NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by eharper »

Saw this one online and I think it's an N cut-down, the line of ink to the right of N matches with another one on the Wiki.It appears to be August 12th 1936.
N, NSW.jpg
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by eharper »

Did you see the lot on eBay that just finished? It was mostly relief number postmarks, but it included a couple of NO cut-downs as well as a number 103 cut-down.
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by eharper »

Saw this on eBay, it appears to be a cut-down with an A but doesn't fit with the A in the Wiki so it may be a multi-letter cut-down.
A cut-down, NSW.jpg
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Kainnikanada »

eharper,

Until I have corrective surgery for my cataracts I am struggling to use the keyboard. Bear with me for a couple of months then I can or should be able to answer your questions etc,

Here are all the cut-downs with 'A' and their years of usage - based on my information compiled from all published sources and examples from my collection. Some day I will complete the wiki with all the data I have tabulated to date.
A.1 - DA.1 -01.jpg

DA.2 - WA.1 -02.jpg
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Kainnikanada »

eharper,

I neglected to mention the 'A' strike does not show the base configuration ergo it might not be a NSW date-stamp.
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by BigSaint »

BigSaint wrote: 18 Nov 2021 17:25
Wonder how long fdcs went from here to Qld & how many?
Ubobo.R.O. wrote: 16 Nov 2021 11:14 A recent Stamp Fair purchase.
ImageImage
BigSaint wrote: 02 Jun 2016 23:41 "S R"
Image
Image
Image
Image
I can't lay my hands on my copy of Hopson & Tobin but I think the "S R" is from the word "Street". From PPA the only six letter word that appears to fit is "Oxford Street".

Brad :)
collectrix wrote: 19 Nov 2021 15:09 There are also these items:

Image

and this

Image

I believe I posted them earlier in this thread, but am reposting them to keep all these images together.

Nina
And here is another:
J H Smyth of Sydney cachet generic fdc with KGVI 3d green stamp postmarked "S R" cut down relief cds - 14th November 1951 to Clayfield Brisbane
J H Smyth of Sydney cachet generic fdc with KGVI 3d green stamp postmarked "S R" cut down relief cds - 14th November 1951 to Clayfield Brisbane
KGVI 3d green stamp postmarked "S R" cut down relief cds - 14th November 1951
KGVI 3d green stamp postmarked "S R" cut down relief cds - 14th November 1951
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Big Tones »

Kainnikanada wrote: 19 Nov 2021 23:53 Big Tones,

Your comment regarding the diameter of the FCT strike has me contemplating adding that measurement as another component to my database information. Measuring the diameter might not be worth the effort if it is seldom required to differentiate strikes. I have to weigh the cost benefits.

Have you asked your local fellow collector his opinion on the FCT strike? His collection is noted in my database with the prefix "G:"- his earliest dated copy is '18JA37'.
Kainnikanada,

Spoke with him earlier this week. He confirmed today that all FCT copies in his collection measure 28mm, as do those with prefix ACT. He concluded that the date-stamp diameter was not relevant to the price realised.

Of interest was his observation that there has been some extraordinary price realisations for pre decimal FCT/ACT material this past year or so, particularly covers, with multiple bidders. Reason - small jurisdiction with a limited number of surviving copies.

All the best with your eye surgery.

Regards,

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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Kainnikanada »

Lauren,

Thanks for the info. I had thought about sourcing some ACT strikes to display the original versus subsequent cut-down usage but looks like I will have to curtail my pursuit with those kinds of realizations.
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Kainnikanada »

Here's a nice item recently acquired. Picked it up for 6X estimate.

After adding it to my database I have now re-evaluated several strikes in my collection e.g. year 35 became 36 and vice versa. All based on the seemingly innocuous and often overlooked time wheels. I'm preparing a paper on the use of the 'AY' cut-down. Will post conclusions here quite soon.

