Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by ViccyVFU »

lesbootman wrote: 15 Aug 2022 18:46
Rockyman44 wrote: 10 Aug 2022 22:40 So this GB London Mint folder (which I’ve never seen before) with a limited edition of just 499 is not worth selling as it is?

I realise the face value of the stamps is very low, but it’s still a rare item.

Is the market for these “collectibles” really so poor now?
If it had been an official Royal Mail production then it would surprise me if it were not "sought after" in view of it's limited edition status. It looks like a private production though, which makes a big difference.

Even then, it was only the orphan stamp folder, from "a stamp and coin collection".

I showed it here "to set people thinking" about what stamps they might like to stick on their "switchover day" covers.

I know some are planning to use the machin pre-decimal, first decimal and new 2D codes alongside each other, but unless they concentrate on just one or two values, that's going to be "one great honkin' cover" to file!!

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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by steevh »

lesbootman wrote: 15 Aug 2022 18:46
Rockyman44 wrote: 10 Aug 2022 22:40 So this GB London Mint folder (which I’ve never seen before) with a limited edition of just 499 is not worth selling as it is?

I realise the face value of the stamps is very low, but it’s still a rare item.

Is the market for these “collectibles” really so poor now?
If it had been an official Royal Mail production then it would surprise me if it were not "sought after" in view of it's limited edition status. It looks like a private production though, which makes a big difference.
A stamp and coin dealer calling himself London Mint -- providing the actual mint doesn't sue you, its a great trick for producing fake 'official' products to fool the unwary.

The same marketing ploy is still in widespread use, especially for products like Guernsey Platinum Jubilee coins etc etc. You see ads for them on TV and in the national press.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by FairyFoot »

Yay, only a couple of quid left in face value of the older but valid Machin stamps (some regionals) I bought from Philatelink. I don't think I will be doing an exchange!
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

I recently sent my first swap-out form, FREEPOST under £200, covered with a flood of stamps from 10p booklets - 8, 7, 6, 2, 1p and less.

Total 94 stamps, which I stated as £1.93 and they worked out at £1.89. Not a problem.

Doubly not a problem because they sent 45 x 1p barcoded stamps, and 3 x 2nd class. Total £2.49.

The three x 2nd class are worth £2.04, so having pulled off the 1p stamps, they could have put them back and just sent me the three green ones! As it is I am 60p up already!
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by lesbootman »

They have done that with me too. They do direct replacements for current denominations, add up the total value of the stamps where direct replacements are not available and then divide that figure by 68p, rounding up any fraction of 68p. So, if the total of stamps where direct replacements are not available came to anything between £1.37 and £2.04 you'd get three 2nd class stamps.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

I suppose the 1p stamps were replaced by a direct equiavlent and nothing else was; still doesn't make a lot of financial sense..
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by FairyFoot »

Looks quite a piece of art!
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by voneschenbach1 »

I didn't realize they asked you to stick the stamps on paper.... wonder if they will cancel and release as kiloware. I seem to recall seeing a lot of Bundespost CTOs like that when the DM was phased out.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

Gummed ones have to be stuck on, self-adhesive have to be on original backing paper.

And no, I doubt whether that has even occurred to them!
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by voneschenbach1 »

That's a pity - I used to get Scandinavian and Japanese sealed kiloware in the 1990s that used stamps for payment for fee on government forms. Used to be a source of random high value stamp variants rarely used in regular postage.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by FairyFoot »

That's why some of us are using them as postage.... However, was quite surprised to see some of the old-style country definitives in my Philatelink order I did in April. Some of my penpals have been quite surprised too by them.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by lesbootman »

norvic wrote: 19 Aug 2022 00:37 I suppose the 1p stamps were replaced by a direct equiavlent and nothing else was; still doesn't make a lot of financial sense..
Given the training time and processing time Royal Mail are having to pay their staff for (as well as the cost of providing a work space, stationery, return postage etc.), there is not the remotest possibility that exchanging a couple of quids worth of low value Machins is going to make financial sense anyway.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

I was told today by a well-known south of England dealer that they had returned a large quantity of folded booklets - 50p & £1. Those who know them will know that they contain a mix of values, this sort of thing:
1970s Great Britain 50p machine-vended booklets.
1970s Great Britain 50p machine-vended booklets.
As well as some NVI stamps, they received 10,000 x 1p stamps - yes, ten thousand.

