

I conclude with an observation. The bargaining power of the EU as a bloc in trade negotiations will always far outperform anything the UK can achieve on its own. Truss’s much vaunted deals with Japan, Australia and others will add almost nothing to the GDP, may introduce lesser standards than demanded by the EU, and add very little to that which already existed prior to Brexit. In the meantime, if the Government persists in its folly to ignore the NI Protocol and break international law, the UK may yet end up with a ‘No Deal’ equivalent that can only compound the economic suicide already in progress.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by Global Administrator »

Bennich wrote: 10 Aug 2022 22:40

I conclude with an observation. The bargaining power of the EU as a bloc in trade negotiations will always far outperform anything the UK can achieve on its own. Truss’s much vaunted deals with Japan, Australia and others will add almost nothing to the GDP, may introduce lesser standards than demanded by the EU, and add very little to that which already existed prior to Brexit.

In the meantime, if the Government persists in its folly to ignore the NI Protocol and break international law, the UK may yet end up with a ‘No Deal’ equivalent that can only compound the economic suicide already in progress.
So no 'great leap forward' then for Britain as was promised? :lol:

And surely this sentence ''Truss’s much vaunted deals with Japan, Australia and others will add almost nothing to the GDP, may introduce lesser standards than demanded by the EU'' was meant to say 'HIGHER' standards .............. :mrgreen:

We just exported a plate load of sporting coaches to get you lot more able to compete at an accepted level at next Commonwealth Games etc. Our small contribution to restore some national pride. :lol:
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by OldDuffer1 »

You will certainly have the advantage of being the hosts!

Anyway, back to the plot! Shortages in manpower and supply chain problems seem to be hitting many countries at the moment- not just the UK!

Part of our problem in the UK certainly is that we have depended, particularly in the medical field, on importing talent from elsewhere, (where no doubt often they were badly needed), rather than training our own people. The "cheap fix" never works out in the long run!
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by Bennich »

Global Administrator wrote: 11 Aug 2022 01:12
And surely this sentence ''Truss’s much vaunted deals with Japan, Australia and others will add almost nothing to the GDP, may introduce lesser standards than demanded by the EU'' was meant to say 'HIGHER' standards .............. :mrgreen:
If only that were so. I'll take the cheesy Mr Green emoji in the spirit intended.....

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-11/british-australian-fo ... /100205024

The differences in food and agriculture standards between the United Kingdom and Australia are emerging as issues of concern in the coming free trade deal.

British farmers, environmentalists and consumers fear imports from Australia will compromise the UK's high animal welfare and food standards.

The differences range from the use of hormones to pesticides and more recently, regulations around farming methods that address climate change.

As the two nations get closer to a deal, Charlotte Smith, who presents BBC program Farming Today, said British farmers were nervous about the impending trade deal.

"That's because there are more than 20 agricultural chemicals and certain farming practices, which are perfectly acceptable in Australia but are banned here."
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by Sargonnas »

OldDuffer1 wrote: 11 Aug 2022 01:26 Anyway, back to the plot! Shortages in manpower and supply chain problems seem to be hitting many countries at the moment- not just the UK!

Part of our problem in the UK certainly is that we have depended, particularly in the medical field, on importing talent from elsewhere, (where no doubt often they were badly needed), rather than training our own people. The "cheap fix" never works out in the long run!
It most certainly is a problem also in other European countries. But would it be less of a problem for the UK if they would still have been able to get those much needed people from the European mainlaind?
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by Bennich »

Sargonnas wrote: 11 Aug 2022 01:47
It most certainly is a problem also in other European countries. But would it be less of a problem for the UK if they would still have been able to get those much needed people from the European mainlaind?
In a word: Yes!

Take a look at the nationality composition of our NHS (National Health Service):
NHS Nationality breakdown
NHS Nationality breakdown
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by GB 789 »

Bennich wrote: 11 Aug 2022 05:33
Sargonnas wrote: 11 Aug 2022 01:47
It most certainly is a problem also in other European countries. But would it be less of a problem for the UK if they would still have been able to get those much needed people from the European mainlaind?
In a word: Yes!

Take a look at the nationality composition of our NHS (National Health Service):

Image
It is unfortunate though that the majority of European mainland (particularly those from Eastern Europe) NHS workers filled lower paid roles. Repeated governments (both Labour and Conservative) pushed for this sort of economic immigration to drive down NHS employment costs. This cheap labour drive will be replicated in most of the larger economies across the Western World.

Now of course, there is also more competition for employees so wages are driven up in other sectors. There are still plenty of European workers (literally millions) working in Britain as well as from many other global areas. However, like the British workers, they have more of a choice of jobs now so logically go to where the best wages are. Sadly this is not currently with the NHS though, higher wages are paid in the private sector, in factories, lorry or bus drivers, cleaners, etc.

The effect of Brexit on NHS shortages is very much overplayed by the pro-EU side (of course it is!). It is the fact that the NHS are not paying wages that can compete with other industries that is having a far bigger impact on the NHS and leading to staff shortages. It is easy to blame Brexit for everything negative that happens in Britain yet this is a much bigger issue than that.

