Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

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Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

Post by Global Administrator »

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This week I bought the 10/- 1913 First Watermark Roo shown here cancelled “HONOLULU - HAWAII - 1914”.

Now a few penny letters and postcards sometimes dodged getting cancelled here, and were done at arrival country if noticed, but a 10/- Roo??

That was on a huge sea parcel, and not getting cancelled here is beyond belief. A week's wages type sum.

Can anyone advise if the vertical numeral part of the cancel is always showing 1 or 2 etc? These cancels were in use all over the USA -- was it a hand held type Hammer - or a machine cancel?

Below is a very cool 1914 Promo envelope I saw on the web, double sides showing this same 1914 Honolulu cancel.




Roo 10sh 1st HAWAII cancel 5-21.jpg
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Obverse-Hawaii-Promotion-Committe-Cover-with-1914-Mid-Pacific-Carnival-stamp-affixed.jpg
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Hawaii-Promotion-Committe-Cover-with-1914-Mid-Pacific-Carnival-stamp-affixed.jpg
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Re: Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

Post by GB 789 »

Could a possible reason for not having an Australian cancellation be that it was attached to a ship letter posted on the route between Australia and San Francisco which may well also have called at Hawaii en route.

The routings look plausible and perhaps somebody living in Sydney or another port city could have posted the letter directly onto the passing ship rather than go via the usual postal channel.
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Re: Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

Post by Global Administrator »

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PAQUEBOT usage was certainly common. Passengers were at sea for WEEKS to and from here. Lots of postcard and letter writing. :lol: :lol: :lol:

What mail received these cancels? The TSUNAMI of letters and postcards that passengers on the regular long cruises mailed in this era. Remember - no phones, no emails, no text messages, no Facebook, no Twitter etc.

Just days, indeed many often weeks, of boring open ocean to write to everyone you knew, telling them you were on holiday and having a great time!

In 1892 the Universal Postal Union (UPU) decided that all ships were quote - their “own Sovereign Territory while on the high seas, and outside territorial waters” and decreed that a passenger could write a letter, add a stamp of the country the ship was registered in, and put the letter in the ship's on-board mailbox.

From there it was taken to the ship side post office in the next port of call by The Purser, and a "Paquebot" postmark of that city and arrival country was added to the letter, usually cancelling over the stamp. The GB 1½d postcard nearby was addressed to New York, and handed to dockside PO in Liverpool. “Arriving England Sunday, having a nice time.”


Nov17-PAQUEBOT postcard to NYC.jpg


So, locating Australia Kangaroo stamps with a range of different PAQUEBOT cancels on them is not unusual at all, as the sea journey in the WWI era to the UK was typically six WEEKS for the long 10,000 mile cruise - so LOTS of postcard writing took place!

HOWEVER, one sees them in face values of ½d,1d, 2d or 2½d, as those covered all the global postcard and letter and printed newspaper rates relevant then in WWI.

They dropped them in the mailbox at Purser's office, and he posted them landslide with that origin country stamps on them.

But 10/- paid for a 20 kilo type parcel overseas in 1914! I have never heard of ship's pursers being trained or equipped to handle the rates and customs paperwork, complying with the very many restrictions and varagies, and rules of parcel post, and invoices etc, required for anything other than simple letters/postcards. Of which there were 1000s on a long voyage.
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Re: Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

Post by satsuma »

Do we need to assume this was passenger's mail?

If the ship's master or crew prepared a parcel enroute, wouldn't the same rules apply?

There's no evidence that Hawaii was the final destination of the item.
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Re: Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

Post by David Benson »

It is a hand held duplex cancel,

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Re: Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

Post by Global Administrator »

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Thanks, David, that is what I assumed.

There are 2 strikes pretty close together, so that makes sense.
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Re: Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

Post by Catweazle »

This would certainly make for a pretty cool sideline collection. For the record, here's another one Glen listed not long ago – this time on the 5/- Kangaroo, but with a different sort of postmark...
Honolulu Cancel on 5/- Australian Kangaroo
Honolulu Cancel on 5/- Australian Kangaroo
Noted a 5/- Roo seems to have passed unsold in Daniel F. Kelleher Auctions, LLC Sale: 737. Seems strange to me – I would have thought someone would have jumped it at it at any price for the novelty factor alone. Image taken from my not-yet-signed-in-again Stamp Auction Network account. :)
Lot #1856: 1913 5/- Kangaroo (1st Watermark) cancelled by Honolulu Hawaii duplex
Lot #1856: 1913 5/- Kangaroo (1st Watermark) cancelled by Honolulu Hawaii duplex
For those interested, here's a lot in the upcoming Philas Stamp Auction #140 (Lot #2146):
Philas Auction Lot 2146: 5 illustrated covers with Australian pre-decimal stamps postmarked in Honolulu
Philas Auction Lot 2146: 5 illustrated covers with Australian pre-decimal stamps postmarked in Honolulu
Philas Auction wrote:HAWAII 5 illustrated commem cvrs, Chinese in Hawaii 1789-1939, pmk Honolulu 8/9/39. 2 Easter Sunday cvrs, pmk VSS ships 9/4/39, USS Arganaut (Sub) sunk of Raboul by Japanese destroyers 10/1/43. USS Lark minesweeper attacked Manilla 8/12/41 but escaped to W.A. (cvr toned). All cvrs have Aust stamps & are possibly unique. 1942 Panama censored cvr. Good cond except Lark cvr. RARE.
Would love to know more about these things!
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Re: Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

Post by Global Administrator »

I'd suspect the 5/- and 10/- were on the same WWI parcel. What we can see of dates points to that.