I can't believe that somebody checked how many 1p stamps there actually were in the booklets; I suspect that rather than sending out 2nd class, which they would keep for 'straight' swaps, they decided to send 1p stamps for £100-worth of booklets.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by FairyFoot »

I bet their words when seeing what they received, were not, "Oh this is fantastic!"
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by lesbootman »

As this was a dealer there may have been 10,000 x 1p stamps in their selection. It is pretty certain that they had sent in over £200 worth of stamps so they would have needed to breakdown the stamps they sent by denomination and they would have stated how many 1p stamps they were submitting.

Unless the Royal Mail clerk made a mistake and sent them more than they were due!

When the scheme closes, it would be interesting to discover the total value of stamps that have been swapped out.

I was talking to a lady at church yesterday who said she hadn't realised that the old stamps were being invalidated. This was despite me mentioning it to everyone several months ago. I've volunteered to do the swap out for her.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

Yes, that's certainly the way it should have been done, but as they were folded booklets they may just have listed them as x 50p and y £1 & z £2 booklets. If it was my business I wouldn't have wasted manhours counting how many of each value in each booklet.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by lesbootman »

Yes, I recall it being a time consuming and painful exercise counting up the various stamps I submitted on my over £200 form. The things that caused Royal Mail to mess up my submission was their misinterpretation and significant undervaluation of the various "E", Europe/World up to 20g/40g etc stamps.

That was sorted out.

However, if you don't abide by Royal Mail's fairly basic rules for the swap out scheme then you haven't really got much of a leg to stand on when it comes to moaning about the outcome, so long as they have not undervalued the stamps submitted.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by cgm »

I did pull apart some booklets, but none of them were 50p or £1 ones, so it wasn't hard to separate the values.
Didn't exceed the £200 by much, even though I sent nearly 1600 stamps, which would have been a complete pain to stick to under £200 forms.
Will be interesting to see what I get back.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

You wouldn;t have got 1600 stamps on an under £200 form. My count was just shy of 100.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by yellowduck »

FairyFoot wrote: 20 Aug 2022 07:24 I bet their words when seeing what they received, were not, "Oh this is fantastic!"
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by yellowduck »

norvic wrote: 23 Aug 2022 07:39 You wouldn;t have got 1600 stamps on an under £200 form. My count was just shy of 100.
Obviously not 1600 stamps on an A4 sheet (less than that since it's inside the red box).

The previous member did say forms.

I'm sure I've exchanged well over £200 by now, but I've done it one form at a time. Probably a dozen forms by now. My returns have ranged from £7 to £40.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

A reminder to anybody who might be buying stamps on paper at a discount in the hope that they might (re-)use them or trade them on the swapout.

1. Self-adhesive definitives must be on original backing. Although the security ones are most obvious, it is also obvious from the die-cut perforations which easily-soakable ones are SA.

2. Gummed stamps have to be affixed to the back of the under £200 form. And whilst you could probably sneak in a few which have been soaked off in amongst a load of 10p booklets (etc) detached and stuck on, you won;t get away with half a page. And just as you can tell when you get a reused stamp on a letter (even when it's postmarked), it's even easier to tell that they have previously been stuck down when they aren't postmarked.

There have been some such Sales offers here on SB which may still be live, and there are certainly plenty elsewhere. So don't be tempted.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by FairyFoot »

Wonder if anyone was planning to submit a form... but has decided to delay... to see what the KCIII definitives will be like...
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

FairyFoot wrote: 13 Sep 2022 08:12 Wonder if anyone was planning to submit a form... but has decided to delay... to see what the KCIII definitives will be like...
I would say we are unlikely to see the new definitives until next year.

Whilst that won’t make it too late, it’s pushing all your eggs into one bottleneck if you wait.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by lesbootman »

I sent some forms off on Friday, all bar one on behalf of other people.

I did send one off nearly three weeks ago that I haven't had a response to yet.

I concur with Ian that it is unlikely that we'll see Charles III stamps this year. Charles seems rather busy at the moment and it would probably be a bit insensitive to start bothering him with stamp designs to approve at this time.

