Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

cwm wrote: 28 Jul 2022 23:40 With the whole "swap them or use them" malarkey, I've been trying to use up my annoying ½p values which I seem to have in abundance. I dutifully took a parcel with £3.35 made up of chiefly 20½p machins to a post office, only to be told the ½ pence did not count and I needed to pay the outstanding postage of 8p! :lol:
They know nothing! https://blog.norphil.co.uk/2009/09/saving-p.html

Royal Mail have reviewed and changed their acceptance policy on post decimalisation half pence value postage stamps.
From Thursday 27 August 2009 if any half pence value stamps are used together on an item, then the total value will apply. However if used singly (or in an odd number when multiple stamps are used) the value must be rounded down.

For example: A thirteen and a half pence stamp has 13p of valid postage, two thirteen and a half pence stamps have 27p of valid postage, three thirteen and a half pence stamps have 40p of valid postage and four thirteen and a half pence stamps have 54p of valid postage.


#2
Following the withdrawal of the 1/2p coin from legal tender in 1984, Royal Mail had a policy of honouring all stamps tendered which still bear the 1/2p value as long as the total postage affixed was in whole pence. Recently, this policy was reviewed as the amount of such stamps in circulation had dropped to a negligible level after 25 years and after consulting the relevant parts of the business, such as Revenue Protection and RM Philatelic, it was agreed that we would continue to accept stamps with a 1/2p value as long as the total amount attached was a whole penny value, otherwise they would be rounded down to the nearest whole penny value.
Copied and pasted; I'm not editing the 1/2ps
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by ViccyVFU »

norvic wrote: 28 Jul 2022 23:41 Until the law in the UK says that it is an offence to own these, or trade in them, as collectable forgeries, neither eBay nor Jonathan Gilbert is doing anything wrong. Legally.

There are sufficient collectors of modern British forgeries, especially at low prices, that it is worthwhile selling them.

But the question that should be answered, and should be asked by Royal Mail, is just where are you getting these from Mr Gilbert?
Errm, Mr Gilbert is distributing fake goods, which is Trading Standards offence.

You are not committing an offence by personally collecting / owning them, but his efforts "in retail, not suitably indelibly marked", does open him up to "seizure and destruction of goods".

(Of course, they might actually be genuine stamps, and he's just selling them to bunnies "who think they are mavericks". That would be funny!! :D )

Its a strange world.

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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

Surely it's only a Trading Standards Offence if they are not marketed as collectable fakes?
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by JonEboy »

cwm wrote: 28 Jul 2022 23:40 With the whole "swap them or use them" malarkey, I've been trying to use up my annoying ½p values which I seem to have in abundance. I dutifully took a parcel with £3.35 made up of chiefly 20½p machins to a post office, only to be told the ½ pence did not count and I needed to pay the outstanding postage of 8p! :lol:
And of course they were wrong. I hope you refused??

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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by ViccyVFU »

norvic wrote: 29 Jul 2022 00:14 Surely it's only a Trading Standards Offence if they are not marketed as collectable fakes?
No, the offence lays in possession, just like knock off Gucci or Hermes bags.

Personally, as these have the Queens head on, I'd like them summarily "thrown in the tower",
but I'd settle for arrest, confiscation and destruction of all stocks. :D

Makes you wonder if RM had even considered "the cheek of these crims"

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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by Bill H UK »

ViccyVFU wrote: 29 Jul 2022 01:27
norvic wrote: 29 Jul 2022 00:14 Surely it's only a Trading Standards Offence if they are not marketed as collectable fakes?
No, the offence lays in possession, just like knock off Gucci or Hermes bags.

Personally, as these have the Queens head on, I'd like them summarily "thrown in the tower",
but I'd settle for arrest, confiscation and destruction of all stocks. :D

Makes you wonder if RM had even considered "the cheek of these crims"

Didn't it used to be the case that this sort of thing was dealt with under copyright law (as is the case with knock-off handbags etc)?
Stamp designs are RM copyright. I seem to remember RM taking action against advertisers who replicated or parodied them, but it was a long time ago - possibly when they cared more about the integrity of Her Majesty's Stamps.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

ViccyVFU wrote: 29 Jul 2022 01:27
norvic wrote: 29 Jul 2022 00:14 Surely it's only a Trading Standards Offence if they are not marketed as collectable fakes?
No, the offence lays in possession, just like knock off Gucci or Hermes bags.