I sold the 5/- last week for $A225. The unsold USA copy is in strong USD, plus 20% buyer fee, plus about $US25 Reg'd post, using a meter frank, so will have been no bargain. :lol:
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Re: Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

Post by satsuma »

Global Administrator wrote: 04 Jun 2022 20:58 I'd suspect the 5/- and 10/- were on the same WWI parcel. What we can see of dates points to that.
I suspect you're right!
Roos cancelled Honolulu
Roos cancelled Honolulu
And from the additional markings probably at least two others as well. The top mark on the 5/- appears to be unrelated to the 10/-; and the bottom mark on the 10/- appears to be unrelated to the 5/-. :!:
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Re: Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

Post by BigSaint »

David Benson wrote: 16 May 2021 09:13 It is a hand held duplex cancel,

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With the year between the date section & the cancel section it is actually a hand held "triplex" cancel.

A duplex has the year within the date section.

:D
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Re: Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

Post by Global Administrator »

The cancel hammer will have given this result below, with year in 4 numerals in centre.

I presume year slugs were changeable, so yes 'triplex' is probably a strictly more accurate term for those. 8-)


Image
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Re: Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

Post by Catweazle »

For anyone interested in this stuff – mind if I add this here? In the latest catalogue from Phoenix's World Philatelic Auction #94.
Phoenix Auctions wrote:Lot #498: 5/- Grey-Black & Chrome used with 'SAN FRANCISCO/FERRY/CAL', BW #44, rare cancel on kangaroos, Cat $250.
Used 5/- Kangaroo from San Francisco Ferry
Used 5/- Kangaroo from San Francisco Ferry
Pretty well chewed perfs. Actually there are no perfs anymore :lol: But with a starting price of just AUD$75 (almost USD$50), a nice item.

Unsure if sent on board a ferry, or from the Ferry Station Post Office Building down by the Fisherman's Wharf there.
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Re: Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

Post by ViccyVFU »

BigSaint wrote: 04 Jun 2022 23:26
David Benson wrote: 16 May 2021 09:13
It is a hand held duplex cancel
With the year between the date section & the cancel section it is actually a hand held "triplex" cancel.

Err, no, its definitely a duplex.

Its name derives from the TWO functions it performs, namely to CANCEL the postage stamp, and IMPRINT a date

duplex.jpg
Duplex Definition - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplex_canceller


Here's what the device looks like (image reflected, to read!!)

mirror.jpg

And here's a different one, parted out, to show the three variable slots "that can be altered" ....


bethel_1_small.jpg
bethel_2_small.jpg
bethel_3_small.jpg

(Definitely labour saving to only have to change the year die "once a year", rather than "at every iteration of the time / date combo").

Some devices incorporated the three slug lines "within the ring", but "the basic function" was unchanged.

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Re: Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

Post by BigSaint »


Viccyvfu, are you sure?

Hamilton Philatelic Society - An Overview of Postmarks & Hand Cancels page 24 of 54
Duplex & Triplex hand cancels.
Duplex & Triplex hand cancels.

http://www.hamiltonphilatelic.org/presentations/postmarks.pdf
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Re: Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

Post by ViccyVFU »

BigSaint wrote: 15 Aug 2022 01:21
Viccyvfu, are you sure?

No :D ,
but I am fairly sure both those shown in the presentation examples are duplex,
(for the two purposes stated above, and no other).

If it was a triplex, "what is the third purpose"??


The only other place I've seen it called a triplex is here:

triplex.jpg

... and that's "a single point definition" (the presentation cited referred to "a societies" definition), so not common enough to make me think "its in common parlance" (or, indeed, more than one American dreamed it up!!).

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Re: Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

Post by BigSaint »


So here is the same Society's description of a duplex cancel:
Duplex Handstamp.png
As I stated before what makes a duplex a triplex is the year between the date stamp & the canceller.

As for the purpose, it puts the year in the postmark.

:D
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Re: Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

Post by ViccyVFU »



Yes, duplex is the correct term, for this type of postmark.
The year is NOT a third purpose.

(Triplex exists only in one Society's mind, it seems... not even WIKI mentions it).

The industry term is "Duplex"

duplex_stamps.jpg
duped_less.jpg
iowa.jpg

(Seems we are "robustly debating" something I couldn't give a fig about, .... but)

"if you want to find that kind of postmark on any website",
best use the correct industry term (Which is "Duplex" :D )

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Re: Info sought on this common HONOLULU 1914 cancel.

Post by BigSaint »


Viccyvfu

When I started collecting US first day covers over 25 years ago I learned when I used the term duplex for these postmarks I was told by the experienced US philatelists that they were triplex cancels because the year was between the cds & the canceller. Duplex cancels had the year within the cds section. A description that is matched by the United States Stamp Society.

So now I am being advised by someone who has read "Wikipedia" that what I have learned over the 25 years is up the creek & because it is not within their collecting interest they don't give a fig.

I have better things to do :!:
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