Show your Australia Pre-Decimal stamps on Commercial Covers

samkelly · Post by **samkelly** » 07 Dec 2009 16:00

Tim (Didge) has a great thread going 'Australia - Decimal Commercial Covers'; the resulting imagery that has emerged is exciting.

So lets see them, what are your favorite Pre-decimal stamp covers, and if you have the inkling, tell us why it rattles your marbles.

Time to put some up. Purchased these 8 days ago in the U.S. with a bunch of other covers. The Food cover in my B&W at 100 Dollars (page 8/24).

Marked as a FDC, for the purists out there who want to say its not postally(commercially) used because it's FDC, don't bother.

The other I payed a grand total of 25 dollars.

Anyone getting it yet

, DO NOT buy from the country you collect

Sam

norvic · Post by **norvic** » 18 Jan 2010 04:13

Found this one used just after Christmas with nice RAAF recruiting slogan:

PeterS · Post by **PeterS** » 20 Jan 2010 10:15

Nice usage Adelaide to USA, Registered Airmail. Rate made up of 3d for foreign letter rate, 3d for registration and 3d for airmail.

PeterS · Post by **PeterS** » 20 Jan 2010 10:17

Standard letter to USA, foreign letter rate of 3d. Shows that 3d Airmail stamp was for ordinary use, not just to pay the airmail fee.

PeterS · Post by **PeterS** » 20 Jan 2010 10:24

Example of 1d universal rate to Empire and Commonwealth, to Canada, using 1d Kangaroo perforated OS. A wartime cover that has been censored (PASSED handstamp). The same letter to the USA would have been 2d postage (foreign rate).

PeterS · Post by **PeterS** » 20 Jan 2010 10:32

1916 usage of 2½d Kangaroo to USA, foreign rate of 2d and war tax of ½d. Interestingly, not censored (although it should have been).

PeterS · Post by **PeterS** » 20 Jan 2010 10:36

Another way of paying the foreign rate plus the war tax. 2d Kangaroo and ½d George V, to USA. Again, not censored.

norvic · Post by **norvic** » 20 Jan 2010 20:13

PeterS wrote:Nice usage Adelaide to USA, Registered Airmail. Rate made up of 3d for foreign letter rate, 3d for registration and 3d for airmail.

Also carries the 'Posted under cover' cachet - so where did it start from, and why was it reposted at Adelaide ?

traralgon3844 · Post by **traralgon3844** » 20 Jan 2010 20:41

Censorship must have been optional back then.

This cover must have been heavy.

mickeyfinn · Post by **mickeyfinn** » 20 Jan 2010 21:47

RE: "1916 usage of 2½d Kangaroo to USA, foreign rate of 2d and war tax of ½d. Interestingly, not censored (although it should have been)" and "Another way of paying the foreign rate plus the war tax. 2d Kangaroo and ½d George V, to USA. Again, not censored." (see above)

The rate for up to ½oz. to the USA during this period (i.e. 1915/16) was 2½d. War Tax on postage was not introduced in Australia until 28th October 1918.

PeterS · Post by **PeterS** » 21 Jan 2010 06:33

norvic wrote:
PeterS wrote:Nice usage Adelaide to USA, Registered Airmail. Rate made up of 3d for foreign letter rate, 3d for registration and 3d for airmail.

Also carries the 'Posted under cover' cachet - so where did it start from, and why was it reposted at Adelaide ?

Ian, at a guess it started somwhere in country South Australia. The airmail fee is for domestic airmail only, there being no airmail to USA at that time. Perhaps the letter was picked up at an outstation and the postage and so forth applied in Adelaide.

There are still many places in Australia where the mail is transorted by light aircraft on a regular basis and sacks are picked up and left in places like 44 gallon drums at the side of a dirt runway. There would be no cancellations on the letters being picked up (and, these days, probably none when they were delivered either, but that is another story!).

PeterS · Post by **PeterS** » 21 Jan 2010 06:35

mickeyfinn wrote:RE: "1916 usage of 2½d Kangaroo to USA, foreign rate of 2d and war tax of ½d. Interestingly, not censored (although it should have been)" and "Another way of paying the foreign rate plus the war tax. 2d Kangaroo and ½d George V, to USA. Again, not censored." (see above)

The rate for up to ½oz. to the USA during this period (i.e. 1915/16) was 2½d. War Tax on postage was not introduced in Australia until 28th October 1918.