Personally, as these have the Queens head on, I'd like them summarily "thrown in the tower",
but I'd settle for arrest, confiscation and destruction of all stocks. :D

Makes you wonder if RM had even considered "the cheek of these crims"

I've done several searches and found many cases where prosecutions have occurred, but they all concern people or organisations selling or offering fake goods for sale as genuine, or knock-offs which are similar goods but obviously not genuine - "iPhones" with a complete apple logo rather than one with a bite taken out, 'Canal No 5" rather than Chanel.

I can't find anything where the person or organisation is offering fakes and advertising them as such. Whilst I am quite willing to accept that you are correct, it ought to be easy to find it. The actual possession of knock-offs is not an offence.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by cwm »

JonEboy wrote: 29 Jul 2022 00:19 And of course they were wrong. I hope you refused??
I did indeed. I went to another post office, as they just spoke over me that they had worked there 30 years and that half pennies don't exist anymore, despite my attempt to explain they are still valid and add together, as norvic quoted. The other post office didn't bat an eyelid, just whipped out the calculator to check it was £3.35 :lol:

It just adds fuel to the fire of not trying to use them instead of swapping, with the difficulties there are in doing so.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by faro »

ViccyVFU wrote: 29 Jul 2022 00:01
norvic wrote: 28 Jul 2022 23:41 Until the law in the UK says that it is an offence to own these, or trade in them, as collectable forgeries, neither eBay nor Jonathan Gilbert is doing anything wrong. Legally.

There are sufficient collectors of modern British forgeries, especially at low prices, that it is worthwhile selling them.

But the question that should be answered, and should be asked by Royal Mail, is just where are you getting these from Mr Gilbert?
Errm, Mr Gilbert is distributing fake goods, which is Trading Standards offence.

You are not committing an offence by personally collecting / owning them, but his efforts "in retail, not suitably indelibly marked", does open him up to "seizure and destruction of goods".
</clip>
You leave me trying to guess how much you know, as he was also visibly purchasing pre-barcode machin forgeries from other eBay sellers, using those on sendings not only to purchasers of his own auctions (myself included) but also to himself with self-printed P&G cinderellas, defrauding the RM and selling those at £8 a pop on eBay.
1234pea Fake 1st Class Large Machin on Cover with Cinderella Post & Go London 2022 Flag.jpg
1234pea Fake 1st Class Large Machin on Cover with Cinderella Post & Go London 2022 Flag2.jpg
If I recall correctly, that particular sale finished 20th April so has just been migrated off the system.

There were several other "dubious items" in stock, but I've not checked back.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by voneschenbach1 »

With the prevalence of these in the mail system I suspect that they will end up in kiloware... how can you tell they are fake?
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

voneschenbach1 wrote: 29 Jul 2022 07:03 With the prevalence of these in the mail system I suspect that they will end up in kiloware... how can you tell they are fake?
Which ones are you referring to, the new datamatrix ones or the older ones?

As far as the old ones are concerned we have a thread here. https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=91853&hilit=machin+forgeries
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by ViccyVFU »

norvic wrote: 29 Jul 2022 04:14 The actual possession of knock-offs is not an offence.

Its the scale of it that's of interest to Trading Standards, and "intent to sell", irrespective whether you use the words "Fake", or not.

You have 100 in your collection, and trade one on eBay .... Whoopy do, no interest at all by trading standards.

You have 10,000 in stock, and evidence to suggest that you are trading in them "irrespective what your Ads say" ....

faro wrote: 29 Jul 2022 06:36
1234pea Fake 1st Class Large Machin on Cover with Cinderella Post & Go London 2022 Flag.jpg

(Nicely doxxed, though if the local trading standard pop round for a visit, they shouldn't use Google street view, as the entire street has been pulled :D ).

This appears to be "a reasonably large volume supplier / trader" for RM and Trading Standards to investigate "the supply chain", then seize and destroy.