This cover was instrumental in my reassessment of the 'AY' usage dates.
NSW2.AY1.2C(T).360827.115P00.00.C.1686-02 1200 4MP.jpg

NSW2.AY1.2C(T).360827.115P00.00.C.1686-01 2400 4MP.jpg
mobbor: note that the '6' of '36' could easily be mistaken for a '5' thus my re-evaluation of several strikes from 1935 and 1936.
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by eharper »

AY seems to have been used quite heavily for a cut-down, examples are numerous unlike a lot of other ones.
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Kainnikanada »

'AY' was a well-travelled cut-down as my database suggests and you've noted.

Tobin noted in one of his ACCCNSW articles that the definitive cut-downs, e.g. 'Relief 41' etc., were restricted to circulation within a specific Postal District. When I plot the usages of 'AY' we will see if it was geographically restricted.

I have not seen, to date, any of these Postal District maps for any decade let alone the 50s and 60s referred to by Tobin. I must consult Richard Peck who might know something of these maps.
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by collectrix »

The Philas 'Bruce' collection of postmarks states there were 17 postal inspectors districts in NSW. Each section is shown separately on the specific 'Bruce' internet site, which is accessible from the main Philas site.

These districts are as shown on this extract from the collection:
SmartSelect_20220613-175128_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
Some of the sections in the Bruce collection also include maps of the area covered, eg for Newcastle:
SmartSelect_20220613-175331_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
and details of the central Newcastle area:
SmartSelect_20220613-175342_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
Not all of the sections include a map of the area, but this should help to explain what these districts referred to.

NB: as I am on a phone, I cannot see how to make a link to the Bruce postmark collection site, however it can be found via 'Library' on the main Philas site, and under 'Special Collections'.

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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Ubobo.R.O. »

2022-06-13_182750.jpg

https://rabit5540.wixsite.com/philas-collection/bruce-collection
Snippet of a page from the Albury District.
Snippet of a page from the Albury District.
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Kainnikanada »

Nina and Terry,

Much appreciated. I'll see what shakes out after downloading some of those maps.

The Post Office must have prepared some type of generic map for their own use. Notwithstanding this cut-down reliefs could have been randomly assigned to post offices. I'm not certain I have sufficient information in my database of usages to begin looking at districts and associated cut-downs.

I have almost completed a spreadsheet listing of all 'AY' dates in my database.
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Kainnikanada »

The following 2 covers were redirected and both have the 'AY' cut-down as a backstamp. Does anyone disagree with my observations regarding where the cut-down date-stamp was possibly used?

--------------------------- cover 1 ----------------------------------

'AY' possibly used at Deniliquin.
NSW2.AY1.2C(T).350404.7--A.00.C.0717-02.jpg

--------------------------- cover 2 ----------------------------------

'AY' possibly used at Mayfield
NSW2.AY1.2C(T).471103.530P.00.C.0718-02.jpg
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Kainnikanada »

I have prepared a provisional spreadsheet of all 'AY.1' strikes in my database.

These are in chronological order.

Note:
1.) The known usage post offices are highlighted in gray.
2.) Similar time stamps and dates are grouped and indicated by an arrow.
3.) Time groups are preliminary requiring additional research.
4.) I have added owner's so please check your information for accuracy.
5.) Use at Bankstown, Deniliquin and Mayfield require confirmation.
6.) I will prepare a rudimentary map with identified post office usages.
2022 06 14 -01 1of3.jpg

2022 06 14 -01 2of3.jpg

2022 06 14 -01 3of3.jpg

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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Big Tones »

Interesting find which appears to confirm use of NSW single letter cutdown relief ‘M’ at the Bathurst West Post Office on 14 September 1942.

Two date stamp impressions on piece of lined paper. According to Hopson & Tobin, Lilian Bourke was the Postmistress when the office opened a week earlier on 7 September 1942.

Reverse of piece has name of the well known philatelist Captain Harry Porter.
2AA3A357-5EBF-46EA-A1AB-07A8E914FED2.jpeg
D6082C34-ED73-484A-B1F4-AF49542743F1.jpeg
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Kainnikanada »

Nice find Lauren.

Not much known about this date-stamp i.e. usage seems limited.