For too long, wages for manual labour have been pushed down by both the public and private sectors meaning people were not willing to do those sort of jobs for such low wages. That led to the 1990s/2000s push to attract economic immigrants to do those jobs as the low wages offered were still far higher than the equivalent job in those European countries. Now, many of these workers are still in the U.K. but have moved to better paid jobs. That is the major reason for the staff shortages seen today.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by collectordave »

Has Boris got Brexit done yet?

It is getting a bit boring.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by deltic1575 »

collectordave wrote: 22 Aug 2022 14:23 Has Boris got Brexit done yet?

It is getting a bit boring.

No - it will be never be done, as like Switzerland we will enter into constant negotiations with the EU as either their or our rules change.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by admin »

Got it - so the vote of the British people to leave the EU have now been overturned?

We sadly hear little British news here.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by Bill H UK »

admin wrote: 22 Aug 2022 18:18
We sadly hear little British news here.

Your 'cut out and keep British News guide' - just use this, it's the same most days:

1. Crisis in the NHS
2. Long delays on roads/airports
3. Railways on strike
4. Truss and Sunak argue amongst themselves, Johnson on holiday.
5. Gas prices double.
6. Executive pay doubles.
7. England batting collapse.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by admin »

Yes we knew all of THAT stuff. :) :lol: :lol:

But deltic1575 tells us Brexit will now not occur, so that is a bright spot for you all. :!: :!:

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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by collectordave »

Bill H UK wrote: 22 Aug 2022 19:54
Your 'cut out and keep British News guide' - just use this, it's the same most days:

1. Crisis in the NHS
2. Long delays on roads/airports
3. Railways on strike
4. Truss and Sunak argue amongst themselves, Johnson on holiday.
5. Gas prices double.
6. Executive pay doubles.
7. England batting collapse.
Just forgot
8. It is all the fault of the EU
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by admin »

Bill H UK wrote: 22 Aug 2022 19:54
7. England batting collapse.

To be totally fair, England as usual have always had batters AND bowlers AND fielders collapse under pressure!

As I recall they have all been laughingly given Knighthoods at various times in the past, due to random fluke performances, but even that makes zero difference. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

However, this consistently hopeless rabble has one claim to fame - they actually play CRICKET better than anyone in the EU. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by Bill H UK »

Well, the Dutch have started to take an interest, I believe, so it's probably only a matter of time... :lol:
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by admin »

They better watch out - that sporting colossus of ESTONIA might whup the Poms at cricket if they ever field a team. :lol: :lol: :lol:

They are training now using old table legs, and sundried small pumpkins to bowl with, and expect to outperform England in a few weeks. :!:

And not a Knighthood among them, and NO sissy helmets either. :mrgreen:

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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by satsuma »

collectordave wrote: 22 Aug 2022 23:47
Bill H UK wrote: 22 Aug 2022 19:54
Your 'cut out and keep British News guide' - just use this, it's the same most days:

1. Crisis in the NHS
2. Long delays on roads/airports
3. Railways on strike
4. Truss and Sunak argue amongst themselves, Johnson on holiday.
5. Gas prices double.
6. Executive pay doubles.
7. England batting collapse.
Just forgot
8. It is all the fault of the EU
9. Prevalence of swine flu, foot-in-mouth, or mad cow disease reaches new heights. New strains suspected in politicians.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by norvic »

satsuma wrote: 23 Aug 2022 09:49
collectordave wrote: 22 Aug 2022 23:47
Bill H UK wrote: 22 Aug 2022 19:54
Your 'cut out and keep British News guide' - just use this, it's the same most days:

1. Crisis in the NHS
2. Long delays on roads/airports
3. Railways on strike
4. Truss and Sunak argue amongst themselves, Johnson on holiday.
5. Gas prices double.
6. Executive pay doubles.
7. England batting collapse.
Just forgot
8. It is all the fault of the EU
9. Prevalence of swine flu, foot-in-mouth, or mad cow disease reaches new heights. New strains suspected in politicians.
No, you're way behind, we don't have any of those (unless it's happened in the last 24 hours?) Now Avian flu, yup. We had a cluckdown for several months earlier this year when we had to keep our chickens under cover, and wild bird populations, especially migrating estuary birds in huge flocks, have suffered badly.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by Sargonnas »

Great Britain is not alone in the Avian flu. Netherlands is suffering quite badly too.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by norvic »

Yes, for obvious reasons it spreads more easily than foot and mouth etc.
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by Bennich »

A good, well-balanced article without the hysteria and well worth the read. I particularly like 'Brexit politics is more likely to be egocracy rather than grand conspiracies' - that sort of sums it up.

https://www.gerhardschnyder.com/brexit-impact-tracker/2022/8 ... XvM1HGcfbc

Enjoy!
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by admin »

Bennich wrote: 28 Aug 2022 05:50
A good, well-balanced article without the hysteria and well worth the read.

https://www.gerhardschnyder.com/brexit-impact-tracker/2022/8 ... XvM1HGcfbc

Enjoy!

Thanks for that, had a read - we do not see this rather scary stuff on our TV News here. What a place to live. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

The EU seems to have modern 21st Century sanitation rules and policies, and sad to see they are now ignored in the UK in the 5 years since BREXIT.