If it carries on uninterrupted, then RM's whole scheme to swap out stamps is doomed to failure "well before next January". (Maybe that's their unwritten goal?)

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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by faro »

ViccyVFU wrote: 30 Jul 2022 00:03(Nicely doxxed, though if the local trading standard pop round for a visit, they shouldn't use Google street view, as the entire street has been pulled :D ).
Ha! Conspiracy theories incoming in three, two, one... :lol:

Well, having his own address handwritten on eBay items described as "Fake 1st Class Machin on Cover with Cinderella Post & Go London 2022 Flag" is somewhat superfluous as it's provided in the "Business seller information" of every item they're selling, anyway. ;)

Off-topic for this thread though, apologies, although it's understandable there's a bit of "urgency" to use up fakes before the deadline date as the market for flogging those at multiples of "face value" surely can't be that large?
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by voneschenbach1 »

norvic wrote: 29 Jul 2022 07:59
voneschenbach1 wrote: 29 Jul 2022 07:03 With the prevalence of these in the mail system I suspect that they will end up in kiloware... how can you tell they are fake?
Which ones are you referring to, the new datamatrix ones or the older ones?

As far as the old ones are concerned we have a thread here. https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=91853&hilit=machin+forgeries
Thanks! I have a pile of machines on-paper so it will be interesting to see if any are forgeries.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

A reader has drawn my attention to revised T&Cs for the under £200 swap scheme effective 14 July and downloadable here.
https://www.royalmail.com/sites/royalmail.com/files/2022-07/ ... y-2022.pdf

As far as I can see the only significant changes are to paras:

5.3 We reserve the right to decline an order where your swap out form or the accompanying non- barcoded stamps are: (i) incomplete; (ii) inaccurate; (iii) fraudulent; (iv) counterfeit (including ‘washed’ stamps); (v) not in compliance with these terms or the guidance specified in Clause 5.1; (vi) deficient in some other manner; or (vii) submitted to exploit the swap out scheme for profit (or where we have a reasonable suspicion of any of the foregoing circumstances specified in (i) – (vii)).

5.5. If your swap out form and/or non-barcoded stamps are lost in transit to us when using Special Delivery Guaranteed we will not consider any claim for loss unless you provide a certificate of posting and the tracking number of the item (we therefore recommend that you keep the necessary records). The foregoing sentence does not apply to swaps outs sent using the Freepost service if you are sending a standard swap out form for stamps with a postage value of £200 or less.
This is now ambiguous!

23. Non-barcoded stamps will only be replaced by barcoded stamps and will not be exchanged for cash. We will replace non-barcoded stamps eligible for swap out with the corresponding barcoded stamps (for example a 2nd class non-barcoded stamp will be replaced with a barcoded 2nd class stamp). If non-barcoded stamps you have sent to us are no longer available and are eligible for swap out, the postage value will be aggregated and we will return to you barcoded stamps to at least the equivalent value of that aggregated sum (in such cases we will typically return to you 2nd class barcoded stamps although we may at our discretion return alternative barcoded stamps, including, for example, where the aggregated value of the stamps is lower than the value of a 2nd class stamp).

23A. If we consider in our reasonable discretion that you have submitted an excessive number of swap out forms, we reserve the right to aggregate your swap out forms (and the stamps you have submitted with those forms) for the purpose of calculating the value of barcoded stamps due to you (for the avoidance of doubt, we will always return to you barcoded stamps to at least the value of the non-barcoded stamps you have submitted with the application forms we have aggregated).

23B. Books of non-barcoded stamps will be replaced by individual barcoded stamps (not books of barcoded stamps).


24. If you use a standard swap out form for values of £200 or less you must send your swap out form to the Freepost address specified at www.royalmail.com/barcodedstamps. If you use a swap out form for a swap out of £200 or more, we recommend sending your swap out form using a service with adequate compensation cover for the value of the non-barcoded stamps you are sending to us. When you send your swap out form for a swap out exceeding £200 using a Royal Mail delivery service, we will refund you for the cost of that service by returning additional barcoded stamps equal to the value of your postage cost. For the avoidance of doubt, we will not provide that refund in cash. Royal Mail Special Delivery Guaranteed is the most appropriate service to use for swaps out exceeding £200 (the Royal Mail Special Delivery Guaranteed service gives you the option to purchase up to £2,500 in compensation cover, whereas other Royal Mail services will not offer any compensation for swap outs exceeding £200).