Yep, you are correct. Forgot the war tax came in less than 2 weeks before teh war ended!

norvic · Post by **norvic** » 21 Jan 2010 07:28

PeterS wrote:
norvic wrote:
PeterS wrote:Nice usage Adelaide to USA, Registered Airmail. Rate made up of 3d for foreign letter rate, 3d for registration and 3d for airmail.

Also carries the 'Posted under cover' cachet - so where did it start from, and why was it reposted at Adelaide ?
Ian, at a guess it started somwhere in country South Australia.

Peter, the manuscript in the rubber stamp should provide a clue. Looking at it again, it looks like U S A .

The point of the rubber stamp, if you had the same rules as we had then, was that any item sent to another PO for reposting should have been marked 'Posted at _________ under cover to the postmaster at [Adelaide]'. The purpose of this was to indicate the original place of posting - which apart from anything else precludes the PO from providing an alibi for the sender (who wasn't in Adelaide on the date shown).

Predominently this happened with mail reposted in the same country, but it could also be applied to mail received from abroad, and might just indicate that this is more contrived than it seems.

PeterS · Post by **PeterS** » 21 Jan 2010 07:46

Ian, I will have a look at the cover tonight. However, I do not think it was sent from the USA to Adelaide to be posted back to the USA. For one thing, there would be no airmail fee payable as airmail between USA and Australia did not exist at that time.

I can't remember whether there are any arrival markings on the reverse. Although, given it is a registered item, there probably are.

Diver Pete · Post by **Diver Pete** » 21 Jan 2010 08:14

PeterS wrote:Nice usage Adelaide to USA, Registered Airmail. Rate made up of 3d for foreign letter rate, 3d for registration and 3d for airmail.

Pete,

I think this one was posted under cover so that it could be returned by the 2nd June, 1929 via first airmail Adelaide to Perth (AAMC 136).

Nice little item!

Peter

norvic · Post by **norvic** » 21 Jan 2010 09:07

PeterS wrote:Ian, I will have a look at the cover tonight. However, I do not think it was sent from the USA to Adelaide to be posted back to the USA. For one thing, there would be no airmail fee payable as airmail between USA and Australia did not exist at that time.

But it is posted in Adelaide and is addressed to USA...
and you described it as ...

PeterS wrote:Nice usage Adelaide to USA, Registered Airmail. Rate made up of 3d for foreign letter rate, 3d for registration and 3d for airmail.

In theory wherever it was sent from under cover to Adelaide to be reposted it would have that rubber stamp. It wouldn't have any other markings (except maybe a sender's address on the back?)

But maybe as Peter says, airmail was just Air Adelaide to Perth. (Shame there are no endorsements of that on the cover.)

PeterS · Post by **PeterS** » 21 Jan 2010 09:24

norvic wrote:
PeterS wrote:Ian, I will have a look at the cover tonight. However, I do not think it was sent from the USA to Adelaide to be posted back to the USA. For one thing, there would be no airmail fee payable as airmail between USA and Australia did not exist at that time.
But it is posted in Adelaide and is addressed to USA...
and you described it as ...
PeterS wrote:Nice usage Adelaide to USA, Registered Airmail. Rate made up of 3d for foreign letter rate, 3d for registration and 3d for airmail.
In theory wherever it was sent from under cover to Adelaide to be reposted it would have that rubber stamp. It wouldn't have any other markings (except maybe a sender's address on the back?)

But maybe as Peter says, airmail was just Air Adelaide to Perth. (Shame there are no endorsements of that on the cover.)

I struggle to understand why an envelope, addressed to USA, would be sent via airmail to Perth (a couple of thousand kms the wrong way)?

I am not sure of the status of any airmail service from Adelaide to Sydney (or Melbourne) that might account for the domestic airmail fee, before the letter was put on board ship for the USA.

Anyway, I guess we will never know (unless there is something on the reverse that I have forgotten - not an impossible occurrence!).

reddog · Post by **reddog** » 26 Jan 2010 10:51

This one's pretty basic but the 50's 2/- commemoratives are not that common on cover apparently.

Mark.

Didge · Post by **Didge** » 26 Jan 2010 11:09

Sam,

Nice post mate. Love the 5/- Arms. They are one of my personal favourites. I will have to get out the pre-decimal covers and add a few here.

Reddog,

Yes the 2/- and 2/3d Commemoratives are quite rare. Nice 2/- Olympics cover.