Who knows though, he's had 50 years plus to prepare for becoming King so maybe he had already got stamp designs done in readiness and consequently 1st and 2nd class denominations could be out within weeks.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by honza »

As previously said most GB Machins are available at less than face value, so the Royal Mail buy-back is a welcome opportunity for a clearout, but has anyone made a list of which ones might be worth hanging on to?
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

honza wrote: 14 Sep 2022 02:39 As previously said most GB Machins are available at less than face value, so the Royal Mail buy-back is a welcome opportunity for a clearout, but has anyone made a list of which ones might be worth hanging on to?
If we did, would we share it with collectors? :lol:

Seriously if anybody needs any X-numbers, i have a good percentage, mostly only a few each though. Just ask.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by lesbootman »

lesbootman wrote: 13 Sep 2022 09:55 I sent some forms off on Friday, all bar one on behalf of other people.

I did send one off nearly three weeks ago that I haven't had a response to yet.

I concur with Ian that it is unlikely that we'll see Charles III stamps this year. Charles seems rather busy at the moment and it would probably be a bit insensitive to start bothering him with stamp designs to approve at this time.

Who knows though, he's had 50 years plus to prepare for becoming King so maybe he had already got stamp designs done in readiness and consequently 1st and 2nd class denominations could be out within weeks.
The swap-out barcoded Machins referred to above arrived today, 23 days after I posted the form off and 2 since I chased them up.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by OldDuffer1 »

There are a lot of "scare" headlines around re. the coming invalidity- many of the general public are now likely to mix this up with the idea that QEII issues might be shortly invalidated! Royal Mail needs a very clear messaging campaign!
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

OldDuffer1 wrote: 16 Sep 2022 23:07 There are a lot of "scare" headlines around re. the coming invalidity- many of the general public are now likely to mix this up with the idea that QEII issues might be shortly invalidated! Royal Mail needs a very clear messaging campaign!
Yes, I've covered that on another thread.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by lesbootman »

I suppose it's a problem when they use slogan cancels to get the message across. There isn't the space to explain things clearly.

In these days of social media one liners it is very easy to be led astray.
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Re: Royal Mail demonitising all non-barcode Machin+Xmas stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

norvic wrote: 01 Apr 2022 19:17
leamphil wrote: 01 Apr 2022 18:16
Global Administrator wrote: 01 Apr 2022 12:50 Demonetise the LOT all on the same day,or actually address the root issue, was the logical way to act, but logic and Royal Mail clearly are contradictions. Ruthlessly suing small post office owners who did absolutely nothing wrong, into bankruptcy and/or suicide, costing them mega millions of quid in legal fees at the same time, is more their speciality. :roll:
In the UK the Post Office (suing small post office owners, sells stamps but has nothing to do with the swap-out scheme) are separate from Royal Mail (responsible for stamps and cancelling them). The Post Office has nothing to do with demonetising machins. Royal Mail has nothing to do with suing small post office owners. I think this has been pointed out a few times before. :roll:

I find it very interesting that there are so few discussions (but not none) here about modern Australian stamps and postal matters. If there were more, the Europeans might spend some time telling Australia how inept it is at all sorts of things.

Well actually, you would not find it 'interesting' at all Ian. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Like the USA, we do not have a Dad's Army polyglot of various WackaDoodle separate and disparate animals handling different aspects of the mail 'experience'. So they can blame each other for all the stuff ups.

USA has 'USPS'. We have 'Australia Post'.

If I mail a letter or parcel I do it at an 'Australia Post' outlet. If a postie delivers a letter he is from 'Australia Post'. If I send a letter it is via 'Australia Post'. If I send a parcel - we do not use 'Parcel Force' - we use 'Australia Post'. All our stamps are designed by 'Australia Post'. ALL tracking - letters, parcels and foreign mail, is done smoothly via the central 'Australia Post' website - not 2 or 3 wackadoodle UK sites. We do not have them relentlessly sending postal agencies into bankruptcy and owner suicides as you do.

We do not have seemingly never ending weekly Union strikes, badly affecting UK mail as you do. We do not half-assed demonetise much of the existing decimal stamps. badly DESTROYING the UK New Issue stamp market forever - they are way too stupid to have predicted that obvious outcome - that even you agree will be the end result.