25. Stamps must be returned in the same condition as purchased and must be on their original backing (e.g. not attached to any other items or surfaces including, without limitation, to envelopes, packaging or papers). We reserve the right to decline an order that does not comply with this clause 25.

26. We will not accept stamps in albums, boxes or other organised collections.

27. We will only accept delivery of non-barcoded stamps by hand if the postage value of the non- barcoded stamps you wish to swap out exceeds £2,500. Hand deliveries must be made to Royal Mail, Tallents House, 21 South Gyle Crescent, Edinburgh EH12 9PB. PLEASE NOTE: You must book an appointment at least 48 hours in advance by emailing TH_Bookings@royalmail.com. Appointments are subject to availability. We reserve the right to refuse hand deliveries where you have not booked an appointment.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by ViccyVFU »



I don't see anything in the changes "to cause concern".

Clearly they are onto the scammers that are trying to "bend the rules", by shipping either 200 x ½p stamps "as separate claims", or just sending in unfranked self adhesive stamps, on fragments, pritt-stuck to the form.
norvic wrote: 01 Aug 2022 20:49
5.5. If your swap out form and/or non-barcoded stamps are lost in transit to us when using Special Delivery Guaranteed we will not consider any claim for loss unless you provide a certificate of posting and the tracking number of the item (we therefore recommend that you keep the necessary records). The foregoing sentence does not apply to swaps outs sent using the Freepost service if you are sending a standard swap out form for stamps with a postage value of £200 or less.
This is now ambiguous!
Is it, though? This is a sub £200 form, so the only way you should be sending stamps is via the Freepost address, (and getting yourself a proof of posting). This is clarified as "up to £200 compensation" in clause 24.

If you choose to submit via a special delivery route, then you are going to require the proof "for the service paid for" to claim the contents compensation (plus postage). If it is delivered normally, the SD should not be refundable in stamps, "as it is unnecessary".

I imagine scammers, with their ½p claims, thinking they can burn up "a special delivery fee, of unexchangeables", hoping to see it magically transformed into "the good stuff", and RM are clarifying "that is not a possibility".

This is also re-inforced by clause 5.3(vii)

All seems pretty "straight bat" to me ... they are just trying to tie down the scammers that are having a field day with fraudulent claims.

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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

Agreed for the most part.

Being a pedant, I can read 5.5 two ways:

It is unclear whether the highlighted sentence means that they won't consider any claims at all if you use the Freepost service, or that they don't need a certificate of posting and tracking number for the Freepost service because the latter doesn't exist and some people had trouble getting Post Offices to give them a certificate for the short Freepost Swap-out address.

I actually don't see how they can not consider claims on the under £200 Freepost sendings if you have copies of the forms that you sent in, and the certificate of posting.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by cwm »

norvic wrote: 01 Aug 2022 20:49 (vii) submitted to exploit the swap out scheme for profit
This bit is interesting. I did wonder how widespread the sending in of values far lower than the 68p second class stamps would be to 'game' the system: clearly it is enough of an expense to do something about! Maybe people should send in £1.40 stamps to get three 2nd Class stamps in return to throw RM off the scent? ;)
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

cwm wrote: 01 Aug 2022 22:28
norvic wrote: 01 Aug 2022 20:49 (vii) submitted to exploit the swap out scheme for profit
This bit is interesting. I did wonder how widespread the sending in of values far lower than the 68p second class stamps would be to 'game' the system: clearly it is enough of an expense to do something about! Maybe people should send in £1.40 stamps to get three 2nd Class stamps in return to throw RM off the scent? ;)
Countered by this:
we will return to you barcoded stamps to at least the equivalent value of that aggregated sum (in such cases we will typically return to you 2nd class barcoded stamps although we may at our discretion return alternative barcoded stamps, including, for example, where the aggregated value of the stamps is lower than the value of a 2nd class stamp
I would send you 2 x 2nd class and 2 x 2p as they are going to be readily available.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by cwm »

