Assistance re plating GB QV 1841 1d Red Imperforate stamps?

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Assistance re plating GB QV 1841 1d Red Imperforate stamps?

Post by luke_coolhand »

On the 77 plate stamps I could see 77 written on both sides in the swirlly bits.

I've blown this up and couldn't see any numbers.

Is plating UK stamps complicated, and do you need a lot of expensive/rare plating books?
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Re: How to plate QV 1d red Imp?

Post by Global Administrator »

luke_coolhand wrote:
Is plating UK stamps complicated and do you need a lot of expensive/rare plating books?
For 1d reds, with letters in lower 2 corners only -

YES

and

YES

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Re: How to plate QV 1d red Imp?

Post by OttawaMike »

There's a thread on this subject around here somewhere. I seem to recall an on-line reference....reproductions of book pages, I think. Took a while to download.

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Re: How to plate GB QV 1d red Imperfs?

Post by pertinax »

Luke, your stamp is from plate 68.

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Re: How to plate QV 1d red Imp?

Post by iomoon »

Global Administrator wrote:
luke_coolhand wrote:
Is plating UK stamps complicated and do you need a lot of expensive/rare plating books?
For 1d reds, with letters in lower 2 corners only -

YES

and

YES
Unless, Scott sees it then it's

Yes and No.

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Re: How to plate GB QV 1d red Imperfs?

Post by pertinax »

:lol:

Only most of the time......every now and then a real doozy comes along!


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Re: How to plate GB QV 1d red Imperfs?

Post by iomoon »

I've got a kitchen table full of "doozies", probably won't be able to attack them till after I retire.

The low number plates aren't usually a problem, it's the higher numbers that take more work (usually).

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Re: How to plate GB QV 1d red Imperfs?

Post by pertinax »

The difficult ones are where lots of the same lettering have been removed from the imprimatur sheets.

So the A rows are hard, but much worse than that tends to be stamps lettered IG to IL and JG to JL from the plates after about 110.


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Re: How to plate GB QV 1d red Imperfs?

Post by luke_coolhand »

Thanks very much for the reply but how do you plate them? Is it by the various placement of the letters?
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Re: How to plate GB QV 1d red Imperfs?

Post by iomoon »

Yes, you need to know the position of every single letter combination on every plate.

If, as intimated by Scott, you have images of the imprameturs, it makes identification a little bit easier.

Getting images of the imprimaturs is facilitated by the internet.

Otherwise it would be paying more for the identification books than the stamps.

But if the imprimaturs don't exist you are SOL.

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Re: How to plate GB QV 1d red Imperfs?

Post by pertinax »

Luke, the letter positions are the major thing but there are others that all add up to a positive plate identification.

The main points to plating a stamp are:

1. As has been mentioned, the precise positions of the checkletters within their squares - including whether they are sitting upright or have a tilt.

2. The shape of those letters. The major point here is whether the letters are from Alpahbet 1 or the later Alphabet 2 (these being the only Alphabets we are concerned with if the stamp is imperf). Then beyond that, there are differences within the alphabets - some Ps and some Bs have smaller loops for instance. Some letters have longer serifs, and some letters with 'fully enclosed' areas - such as both P and B - have ink in those areas (blind letters). There are some very distinctive letters from some plates - like the squat S of plate 29 and the squat T of plate 11 - and from some groups of plates - eg the tall F from plates 11 and 30 to 33.

3. The four sides. The left, right, top and bottom borders of the printed design usually can help a lot as any weakness, strength and/or duplication, recutting and recutting that has gone too far and resulted in a frameline that extends into the margin, will all be a constant for stamps printed from that plate.

4. If your stamp is lucky enough to show some of any adjacent stamp - even the tiniest little bit - then this can be invaluable help. Ideally in the plate production, the impressions should have been laid exactly the same distance apart and exactly in line. Yet this just was not the case in the vast majority of plates (indeed there was no real need for this to be so until perforating came along). Impressions can be staggeringly misplaced in relation to each other - too far or too close, too high or too low, too far left and too far right; even not parallel.