In fact 'Australia Post' has not demonised anything at all, in our 58 year Decimal era. And you call this system here 'inept'?

'Australia Post' actually manages to cancel most stamps. How archaic. You can politely ask any PO here to hand cancel anything. They all posses a hand cancel device - fancy that leading edge technology! No problems. Why SHOULD it be a problem - only the UK polyglot can tell us.

'NO, I'll toss it into a bag behind me, and someone else MIGHT cancel it somewhere - maybe with a thick marker pen' - typical lazy British pigheaded stoopidity. Each hydra head there blaming each other for dumb policies and outcomes and rules they generally ignore, when it suits them.

So again, actually you would not find our mail system 'interesting' at all. It is rather simple and very boring, as it WORKS quite well overall, given that all of GB would fit into a decent sized cattle station here. Despite the truly vast logistics, like the USA, we do not pay anything near as much to mail a domestic letter as you do - not even close. :twisted:

And this time next year, I can use all current stamps to mail one. :idea:

Maybe THAT is exactly why there are 'so few discussions (but not none) here about Australian .... and postal matters.' They are not perfect for sure, but when I see what your clueless rabble do, we have very little to complain about. 8-)

And you call this system here 'inept'. Get real. Response on the back of a postcard ... oops with all the recent Union strikes - lets not try that! :idea: :idea: :idea:

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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

Gosh, only five months for you to explain how a monopoly works, and compare it with free market operations which a great many countries other than UK now have for their postal operations.

Thanks for the explanation.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by Global Administrator »

Ian - the UK postal system is clearly a confused rabble. Don't tell countries with one central well functioning PO system they are 'inept'.

Rather like the Pope lecturing on the 20 most preferred sexual positions. 8-)

Royal Mail have issued this announcement you yourself posted, to PROVE the totally confused bureaucratic mess they are in:
“Following the notice of Industrial Action by CWU Postal Workers on Friday 30th of September and Saturday 1st October, Royal Mail Stamps and Collectibles has made the difficult decision to cancel our attendance at Stampex International scheduled to run from the 28th September to 1st October at the Business Design Centre in London.

Our Stamps and Collectibles team would like to apologise to all our customers who were hoping to see us at Stampex. Unfortunately, it proved impossible to organise and staff a Royal Mail stand at the show during the strike action.”
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

I've re-examined my comment from 5 months ago, and remember what I was referring to.

Whenever we are discussing UK stamps the posts often wander off-topic to discuss all sorts of other things, not necessarily postal. I think this is what I was getting at when I wroyte:
If there were more (discussions on Australian stamps), the Europeans might spend some time telling Australia how inept it is at all sorts of things.
IE, given more opportunity when the board is discussing Australian stamps Europeans might wander off-topic and discuss things like first nation rights (as an example), just as Australians wander off-topic when discussing our stamps.

No inference that Australia Post was inept in anyway - although I recall the watches debacle, and the yearbook with gummed pages of stamps not available elsewhere. Some would say that was an opportunity, so would say it was inept and likely to destroy collector confidence.

Edit: I've gone back and looked at the original post, from which you selected just a part so that you could rant about various matters associated with the British Postal Service.

What I actually wrote, in full, retracted the comment inept! So well done for picking up on one line.
I find it very interesting that there are so few discussions (but not none) here about modern Australian stamps and postal matters. If there were more, the Europeans might spend some time telling Australia how inept it is at all sorts of things. Well maybe inept isn't the right word because Australia Post is very adept at marketing worthless tat linked to tv and film media - as are Royal Mail, but Australia even more so.

But that's the way it is, a board heavily populated by people interested in modern British stamps and postal matters is bound to generate a lot of discussion.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by David Smitham »

In general I can’t see that the barcoded Machins will be scarce especially with many folks wanting souvenirs of the late queen and also from the massive swap system.

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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

David Smitham wrote: 26 Sep 2022 07:17 In general I can’t see that the barcoded Machins will be scarce especially with many folks wanting souvenirs of the late queen and also from the massive swap system.