norvic wrote: 01 Aug 2022 22:33 Countered by this:
we will return to you barcoded stamps to at least the equivalent value of that aggregated sum (in such cases we will typically return to you 2nd class barcoded stamps although we may at our discretion return alternative barcoded stamps, including, for example, where the aggregated value of the stamps is lower than the value of a 2nd class stamp
I would send you 2 x 2nd class and 2 x 2p as they are going to be readily available.
Very true! I wonder if discretion is down to an individual employee bothering to do two 2ps, or if there's a set rule.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by ViccyVFU »

norvic wrote: 01 Aug 2022 22:25 Being a pedant, I can read 5.5 two ways:

I wouldn't have it any other way :D

I don't get ambiguity from it, just "clumsy English".

norvic wrote: 01 Aug 2022 20:49
5.5. If your swap out form and/or non-barcoded stamps are lost in transit to us when using Special Delivery Guaranteed we will not consider any claim for loss unless you provide a certificate of posting and the tracking number of the item (we therefore recommend that you keep the necessary records).

The foregoing sentence does not apply to swaps outs sent using the Freepost service if you are sending a standard swap out form for stamps with a postage value of £200 or less.



24. If you use a standard swap out form for values of £200 or less you must send your swap out form to the Freepost address specified at www.royalmail.com/barcodedstamps.

If you use a swap out form for a swap out of £200 or more, we recommend sending your swap out form using a service with adequate compensation cover for the value of the non-barcoded stamps you are sending to us.

When you send your swap out form for a swap out exceeding £200 using a Royal Mail delivery service, we will refund you for the cost of that service by returning additional barcoded stamps equal to the value of your postage cost.

Royal Mail Special Delivery Guaranteed is the most appropriate service to use for swaps out exceeding £200 (the Royal Mail Special Delivery Guaranteed service gives you the option to purchase up to £2,500 in compensation cover, whereas other Royal Mail services will not offer any compensation for swap outs exceeding £200).
That says to me, quite clearly:

Under £200, Freepost, get proof of sending, and keep copies.
Max payable £200

Over £200, Special delivery, insure for appropriate amount, get proof of sending and keep copies.
Max payable Insured sum (plus SD fee paid)

NB : "I would expect both compensations to be paid out in barcoded stamps, not cash".
(Lets not make it too easy "for the Crims", but still fair "for rank and file").

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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by ViccyVFU »

norvic wrote: 01 Aug 2022 22:33
"at our discretion" (return alternative barcoded stamps)"

I don't think that's actually changed since day 1, "If you ask nicely"..... (and can add up :D )

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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

ViccyVFU wrote: 01 Aug 2022 22:40
norvic wrote: 01 Aug 2022 22:25 Being a pedant, I can read 5.5 two ways:

I wouldn't have it any other way :D

I don't get ambiguity from it, just "clumsy English".
:lol: Yes, you're right - but if clumsy English can be interpreted in different ways by different people, be sure it will be!
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by Rob K »

cwm wrote: 29 Jul 2022 05:19
JonEboy wrote: 29 Jul 2022 00:19 And of course they were wrong. I hope you refused??
I did indeed. I went to another post office, as they just spoke over me that they had worked there 30 years and that half pennies don't exist anymore, despite my attempt to explain they are still valid and add together, as norvic quoted. The other post office didn't bat an eyelid, just whipped out the calculator to check it was £3.35 :lol:

It just adds fuel to the fire of not trying to use them instead of swapping, with the difficulties there are in doing so.
It is annoying that they don't know their own rules, of course, but surely the hassle and cost of your time in going to another post office is worth far more than 8 pence?

I used to sell stuff on Amazon and use up old ½p values for postage. Most of the time I would err on the side of caution and ensure that there was enough postage on there even without the halfpennies being counted. The extra penny or two was worth spending to avoid having it whacked with postage due, or sent back to me.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by cwm »

Rob K wrote: 04 Aug 2022 21:56 It is annoying that they don't know their own rules, of course, but surely the hassle and cost of your time in going to another post office is worth far more than 8 pence?
Don't bring logic into this! ;)
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by lesbootman »

The sub-post office staff might point out that there are too many obscure rules and they can't know all of them. Also, since the ½p coin was phased out in December 1984 this shouldn't be an issue nowadays, nigh on 40 years down the line.