The French are mightily p!ssed that Britain is discharging so much sewage direct into the English Channel, heading their way, and are threatening all sorts of retribution.

The Brits appear to be happy to re-visit well-tested 16th Century 'hygiene' standards - but the EU is not - and I do not blame them.

''The figure is an increase of 2,553% over five years, according to the Labour Party's analysis of Environment Agency (EA) data, released under the Freedom of Information Act.''

i.e. all of this since BREXIT. The British Public voted for this.

They thought the 1000s of large brown solid objects on Brighton and Bognor 'beaches' etc, were 'rocks masquerading as British sand' but they might be wrong it seems.

skynews-bexhill-on-sea-water-quality_5871102.jpg
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We were told those brown things on our Number #1 'beach' were SAND.


https://news.sky.com/story/huge-increase-in-raw-sewage-relea ... s-12677730

Huge increase in raw sewage released into UK waterways and sea, data reveals

The figure is an increase of 2,553% over five years, according to the Labour Party's analysis of Environment Agency (EA) data, released under the Freedom of Information Act.

Monday 22 August 2022 02:41, UK

UK Water companies have pumped raw sewage into Britain's seas and rivers for more than nine million hours since 2016, new data suggests.

The figure is an increase of 2,553% over five years, according to the Labour Party's analysis of Environment Agency (EA) data, released under the Freedom of Information Act.

Between 2016 and 2021 water companies discharged sewage into waterways and the sea for a total of 9,427,355 hours, the equivalent of 1,076 years.

It comes as the EA issued warnings to holidaymakers to avoid dozens of beaches across England and Wales this week.

Untreated sewage water was spotted pouring into the sea near Bexhill, East Sussex on Wednesday.

On Saturday, the red flags were removed, meaning the water was officially deemed safe to bathe in.


'Filthy, murky, stinks'

Residents of Bexhill told Sky News they find what they describe as "regular sewage dumps" along the coast "devastating".

Rachel Streeter moved to Bexhill-on-Sea in 2007 to enjoy wild swimming and the beach.

She described seeing faeces floating in the water on swims.

"It's filthy, murky, and it stinks. Flies actually fly above the surface of the water as well as the sewage. It's quite obvious," she said.


Rachel says her friends and family have all become sick after swimming.

Her 79-year-old mother went for a swim last week and fell ill with "a severe bacterial infection".

Businesses say they are being affected by it too.

Cliff Meadon, who runs canoeing and kayaking business Epic Life, and says he has lost "thousands" over the last two years due to sewage dumps.

"We've had to cancel sessions. We've been on the water with groups when we've had to come in as the sewage comes out. We've seen it," he said.

In Hastings people were advised not to swim due to a pollution risk this week.

Beaches in Normans Bay as well as Bexhill were closed but have now reopened.


Image
Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/uk-beaches-sewage-england/index.html

Yesterday from CNN - NOT a headline to attract foreign tourists. :!:
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by norvic »

It’s a special facility to allow migrants to walk across the channel instead of risking their lives in small boats. [(C) The Last Leg).
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by Bill H UK »

Is it Brexit to blame, though?
Or is it privatisation?

Or maybe a Conservative govt.?
In 2015, (note the date), Liz Truss (then Enviromment Minister) told Parliament:

“We have seen a reduction of 34,000 farm inspections a year and an 80% reduction in red tape from Defra [Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs]. That is vital for our £100bn food and farming industry,”

“A future Conservative government would continue to bear down on red tape. We are considering pilots for landowners and farmers to manage watercourses themselves, to get rid of a lot of bureaucracy.”

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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by admin »

norvic wrote: 28 Aug 2022 18:20 It’s a special facility to allow migrants to walk across the channel instead of risking their lives in small boats.

Got it ... a typical British Welcome Wagon?

I get you tell them they are Chip Butties, to further acclimatise them to the 'MYRIAD WONDERS' of living in the UK. 8-)
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by collectordave »

at-last-the-tories-prove-that-brexit-has-polluted-the-uk

I think I am getting the hang of this.

A vote for Brexit was a vote to remove the EU red tape.

So the first thing the government do is remove the EU red tape on sewage disposal allowing the UK to make a mess on its own doorstep. Probably polluting the inshore fisheries at the same time, anyway who do the EU think they are trying to keep our fishing grounds unpolluted.

Well it seems that a vote for Brexit was a vote to swim in **** not to walk the sunny uplands of Borisland
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Re: The Political Consequences of Britain's BREXIT Referendum?

Post by collectordave »

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/ ... brexit.pdf

Just an extract from the governments Benefits of Brexit paper, link above.

Implementing a world leading framework to clean up our air and water, halt the decline in nature and cut waste. Our world leading Environment Act sets up our new framework of environmental protections under an independent watchdog, brings nature closer to people through net gain in development and sets new legally binding targets to deliver our commitment to leave the environment in a better state.

We seem to have the first delivery of the world leading Environment Act floating in the waters around the UK. Let us hope the rest of the world does not play follow my leader.

I like the bit about bringing nature closer to people.
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