5. Any constant mark, such as marks from re-entry/fresh-entry, scratches, dots....the list of possibilities is endless, will quite quickly prove a plating. These marks are sometimes in the margins too.



So let's have look at your stamp again, shown here with the imprimaturs from plates 63 and 68:

Image

Image

Image

Both 63 and 68 have the letters placed very similarly indeed. Despite this, to the trained eye, the letter positions do have slight differences, but we don't actually need to go into that because we can use the other points above to prove your stamp is one and not the other. So using the same numbers as above:

1. Letter positions are extremely close. If anything, one of the Bs has a very slight tilt to the left.

2. Letter shape - both loops of one of the Bs are blind. Both Ps have fairly large loops, though one P looks to be struck into the plate not as heavily as the other.

There's really not much difference between them at this point. The big thing is the blind B, but one needs to be careful about using this as the sole determinant because in some cases this becomes less apparent with plate use - blind letters can become 'open' from plate wear. So:

3. Both stamps have a weak and ill-defined left side. Both stamps have a fairly weak, but slightly stronger right side compared to their left. Both stamps have what I would call normal top lines, and both have basal shifts at the bottom - uneveness of the border directly below the ONE PENNY tablet (note that this doesn't extend beyond this to underneath the letter squares). The strength of this basal shift however, is slightly, yet quite visibly, stronger on one of the stamps.

By now we should have a leaning towards one of the plates. One of them has a B with open loops, and also a baseline that matches our stamp more closely than the other.

4. This is the final thing though that absolutely proves your stamp is plate 68 not 63 - alignment. Your stamp is lucky in having tiny pieces of two other stamps. From this we can see that the stamp above is placed slightly further right than it should be, and the stamp at right is placed slightly lower. This matches the imprimatur that we have 'shortlisted' based on the B and the baseline. The other imprimatur has the stamp above pretty much correctly placed, and the stamp at right is also VERY slightly lower than it should be, but not enough to be a match.

So we have a match with plate 68 (the second of the imprimaturs shown above). But we have icing on the cake:

5. The imprimatur for plate 68 shows a definite lateral margin blur, that is strongest toward the top. Just like your stamp, which is quite a worn print but still shows a good trace of it.


Luke, there is lots written about plating GB penny reds, but if there's one thing I've learned it's that the only way you can ever hope to get good at it is simply by practice, practice, practice. The other thing is that you MUST compare your results with others. I've known collectors who have sat at home for forty years and plated thousands of stamps, then promptly filed them away. How can you be sure they're correct, if you haven't bounced your results off another specialist - at least in the early plating attempts (say the first 500 stamps).


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Re: How to plate GB QV 1d red Imperfs?

Post by luke_coolhand »

Thanks a lot. Really great information and what makes stampboards such an interesting place.
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Re: How to plate GB QV 1d red Imperfs?

Post by skilo54 »

:D A Beautiful Thread! I Love this Site! The Information exchanged between everyone is phenomenal! I am learning so much!

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Re: How to plate GB QV 1d red Imperfs?

Post by Thomasgun »

Hi All,

I am hoping that one of the experts can assist me here with the below scanned stamp. What plate is it from, does the fact that it is on blue paper make any difference. Your comments are welcome and sought after.

Kindest regards

Thomas

Image

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Re: How to plate GB QV 1d red Imperfs?

Post by pertinax »

A very simple one due to the rather distinctive looking checkletter C (tilted and somewhat distorted).

Plate 87.

Blued paper makes really no difference at all to the plate it's from - is found through the entire range of 1d reds from 1841 to about 1857 or so.


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Re: How to plate GB QV 1d red Imperfs?

Post by Thomasgun »

Scott,

Many thanks mate. Any idea of value?

Kindest regards


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Re: How to plate GB QV 1d red Imperfs?

Post by pertinax »

Not a scarce plate - cat £25, worth about £10.