Our collector friend has a cover with the same date but unidentified. Pass this info to him.
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Big Tones »

Kainnikanada,

Thanks. I have done that. He said his cover has a pencil notation which reads “ New Office at Bathurst”. It is a Porter cover, self addressed and the note is also in Porter’s handwriting. He pointed out that the cover is displayed in your wiki.

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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Kainnikanada »

Lauren,

I must fire my proofreader. Can't blame it on my now removed cataracts since I had reasonable vision when I separated Tony's innumerable pdfs/images into individual cut-down relief date-stamps several years ago.

My apologies to Tony.
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Big Tones »

Rod,

Tony forwarded the following scan to me this evening and asked that I post for your information. He said that he tried to contact you by email a few months back in relation to another matter but there had been no response.

The scan is of one of his single letter cut-down reliefs ‘X’ N.S.W. alongside a partial Type 2B date-stamp of O.B.X. Creek, N.S.W. (Receiving Office period - 1918) from which it was believed that the cut-down relief was derived (your Wiki & R. Tobin’s ACCC article).
DB2B3A99-9C14-49E0-946B-4871836E64D1.jpeg
Tony points out that the O.B.X. date-stamp is 2mm larger in diameter than the cut-down and that the letter ‘X’ in the cut-down is larger and a marginally different shape.

Hopson & Tobin list the Type 2B date—stamp as seen in 1930 only. The post office closed in 1931 but continued as a Telephone Office. No other date-stamps are recorded.

Tony further points out that his cut-down gives every impression of being what it purports to be but that it definitely was not cut-down from the Type 2B ‘ O.B.X.’ date-stamp, unless of course there were two.

He also pointed out that he only recently purchased this copy from a Sydney collector, not having come across one previously. He is working on an article in relation to this date-stamp.

As Tony stated in closing his email “Nothing is ever black or white with cut-down reliefs.
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Kainnikanada »

Lauren,

Interesting recent post. I must do some research before posting my thoughts on this.

I agree that the 'X' cut-down is only similar but certainly not identical to the 'O.B.X.' strike.

The 'X' cut-down is a variant of a Tobin type 2B i.e. the lower bars have been removed(?). I've labelled it as 2Bvar. The 2Bs were only issued Aug 1914 - June 1916. That's a very narrow time window for a pair of post/receiving/telephone offices, with names containing an 'X', to be operating concurrently.

.
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Kainnikanada »

This item, shown below, is part of a relief collection, from an Abacus lot to be auctioned in the upcoming Sale 248. I believe the current owner annotated the strikes. The annotation on the back of the cover is shown below as well (image capture cropped for emphasis). Note that the quality of the scan is not quite good enough to confirm the date. There also seems to be time wheels preceding the date but not noted in the adjacent accompanying comments.
NSW2.NO1.______  WaggaWagga face -01.1.jpg

NSW2.NO1.-3NO51rev -01.1.2.jpg
Below is a screen grab from my cut-down relief spreadsheet showing 3 types of 'NO' cut-down exist. The type 'NO.3' has nylon date/time wheels (aka 'SDL' - small date line) which the discussed item definitely does not have so this type can be eliminated as a potential candidate notwithstanding these were first issued ca. 1959. A screen grab of type 'NO.3' is seen below.
NSW2 NO types screen grab -01.jpg
......
NSW2 NO.3 note screenshot -01.jpg
If I assume the owner's comment is accurate and the time wheels are phantoms, then the 'NO' could be a late 'NO.1' as seen in a screen capture of a note appended to type 1.
NSW2 NO.1 note screenshot -01.jpg
If there are time wheels then 'NO.2' type applies as seen in the screen grab below.
NSW2 NO.2 note screenshot -01.jpg
The cover now becomes the earliest type 2. It conveniently sits between the two usage periods. A conumdrum since the owner neglected to adequately describe the date-line that probably has time-wheels on its left. I am awaiting a proper scan from Abacus. Wagga Wagga would probably have had a sufficient mail volume to require the use of a date-stamp with time wheels.