Furthermore, given the value in real terms of ½p these days, said sub-post office staff might (rightly) think that it wasn't worth bothering with.

If logic is brought into play, well the philatelist is on shaky ground.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by ViccyVFU »

lesbootman wrote: 04 Aug 2022 23:46 The sub-post office staff might point out that there are too many obscure rules and they can't know all of them. Also, since the ½p coin was phased out in December 1984 this shouldn't be an issue nowadays, nigh on 40 years down the line.
Given the staff don't even recognise "new issues, from two years ago", its no wonder they have "given up the ghost" on stamp recognition.

And why, following this Machin conversion, they really do need to concentrate on "making all stamps a fixed duration validity".

We are still using some stamps "issued before the average POCL clerk was born" .... :D
(Imagine the mess, "if we'd never withdrawn a bank note, over the same period").

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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

Ah, but bank notes wear out through being used multiple times, whereas stamps are only used once :?: :lol:
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by Bill H UK »

norvic wrote: 05 Aug 2022 03:03 , whereas stamps are only used once :?: :lol:
Not according to some entries on this thread! :lol: :lol:
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by lesbootman »

Bill H UK wrote: 05 Aug 2022 04:40
norvic wrote: 05 Aug 2022 03:03 , whereas stamps are only used once :?: :lol:
Not according to some entries on this thread! :lol: :lol:
Maybe Royal Mail should consider introducing a polymer machin :lol: :lol:
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

lesbootman wrote: 05 Aug 2022 18:53
Bill H UK wrote: 05 Aug 2022 04:40
norvic wrote: 05 Aug 2022 03:03 , whereas stamps are only used once :?: :lol:
Not according to some entries on this thread! :lol: :lol:
Maybe Royal Mail should consider introducing a polymer machin :lol: :lol:
The yanks did - one of their flag stamps - and managed to avoid the postmark being rubbed off; but it is very flimsy thin.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by Rockyman44 »

norvic wrote: 05 Aug 2022 20:03
The yanks did - one of their flag stamps - and managed to avoid the postmark being rubbed off; but it is very flimsy thin.
I presume you’re referring to these? The 1990 US 25c self adhesive stars & stripes, printed on polyester film and dispensed from Automatic Teller Machines. The plastic is very thin, and the postmark tends to smudge.

It’s not easy to locate used, took me a long time to find one in kiloware!
USA 1990 25c polyester film self adhesive stamp
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by Rockyman44 »

A similar “F” rate (29c) value was issued in 1991, but no polyester film stamps were issued after that as far as I’m aware. Presumably the trials were not that successful.....
USA 1991 F rate polyester film self adhesive stamp
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

I now have the barcoded country definitives to hand. Here are the England and Scotland stamps.
Scotland 2nd class datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
Scotland 2nd class datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
Scotland 1st class datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
Scotland 1st class datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
Scotland £1.85 datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
Scotland £1.85 datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
England 2nd class datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
England 2nd class datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
England 1st class datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
England 1st class datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
England £1.85 datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
England £1.85 datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
The stamps are printed in 4-colour process, apparently in litho by Cartor Security Printers (although that is now the designation for the parent company, International Security Printers). The FSC code is the one for Cartor in France rather than Walsall in England.

The datamatrix code is printed in a single colour, which bears a passing resemblance to the one of the main colours of each stamp. The colour on both the 1st class stamps is darkish brown, which doesn't feature on the stamps.