Tim

davo · Post by **davo** » 27 Jan 2010 16:04

These pieces were cut from covers posted to the Public Trustee in the late 40's and the early 50's. I know this as there were about 500 or so and almost all had the stamps cut off (a bagfull of pieces) about a dozen survived intact.

Very late usage, 40 years for the Tasmanian 2d and 20 years for the Bridge.

Then, 20 years for the Bridge again and 20 for the 1½d.

As I know the source I can say they are both genuine commercial use.

mstary1 · Post by **mstary1** » 27 Jan 2010 17:48

Didge wrote:Sam,

Nice post mate. Love the 5/- Arms. They are one of my personal favourites. I will have to get out the pre-decimal covers and add a few here.

Reddog,

Yes the 2/- and 2/3d Commemoratives are quite rare. Nice 2/- Olympics cover.

Tim

But still available on Ebay and at cheap prices. I have picked up all the 2/ and 2/3 comms on ebay for under $10 each.
maybe I'm lucky?

lithograving · Post by **lithograving** » 07 Feb 2010 08:33

Just picked this up from a local dealer.If the sender hadn't written First Day of issue on the cover, would it then be commercial?

Perhaps someone could inform me whether 8 1/2p was the proper rate for surface mail to Chile ?
Also it was backstamped twice, 7-XI-50 and 9NOV.50 which means it took almost 3 months to get from Australia to South America, isn't that a long time, even for a slooooow boat?

traralgon3844 · Post by **traralgon3844** » 21 Apr 2010 18:49

A nice solo use of the 1/ 6d Federation Jubilee.

plsllvn · Post by **plsllvn** » 22 Apr 2010 03:16

Here is a couple of covers
Paul

traralgon3844 · Post by **traralgon3844** » 03 May 2010 23:27

The Forces Letter Rate was the only legitimate single use for this one.

manfaefife · Post by **manfaefife** » 22 Jun 2010 18:18

Nice little cover to Switzerland though the envelope has seen too much sun. Would this be the correct rate at this time ?

PeterS · Post by **PeterS** » 23 Jun 2010 07:36

The 2/- Airmail stamp was issued precisely for this rate, if memory serves.

cmsau · Post by **cmsau** » 09 Aug 2010 02:41

Something that I found today

2 x 5d QEII 1960 booklet stamps on an aerogramme

Johnson

norvic · Post by **norvic** » 09 Aug 2010 03:10

This one struck me as heavily prepaid - can't make out the date but from the parts of the figures showing I would say 1958? It's sealed, and the damage to the edges might suggest a thicker-than-basic wodge of paper enclosed.

The Pom · Post by **The Pom** » 09 Aug 2010 03:27

I picked this up recently. Is 3½d the right rate to Austria? The cover is dated 14 DEC 1926 and the stamps are all single crown wmk.

PeterS · Post by **PeterS** » 09 Aug 2010 07:54

Chris, I would have said 3d was the correct rate..at work so can't check the ACSC, not sure if the halfpenny war tax was still applying in 1926.

Edit: No, now that I think about it, the war tax had been abolished by then and the letter rate increased at the same time. On the face of it, this looks overpaid. Maybe they added the Late Fee, thinking it would be late getting to the PO?

The Pom · Post by **The Pom** » 09 Aug 2010 08:02

I just checked my ACSC (don't know why I didn't look there in the first place) and 3d was the correct rate.

Brads64 · Post by **Brads64** » 06 Jan 2011 17:05

Hi All,
Wasn't sure if anybody had noticed this one that went on ebay in Nov 2010

It went for US$617.50

With the following description.
1913(26th July) Large(225mmx100mm=8 3/4ins x 4ins)Commercial Registered cover with mixed combination franking of Queensland 6d adhesive and Australia 1d 'roo adhesive tied by two strikes of blue 'Registered/Brisbane' cds used to Scotland,paying 3d registration and 4d quadruple surface rate to UK. Apart from a few creases,cover is in fine condition. Commercial Registered covers with mixed State/Commonwealth franking in the correct period (Ref.3) are particularly rare.
The Commonwealth of Australia came into being on the 1st January 1901. However Australian stamps were not issued until January 2nd 1913(apart from the postage dues) and State stamps were allowed to be used in conjunction with them.Commercially this situation only lasted for a couple of years.Covers outside of this timeframe are regarded as philatelic(Ref 3).The cover is within the correct historical timeframe of this important part of Australian postal history(Refs1&2).