Therefore, it is prudent to include all information on the strike of the date-stamp's face that can be ascertained.
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by eharper »

It definitely looks like it has time wheels, maybe 6 AM or 6 PM from the looks of it.
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by collectrix »

Lot 562 in Abacus auction 248 on 20 July 2022 includes at least two cut-down relief covers, in addition to the NO cover Kainnikanada has already posted. Neither envelope has any visible information as to where they were used.
SmartSelect_20220704-001911_Chrome.jpg
1) T / N.S.W. with a year date of 1925

SmartSelect_20220702-061436_Chrome.jpg
2) GL / 1*OC49 / N.S.W. AUST

There are also Paid, ordinary and machine relief cancels in this lot, but no other cutdown reliefs that I have noted

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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Global Administrator »

This thread just won our Thread Of The Month award. :)

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=8100&start=2915

Well done - near 700 posts of great original research on a pretty obscure subject. :mrgreen:

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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Kainnikanada »

Nina,

That 'GL' cut-down, according to my database, has only seen limited usage as shown below. Grange's registered commercial cover from Brooklyn coincides with the FDC's date.
NSW2.GL.1 wiki screen capture -01.jpg
The 'T' was extensively used. The Abacus strike is now the earliest date, by a few years, in my database.
NSW2.T.1 wiki screen capture -01.jpg
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by earlierthebetter »

.
I have no idea if this is useful but thought it may be worthwhile posting anyway.

Its a RELIEF 127 CDS - ACT Australia (I think) dated 25 June 1970.

I hope it's of some use.
IMG_20220811_0016.jpg
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Kainnikanada »

Greg,

I will check dates of usage of Relief 127 in Cowley. I believe it only had an sdl (small date line - nylon wheels as opposed to the earlier, larger, steel ones).

Thanks.
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by The Pom »

Posted elsewhere, and now here at Rod's request:
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Big Tones »

The Pom wrote: 24 Aug 2022 07:29 Posted elsewhere, and now here at Rod's request:

Image
Hi Pom,

I note Rod’s response on the other thread. However, this is definitely a NSW cut down in that the post office name was completely removed from the original date stamp and then it was centrally engraved with the numeral 3.

There were only two date stamps of this type - numerals 2 & 3.

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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Kainnikanada »

I have my doubts regarding this type of date-stamp having been originally issued to a regular post office. We do not know what the intended use was but it might have been provisionally used as a relief or perhaps served another purpose.

Since the administration proved their frugal approach to issuing date-stamps by recycling returned/obsolete ones for
temporary reuse, I doubt they would have used resources to remove all the letters at the top and then re-engrave a numeral. Cut-down candidates s were abundantly available.

Issued date-stamps had that area of the hammer surface removed (where the numerals were positioned) but un-engraved blanks would have had that area available to be used for any purpose.
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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by BigSaint »


Rod

I am not sure I understand your logic in your previous post:
Australia fdc 1937 - KGVI 3d Blue Die 1 Peter Stalley cachet postmarked Adelaide 3 cds on fdi - 2nd August 1937
Australia fdc 1937 - KGVI 3d Blue Die 1 Peter Stalley cachet postmarked Adelaide 3 cds on fdi - 2nd August 1937
Australia fdc 1937 - KGVI 3d Blue Die 1A 6d Kookaburra & 1/- Lyrebird postmarked GPO Melbourne 3 cds on fdi - 2nd August 1937
Australia fdc 1937 - KGVI 3d Blue Die 1A 6d Kookaburra & 1/- Lyrebird postmarked GPO Melbourne 3 cds on fdi - 2nd August 1937
Are you saying a large Post Office like the Sydney GPO could not have had a postmark like the ones on the above covers from the Adelaide GPO & Melbourne GPO?

I imagine there would have been many Post Offices in the Sydney & Newcastle CBDs & suburban areas which could have had 3 counters or more & numbered the cancellers to a counter or staff member.

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Re: NSW cut-down RELIEF cancellers: source of originals required

Post by Big Tones »

BigSaint,

Agree. The following is extract from Bob Tobin’s article in the June 2001 ACCC Bulletin:
1536AC0C-1628-436A-8243-35A1C4FABAA2.jpeg
It does seem pretty straight forward. Well at least to me it does.

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