There are no security features, ie no die-cut U's and no iridescent printing showing the year. I guess this is because they have printed enough 1st and 2nd class to last, given very low sales of the gummed stamps, and the £1.85 only has to last until the next tariff rise.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

Now the Northern Ireland and Wales stamps.
Northern Ireland 2nd class datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
Northern Ireland 2nd class datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
Northern Ireland 1st class datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
Northern Ireland 1st class datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
Northern Ireland £1.85 datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
Northern Ireland £1.85 datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
Wales 2nd class datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
Wales 2nd class datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
Wales 1st class datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
Wales 1st class datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
Wales £1.85 datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
Wales £1.85 datamatrix coded stamp issued 11 August 2022.
The brown used for the datamatrix code on the Scotland and England 1st class stamps is probably the same as the brown on the Wales 2nd class. Similarly the grey on the England 2nd class stamp is very like the colour on the Northern Ireland £1.85, but darker than the Wales 1st class.

The plate grid indicates that each of the 12 stamps was printed on a separate plate of 4 panes, rather than any combination on a larger plate. Whilst this doesn't give any information about the quantities printed, it does mean that a different quantity could have been printed of each of the 12 stamps based on expected demand - fewer for the airmail stamp, fewer for Northern Ireland, etc.

The England stamps show suggested printing printing dates of 25/04/22, the Scotland on 26/04/22, the Wales on 27/04/22, and the Northern Ireland on 28/04/22.

The interpreted datamatrix code has what appears to be a date, in that the last four digits are 0422. But the 'dates' are different for each stamp as follows:

120422 - England 1st
130422 - England 2nd
140422 - England £1.85
190422 - Scotland 1st
200422 - Scotland 2nd
210422 - Scotland £1.85
220422 - Wales 1st
250422 - Wales 2nd
260422 - Wales £1.85
270422 - N Ireland 1st
280422 - N Ireland 2nd
290422 - N Ireland £1.85 (if a date, it's after the indicated printing date.)

23 and 24 April were weekend dates.

Top two rows of the sheet of Scotland 2nd class stamps showing sheet markings.
Top two rows of the sheet of Scotland 2nd class stamps showing sheet markings.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by cgm »

50 stamps in clear bag
50 stamps in clear bag
Hi.
Hope this isn't a silly question. The conditions for the bulk swap-out say "clearly batched by the stamp value and
colour in clear plastic bags of 50 stamps".
I don't have many clear plastic bags, but I have dozens of the bags illustrated - clear plastic on the front and thin paper on the back. Do people think Royal Mail will accept these? If not, what might they do?
Thanks
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

Other people can tell you what they have alreaady done, but I see no problem in using the clearfront bags that we use for so many other things in stamp collecting and dealing.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by lesbootman »

Those bags would probably be ok. I used bank bags for a lot of my bags of 50 when I sent the £200+ form off and those were processed without problems.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by ViccyVFU »



Think of it from their perspective ..... this exchange is not a profitable activity for them, so "anything they can work with, to effect a speedy conclusion", is "in their interest".

(If they reject the stamps the first time, they know they are only coming back, so ultimately, "more costs to them").

When you see the level of frugality some people go to ..... ("who pays for the polybags?"..... Seriously :D ).

Get "as close to their instructions, as is reasonably practical" and you'll be fine.

The clear faced bags look fine to me, as are (bank) coin bags. I know clear A4 wallets (folded to A5) have been accepted .... all they want is tidy presentation, so they can validate your claim with minimum chance of confusion, (or omission).

I'm processing two boxes of dregs this week ... here's one of the more obscure folders "making its way into baggies".

IMG_7461.JPG
IMG_7462.JPG
IMG_7463.JPG
IMG_7464.JPG

Another "collectable" bites the dust .... some of the stamps are being pulled by colour (for modellers), others are just going into general mixes ..... there isn't even "a single NVI's value" to this whole folder!!

(Time-wise, the early stamps are not worth "the time to process" in the exchange scheme)

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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by lesbootman »

I received several items of mail this morning (my birthday is imminent) and noted that Royal Mail have turned to slogan postmarks to get the message across about non-barcoded stamps.

There's only so much space on a slogan postmark but it does seem to suggest that the only stamps that will be acceptable after 31st January 2023 are the bar-coded ones.

22 08 09 IMG_20220809_112215_113.jpg


And one item of mail (an ebay purchase) was from someone who had already got the message!