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Help Identifying GB Penny Red QV Imperforate stamp please

Post by librarianc »

I could use some help identifying/plating this Queen Victoria Great Britain Penny Red stamp:

Image

I have been fumbling around with my reference books and am just not sure.

If anyone can help clear this up for me, it will allow me to work backwards with my literature to see what I've been missing.

Thank you for any/all assistance.

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Re: Help Identifying GB Penny Red Please

Post by johnstamps »

Hi librarianc!

I am sure an expert will notice your post and be able to identify which plate your stamp is from.

In the meanwhile I can say it is the stamp we usually call 1d red-brown. 1d reds usually refer to the later ones with plate numbers down the side.

Your stamp was first issued in 1841 to replace the 1d black. 7 of the plates of the 1d black were also used to print stamps in this colour, so it is possible to get matched pairs in black and red-brown.

These early plates usually have a maltese cross cancellation. Yours seems to be cancelled by a Scottish oblong, so is probably later. I think there were over 150 different plates because it was issued over 13 years. Unfortunately the plate number was not engraved on the stamp as was to be the case with the 1d reds. Books have been published, however, which can plate most stamps by the positioning of the corner letters.

I hope this helps and forgive me if I am only repeating what you know,

Cheers,

John

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Re: Help Identifying GB Penny Red Please

Post by librarianc »

Thanks, John! Always pleased to receive a reply and have any info I thought I knew reinforced. I was a bit casual in calling this a Penny Red, wasn't I. :oops:
Shouldn't ask my question in print late at night!!

I did go through a couple reference books I have in my library, but there is something I think I'm missing in trying to properly identify this stamp.......that's why I was hoping for some specific help with plating, then I could go backwards into my references and see what I've missed. The C seems distinctive enough, but I still can't be sure.

I appreciate the response and will keep watching for any other comments.

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Re: Help Identifying GB Penny Red Please

Post by pertinax »

Plate 84, John.
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Re: Help Identifying GB Penny Red Please

Post by David Benson »

John,

I have never heard them called 1d. Red Browns, the colour may be Red Brown but the usual terminology for them is Red.

http://www.imagesoftheworld.org/stamps/pennyred.html

David B.

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Re: Help Identifying GB Penny Red Please

Post by johnstamps »

Hi David!

It's all very strange. Admittedly I have not really been into GB for forty years or more, but then we used to talk about 1d red-browns, 1d red stars and 1d reds (the ones with the plate numbers).

Perhaps different countries or even different parts of the country or different periods use different terminology.

After joining this board I learned that what I had always called charities were called semi-postals in the USA.

Something to ponder.

Cheers

John

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Re: Help Identifying GB Penny Red Please

Post by librarianc »

pertinax wrote:Plate 84, John.
Thank you for this.......now I can go back and do my homework.

Much appreciated.

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Are these GB QV 1d Red imperforates from the Black plates?

Post by Halo »

I have these two penny reds that have been told to be from plate 10.

Altought I am not at all an expert, I can clearly see the first one having a blue paper, while the other (the one with MX cross), seems some kind of natural, old stamp paper, nothing special.

Since I can not rely much on my ability to say something from the MX type (is this from London I or Montrose?), I am asking your help to identify theese two stamps.

Image

Image
ALWAYS interested on:
- Lombardy Venetia first issue (imperf.)
- GB QV Penny black, red and blue (imper.), only DF lettered
- China Dragons (small, large)

Drop me a line if you have some, thanks.

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Re: QV 1d red imperforated (from black plates?)

Post by Allanswood »

I haven't got my Nissens or Litchfield in front of me, but one of these stamps cannot be plate 10!

All you have to do is check the positions of the letters in the lower corners (and now I sound like a broken record) for black plate printed, black or red stamps.

The 2 stamps you show are completely different in the lettering positions.

Top stamp D is low and right, F is left and leaning left.
Bottom stamp D is high and right, F is slightly left and centred.
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Re: QV 1d red imperforated (from black plates?)

Post by pelmen »

I'm not an expert in this area so I'm sure I'll be corrected but it looks to me the top one is plate 8 and the bottom one is either plate 5 or 10.