David
If KC3 stamps are issued before the end of January I will be surprised, but it would give the opportunity for a triple mix on cover.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by lesbootman »

How soon before issue are special stamps printed I wonder? The ones being issued by Royal Mail this week will have the likeness of the Queen that we are accustomed too.

Are we likely to see special stamps with a likeness of King Charles before we see new definitive stamps?
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

I just answered this on the other thread!
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by lesbootman »

Yes, I thought it was more appropriate to the other thread so I copied it over there.

I sent quite a few swap out forms off between April and July, the responses invariably came back within between 4 and 9 calendar days of me posting them.

I sent one last month which took 23 calendar days and four (one for me and three for other people) this month, which are on 17 calendar days and counting.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by yellowduck »

I saw an article by chance in a local UK newspaper today (the Google search homepage suggested it when I opened the app) that says the swap programme will end 31 March 2023.

The article was full of exaggerated statements and wrong information ("British stamp design hasn't changed since the Penny Black was issued in 1940") but is this detail confirmed?

The article was from The Somerset Apple.

Edit: Link

https://somersetapple.co.uk/news/traditional-postage-stamps- ... e-new-ones
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by yellowduck »

And in case the website disappears, a copy of the text,
Traditional postage stamp’s days are numbered – but will King Charles III’s head be on the new ones?
Posted on: September 26, 2022

THOUSANDS of Royal Mail stamps are set to become obsolete and unusable within months as a new system is introduced.

Britain’s 1st and 2nd class stamps will be unusable from January 2023 as the Royal Mail begins rolling out a new barcode system to replace the traditional stamp system.

Royal Mail will introduce new “reinvented” stamps after a successful trial of the new designs, where a special barcode will be added to the side of the stamp, thus changing the traditional design of British stamps which has remained very much the same since the introduction in 1940 of the Penny Black – the world’s first postage stamp – which simply carried the head of the monarch along with the value.

It was intended for the Queen’s head to remain a main part of the stamp, but following Her Majesty’s recent death it is possible the Royal Mail will take the opportunity to add King Charles III’s head to the new stamps.

Although the new King’s Coronation is unlikely to take place until next year, he has already been proclaimed King and there is a precedent for his head to appear on the nation’s stamps before he is officially crowned.

King Edward VIII’s head appeared on British stamps in 1936, even though he hadn’t been crowned
Back in 1936, following the death of King George V, new stamps were issued bearing the head of King Edward VIII, who abdicated before his Coronation.

Either way, as a sign of the modern times, the new barcode will make it possible to watch videos, messages, and much more information – all available on the Royal Mail App.

The current non-barcoded stamps will be phased out, but will be usable until January 31 2023.

Royal Mail says the barcode will also help to introduce “added security features” and “pave the way for innovative services for our customers”.

To help with the change, Royal Mail is offering a swap system, running until March 31, 2023.

To “Swap Out” you must fill in a form that will appear on the Royal Mail website soon.

Special commemorative stamps are unaffected by the change.

PS: As any philatelist (stamp collector) will tell you, British stamps are the only ones in the world not to be printed with the name of the country. That’s because Britain invented the postage stamp and it appeared before all the later copycat efforts from other nations.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by norvic »

Syndicated story which appears in similar form in many regional papers.

I don't think there is any substance in the March date, I hope not for the Trade!
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by lesbootman »

There will have to come an end to the scheme eventually, Royal Mail would not allow it to drag on indefinitely. Maybe 12 months after it was launched would be about right.

Royal Mail will have other things on their minds right now with another round of strikes looming large.
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Re: Royal Mail demonetising all non-barcode Machin (+ other) stamps

Post by faro »

lesbootman wrote: 28 Sep 2022 18:29There will have to come an end to the scheme eventually, Royal Mail would not allow it to drag on indefinitely. Maybe 12 months after it was launched would be about right.

One small problem for the Royal Mail is that having set a precedent for swaps for stamps to be invalidated there will inevitably be an expectation of the same should they decide to invalidate all other QE2 issues.

Perhaps that will encourage them to "set aside" such self-inflicted grief for a good number of years, if not permanently?

Getting their datamatrix processing up and running asap to counter the new flood of fakes before that becomes overwhelming and damages trust in the system should be far higher on their priority list... (And strikes, too, of course!)
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