22 08 09 IMG_20220809_112312_802.jpg
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

And the national and regional press won't be helping things, despite Royal Mail's press releases probably being quite specific. (Must check if that PR is online yet.)
Screenshot 2022-08-08 at 08.51.52.png
Misleading words and images from the regional press!
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by yellowduck »

ViccyVFU wrote: 09 Aug 2022 20:25 Image
"Shortlived"..."1967-1970"...3 years isn't that short. Maybe compared to past series that were used 10 years, or what the Machins have gone on to be (but did they realize in 1971 that the Machin design would be as immortal as the Queen herself?)
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by Rockyman44 »

So this GB London Mint folder (which I’ve never seen before) with a limited edition of just 499 is not worth selling as it is?

I realise the face value of the stamps is very low, but it’s still a rare item.

Is the market for these “collectibles” really so poor now?
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by ViccyVFU »

Rockyman44 wrote: 10 Aug 2022 22:40 So this GB London Mint folder (which I’ve never seen before) with a limited edition of just 499 is not worth selling as it is?

I realise the face value of the stamps is very low, but it’s still a rare item.

Is the market for these “collectibles” really so poor now?

Its exceedingly common stamps, albeit in an uncommon setting.

But the folder isn't pristine mint, its been signed on the back, and I didn't want to spend any time chasing "a couple of quid" (at most).

So, yes, a lot of the mediocre folders are being chipped, and contents sold to modellers (or machin swapped), along the way.

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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by Rockyman44 »

I see, quite understandable as the folder isn’t in perfect condition.

Time is money of course....

I like the quote in the blurb at the bottom of the folder from David Moss - “due to rarity of these original coins and stamps......” Very misleading!
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by OldDuffer1 »

norvic wrote: 08 Aug 2022 07:42 Now the Northern Ireland and Wales stamps.
ImageImageImageImageImageImage
The brown used for the datamatrix code on the Scotland and England 1st class stamps is probably the same as the brown on the Wales 2nd class. Similarly the grey on the England 2nd class stamp is very like the colour on the Northern Ireland £1.85, but darker than the Wales 1st class.

The plate grid indicates that each of the 12 stamps was printed on a separate plate of 4 panes, rather than any combination on a larger plate. Whilst this doesn't give any information about the quantities printed, it does mean that a different quantity could have been printed of each of the 12 stamps based on expected demand - fewer for the airmail stamp, fewer for Northern Ireland, etc.

The England stamps show suggested printing printing dates of 25/04/22, the Scotland on 26/04/22, the Wales on 27/04/22, and the Northern Ireland on 28/04/22.

The interpreted datamatrix code has what appears to be a date, in that the last four digits are 0422. But the 'dates' are different for each stamp as follows:

120422 - England 1st
130422 - England 2nd
140422 - England £1.85
190422 - Scotland 1st
200422 - Scotland 2nd
210422 - Scotland £1.85
220422 - Wales 1st
250422 - Wales 2nd
260422 - Wales £1.85
270422 - N Ireland 1st
280422 - N Ireland 2nd
290422 - N Ireland £1.85 (if a date, it's after the indicated printing date.)

23 and 24 April were weekend dates.

Image
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by OldDuffer1 »

OldDuffer1 wrote: 11 Aug 2022 23:16 Correction to above:
Just received a full sheet (25) of Scottish 2nds- issued today? For use, not collection!
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

Posted a customer order with the Welsh set as part postage at Church Stoke Powys. And the lady at the counter hadn’t seen them.

Went on to Montgomery for lunch, but the PO and cafe there was closed due to a covid outbreak. It’s not gone yet.

Any other reports ?
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by overprints »

I realise the face value of the stamps is very low, but it’s still a rare item.

Is the market for these “collectibles” really so poor now?
Artificial rarity
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by lesbootman »

Rockyman44 wrote: 10 Aug 2022 22:40 So this GB London Mint folder (which I’ve never seen before) with a limited edition of just 499 is not worth selling as it is?

I realise the face value of the stamps is very low, but it’s still a rare item.

Is the market for these “collectibles” really so poor now?
If it had been an official Royal Mail production then it would surprise me if it were not "sought after" in view of it's limited edition status. It looks like a private production though, which makes a big difference.
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