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Re: QV 1d red imperforated (from black plates?)

Post by Halo »

Anyone else would like to give some tips?
ALWAYS interested on:
- Lombardy Venetia first issue (imperf.)
- GB QV Penny black, red and blue (imper.), only DF lettered
- China Dragons (small, large)

Drop me a line if you have some, thanks.

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Re: Are these GB QV 1d Red imperforates from the Black plate

Post by pertinax »

I have two lots of bad news and one lot of good news for you, Halo.

Bad news 1, is that neither stamp is plate 10.

Bad news 2, is that the top stamp has Alphabet 2 checkletters, meaning that really it couldn't be further away from plate 10 unless it had perforations! It's from plate 134.

The good news is the second stamp is actually from plate 1b!! Congratulations. :D


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Re: Are these GB QV 1d Red imperforates from the Black plate

Post by pertinax »

....so yes, it is from a black plate, but the scarcest one of the lot.
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Re: Are these GB QV 1d Red imperforates from the Black plate

Post by admin »

Great find .... nice work from Pertinax. :)
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Re: Are these GB QV 1d Red imperforates from the Black plate

Post by Lundy »

I hope you dont mind Halo,

but i wondered if anybody could tell me if this is from one of the black plates?

I ask as it is a nice (for me) copy and i would love to be able to tick it off as SG7 in my collection and i currently am not ready to specialise in these issues.

Thanks for your help.

Lundy :D

Image

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Re: Are these GB QV 1d Red imperforates from the Black plate

Post by Halo »

Lundy, this forum is not mine so feel free to ask what you want!:)

Pertinax, or shall I say Master Pertinax!

Thanks a lot for your precious informations.

Now, taking also Lundy request in consideration, could you please detail why we can say this or that regarding not being black plates?

Because I've readed about the blueing of paper, and since what you written, I think I don't have got it properly, so far...

Thanks again in advance!
ALWAYS interested on:
- Lombardy Venetia first issue (imperf.)
- GB QV Penny black, red and blue (imper.), only DF lettered
- China Dragons (small, large)

Drop me a line if you have some, thanks.

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Re: Are these GB QV 1d Red imperforates from the Black plate

Post by Allanswood »

Try reading my earlier post. :(

And the blued paper has nothing to do with it.
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Re: Are these GB QV 1d Red imperforates from the Black plate

Post by iomoon »

Halo,

generally speaking if it has an MX it is usually (but not necessarily) less than about plate 36.

The blue colored paper does not help very much in distinguishing plate number.

Congrats on the 1b, only 6,000 sheets with this stamp printed, I'm missing it.

Lundy,

the key things to identify your stamp are the horizontal line in the "O"square, the vertical line in the "A" square, plus the very weak NE corner square.

Without consulting my plating books, it is not a black plate but rather in the 20's to 30's, but Scott has far more experience and can do it far quicker than I.

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Re: Are these GB QV 1d Red imperforates from the Black plate

Post by pertinax »

Lundy wrote:I hope you dont mind Halo,

but i wondered if anybody could tell me if this is from one of the black plates?

I ask as it is a nice (for me) copy and i would love to be able to tick it off as SG7 in my collection and i currently am not ready to specialise in these issues.

Thanks for your help.

Lundy :D

Image
Sorry, but it's an SG8.

The first thing I see on this stamp is the completely open top of the right star. This screams plate 26 or 27 - and 27 it is!


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Re: Are these GB QV 1d Red imperforates from the Black plate

Post by admin »

Scott is the horizontal line at left box, and double frame line on RH letter box constant?

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Re: Are these GB QV 1d Red imperforates from the Black plate

Post by pertinax »

admin wrote:Scott is the horizontal line at left box, and double frame line on RH letter box constant?
Yes.

They're guidelines - see the vertical one is also visible in the top right square?


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Re: Are these GB QV 1d Red imperforates from the Black plate

Post by admin »

So those are listed in SG spec?

