What does "Substituted Cliche" on an Australian stamp mean?

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blackrom
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What does "Substituted Cliche" on an Australian stamp mean?

Post by blackrom »

I can't find out what it means using google, and its sending me bonkers.. Maybe I'm searching wrong?

But what does "Substituted Cliche" mean?
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Re: What does "Substituted Cliche" on a stamp mean?

Post by Kainnikanada »

Did you use the search function at the bottom of every Stampboards' page? It comes in handy to know that it exists.

All the pundits on Stampboards will soon be providing their spiels on what the meaning of 'substituted cliche" is.

One well-known substituted (no need for a definition) cliche (a position within the printing plate) is the 6d Roo from 1R60 (Right Pane cliche 60).

The printing plate consisted of Upper and Lower plates; each having a left and right pane of 10 rows of 6 cliches (10x6).

Depending on the type of printing process used the term cliche is sometimes used interchangeably with 'electro' and/or 'plate position'.

Check out this thread for some background on one of the numerous Australian substituted cliches:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=25115.
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Re: What does "Substituted Cliche" on a stamp mean?

Post by Global Administrator »

In short, the printer swapped (substituted) a new unit (cliche) into an existing printing plate, because of severe damage to the original position.

The best known in KGV Australia stamps is the 1d Red you bought recently - my photos of that below showing how to pick it. There were 2 units Die 1 and Die 2.

This replaced the 1d Red Rusted Cliché or Pre-Substituted Cliché 2 units which are worth $1000s.


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KGV 1d Red Die 2 stamp, "SUBSTITUTED CLICHÉ"



The Die 2 substituted cliché, with postmark well away from the ID factors – the worn down crown top, the larger frame break to right of crown, large white "egg" under emu tail, and rounded corner under the Die 2 spur.

SG 21DB.
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Re: What does "Substituted Cliche" on a stamp mean?

Post by Global Administrator »

This was Arthur Gray's block of the 1d Red KGV head with PRE-Substitued Cliches ... the lower left 2 units.

The damage famously was done by rats gnawing at the plate when in storage during WW1 or so legend has it!

Sold for $85,000 after the sale. A few folks had sealed offers in for it, me included, as it is a unique block, and I think at $85,000 was great value for the person who offered more than me. :mrgreen:


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Description:

ONE PENNY RED COMB PERF SMOOTH PAPER: 1d carmine-red block of 6 [28-30/34-36] with both Rusted (Pre-Substituted) Clichés [34-35] BW #71(2)j & k (SG 21ca), lightly mounted. A highly important item.

The ACSC states at Note 7 on page 4/81 that "Mint examples are very rare..." and that this is the only multiple including both affected units in private hands: Cat $125,000 (£32,000+++). Ex Alec Rosenblum, Rasmussen, Cato, Herbert McNess and Greg Deleuil.

Michael Drury Certificate (2015).

In Geoff Kellow's estimation, "this is the greatest Penny Red item in private hands".
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Re: What does "Substituted Cliche" on a stamp mean?

Post by blackrom »

Thank you!

Some good reading also.. Thank you!
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Re: What does "Substituted Cliche" on a stamp mean?

Post by Lofty1702 »

Hi There - I note that you say no question is a stupid question so here goes. I'm struggling to understand Substituted Cliche's. I've read through this thread and I now understand WHAT it is but I'm stumped knowing how to identify it. I recently purchase the stamp in image which the seller claims to be IV/35 but I dont know how to tell. Can anyone assist me with a dumbed down explanation please?
SubsCli.jpg
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Re: What does "Substituted Cliche" on an Australian stamp mean?

Post by satsuma »

An interesting position to be in:
"I recently purchase the stamp in image which the seller claims to be IV/35 but I dont know how to tell."

So presumably you bought because you hoped the dealer was correct?

How to tell:
Look at the three circled areas I have added to your image.
2R35 substituted
2R35 substituted
These are the primary identifiers for this substituted cliché. If you checked out the 1d KGV wiki on this page https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=8518&start=300 you'd be able to see what it looked before the substitution took place.

In principle, the collective wisdom of (possibly generations of) stamp collectors and dealers, has identified the original stamp, either through its own particular flaws, or from flaws on adjacent stamps from blocks. Then later, again from comparison with such blocks, it is found that the adjacent stamps (in the case of a single substitution) are unchanged but the particular cliché hasn't had its flaws corrected but has been replaced with another cliché.

There is evidence that sometimes old plates were cannibalised to fix plates in contemporary use; and this may be more common than is recognised, because if the replacement clichés aren't identifiable in themselves there may be no evidence to suggest the substitution.

The ones that are known are identified in specialised catalogues, but there is no way to just look at a stamp and say this is a substituted cliché unless you are familiar with both the before and after printing niceties.

As an aside, there are also substituted monograms and imprints, found in the KGV era.

Assuming your image accurately represent your stamp. I hope you were charged nothing like catalogue value, considering the lack of perforations in the southwest corner.
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Re: What does "Substituted Cliche" on an Australian stamp mean?

Post by Global Administrator »

satsuma wrote: 21 Jul 2022 22:14 An interesting position to be in:
"I recently purchase the stamp in image which the seller claims to be IV/35 but I dont know how to tell."

So presumably you bought because you hoped the dealer was correct?

Yes buying a catalogue which has detailed images and detail of all these issues, is so boring to many!

'Buy First - Cross Fingers later'.

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Re: What does "Substituted Cliche" on a stamp mean?

Post by The Pom »

Lofty1702 wrote: 21 Jul 2022 19:21 Hi There - I note that you say no question is a stupid question so here goes. I'm struggling to understand Substituted Cliche's. I've read through this thread and I now understand WHAT it is but I'm stumped knowing how to identify it. I recently purchase the stamp in image which the seller claims to be IV/35 but I dont know how to tell. Can anyone assist me with a dumbed down explanation please?Image
In view of the condition, I hope it was cheap....
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Re: What does "Substituted Cliche" on an Australian stamp mean?

Post by kerema »

Hi Glen, In over 50 years of collecting and I still have only had a vague idea of the substituted cliche differences. I have most likely read dozens of descriptions which are vague and complicated. Your description on the One Penny red is brief, exact, and easy to understand. You Sir, should you give up stamp dealing, go forth TEACH and share your knowledge to the philatelic world . Well done :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: What does "Substituted Cliche" on an Australian stamp mean?

Post by Lofty1702 »

Hi All - thanks for the feedback. The stamp cost was petty cash - I only bought it to help me identify the substituted cliche. My KGV ACSC catalogue is the 2018 edition and I didn't find it all that helpful with the identification. What I needed was the feedback provided by Kerema highlighting the things to look for. That said, perhaps I should be updating the catalogue. Thanks to you all.
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Re: What does "Substituted Cliche" on an Australian stamp mean?

Post by wrwatson »

Thank you for the illustrated explanation of what a the KGV substituted cliche is. Last week (07/08/222), there was a substituted cliche lot withdrawn from auction with the explanation that this was easy to get wrong. I wasn't so sure about this explanation.
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