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Re: Are these GB QV 1d Red imperforates from the Black plate

Post by Lundy »

Thanks All,

So at least i can confirm i have a SG8 and even more identification as Plate 27!

Thanks Scott, I started another thread showing some postal scraps i have and amongst them is a damaged penny red with maltese cross on cover, I will make a close up of the stamp, but would be grateful if you could have a look at that too- hope that is not cheeky! :)

Lundy :D

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Re: Are these GB QV 1d Red imperforates from the Black plate

Post by pertinax »

admin wrote:So those are listed in SG spec?
Not specifically, no.

Listed in the general section, but not under the plate 27 listings.

They are considered more plating characteristics, than constant varieties.


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Re: Are these GB QV 1d Red imperforates from the Black plate

Post by Halo »

Thanks Allans and everyone. I got that plating is a matter of letter positioning but also the cancel can help. Can anyone say something about thoose cancels please?
What about shades of the 3 stamps?
ALWAYS interested on:
- Lombardy Venetia first issue (imperf.)
- GB QV Penny black, red and blue (imper.), only DF lettered
- China Dragons (small, large)

Drop me a line if you have some, thanks.

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Re: Are these GB QV 1d Red imperforates from the Black plate

Post by iomoon »

Halo,

the MX was in use from 1840 till 1844.

Red ink was used till February of 1841 when it was replaced by black ink.

All of the penny blacks were issued between May of 1840 and January of 1841 so the early have red crosses. However all of the blacks were issued at least till near the end of 1841, so all can have black MX's.

Plate 12, a penny red, was introduced at the same approximate time as the introduction of black ink in February of 1841. Therefore a penny red with a red MX is almost invariably from a black plate.

I collect Volcanos on stamps

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Halo
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Re: Are these GB QV 1d Red imperforates from the Black plate

Post by Halo »

The one from plate 1b has a typical NE of ONE linked (variety g);
the 134 one, has a lavender tinted paper (variety k).

Am I wrong?

Still can't figure out wich MX cross is the one on 1b...
ALWAYS interested on:
- Lombardy Venetia first issue (imperf.)
- GB QV Penny black, red and blue (imper.), only DF lettered
- China Dragons (small, large)

Drop me a line if you have some, thanks.

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pertinax
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Re: Are these GB QV 1d Red imperforates from the Black plate

Post by pertinax »

Halo wrote:The one from plate 1b has a typical NE of ONE linked (variety g);
the 134 one, has a lavender tinted paper (variety k).


Yes on the former. No on the latter - ordinary paper.


Scott
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librarianc
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Re: Help Identifying GB Penny Red Please

Post by librarianc »

I have another that I have a few questions about.........

Image

back view:

Image

and watermark:

Image

Question is whether this is a trimmed perf copy or not........seems to be possible based on left margin. Can anyone identify which plate this would be and/or help with a catalogue number (if that is even possible from my sketchy description)???

John A
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pertinax
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Re: Help Identifying GB Penny Red Please

Post by pertinax »

SG 8 plate 51.

Definitely not trimmed, John.


Scott
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Re: Help Identifying GB Penny Red Please

Post by librarianc »

Scott:

Thank you again for your quick reply. :wink:

I know this may sound odd, but I was almost hoping it was trimmed, just so the damaged left side could be justified.... :roll:

John A
Armstrong'sStamps**http://www.armstrongsstamps.ca
Canada Errors, Freaks and Oddities (EFO) - Knowledge is Key.....Libraries work!

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Help Please with plating of GB penny red ?

Post by vikingeck »

Hi I have just found two cracking ivory heads, the best I have ever seen on penny reds, Can anyone assist with plating?

I'd love it if they were from Black plates but have not the expertise.

The first one :

ImageImage
whatever it is -------it's better than a poke in eye with a wet umbrella !

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pertinax
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Re: Help Please with plating of GB penny red ?

Post by pertinax »

Appears to be plate 27.

I could be certain if a larger image was posted - at 600dpi.


Scott
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