Item Reference 7819.
Book Ref.1 The Early Federal Period 1901 to 1912-13 Australian Post Office;Book Ref.2 ACSC 'Kangaroos and The Early Federal Period,1901-1912' Edited by Dr. G.Kellow RDP and published by Brusden White;Book Ref.3 Various inspirational 'Woodchip Free Zone' articles by Rod Perry in 'Stamp News Australasia' 2003-Current Editor Kevin Morgan.
Provenance:- Twickenham Postcard Fair 2006
No Reserve
Guess it pays to do your homework first when selling

Cheers tracy

Brads64 · Post by **Brads64** » 06 Jan 2011 17:14

Hi All,

Here's a few others I've noticed in an ongoing auction.
Pictures were hard to get so I'll apologize for them now.

Also Queensland #116 (2), Tied by red Brisbane Reg'd 8 Nov 1913 CDS's on cover to Walpole, NH. Has San Francisco purple Reg'd b/s. Nice transitional era franking
EST US$90

1 (Pair), Also Victoria 218, 232, Tied by Melbourne 1913 cancels on cover to Cambridge, Mass. Redirected to Baltimore and then to Walpole, NH. Nice transitional franking. F, torn flap. EST US$75

144 (2), 147, Tied by Darwin 12 Dec 1934 CDS's on cover to Harvard University, USA. Flown by Airmail to London (with red jusqu'au marking over Airmail label)
EST US$45

Would the last one be considered Philatelic?

Cheers Tracy

Philanthropist · Post by **Philanthropist** » 06 Jan 2011 18:03

Brads64,
Consider AAMC 470, First flight of the regular air services to England left Brisbane on the 10th December, 1934 and did land at Darwin.
Regards

Brads64 · Post by **Brads64** » 06 Jan 2011 19:08

Philanthropist wrote:Brads64,
Consider AAMC 470, First flight of the regular air services to England left Brisbane on the 10th December, 1934 and did land at Darwin.
Regards

Cheers! information greatfully recieved.

Tracy

Mike · Post by **Mike** » 25 Jan 2011 20:02

This is one I have only just got for my collection.

Mike · Post by **Mike** » 25 Jan 2011 20:49

Here is a couple more.

Official with OS perfin.
3 1/2d Outback Mail Carrier.
Last one has not been canceled

norvic · Post by **norvic** » 25 Jan 2011 22:38

Mike wrote:Here is a couple more.

Official with OS perfin.

The OS perfin has been added later - it has a machine slogan postmark and isn't tied to the cover; it's placed over a black postmark which probably tells a story. Lift it and find the story!

It's a commercial cover from A J Fisher in Brisbane, franked (in red of course) to show payment, and delivered presumably to Mr & Mrs Green. The backstamps are part of the story, and the rest is under than rogue perfin.

Mike · Post by **Mike** » 25 Jan 2011 23:01

Yes I have never notice that .I bought it years ago
from deceased estate then filed it away.
I have never looked at it.

I only got it out for this thread.
I wonder when they put that stamp on it
and wrote Official. It must been done a long time ago.

Thanks for pointing that out to me.

norvic · Post by **norvic** » 25 Jan 2011 23:55

Have a look at this thread http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=11316&start=0&hilit=blue

What's the betting a collector sometime used your envelope to store his 'Official' stamps in?

Mike · Post by **Mike** » 26 Jan 2011 00:12

Yes I remember buying this from deceased estate in Tasmania
and there was a lot of envelopes with stamps in it.

He must of written Official and put stamp on it with
OS Perfin. I remember there was a hundreds of KGV stamps.

I think you are 100% right with that theory.
Thanks.

The first cover Aust Armed Force I only got it today.
I think it looks nice but would there be plenty of these.

samkelly · Post by **samkelly** » 26 Jan 2011 06:24

"Inactive image - Link deleted by Moderator"

Australia 3d Sydney Harbor Bridge 1932 Sydney, N.S.W. to Honolulu, Hawaii.

PeterS · Post by **PeterS** » 26 Jan 2011 17:31

Mike wrote:Yes I remember buying this from deceased estate in Tasmania
and there was a lot of envelopes with stamps in it.

He must of written Official and put stamp on it with
OS Perfin. I remember there was a hundreds of KGV stamps.

I think you are 100% right with that theory.
Thanks.

The first cover Aust Armed Force I only got it today.
I think it looks nice but would there be plenty of these.

Not too many with Censor marks, especially the 9 dots of Newcastle.

Mike · Post by **Mike** » 26 Jan 2011 23:06

Thanks Peter.

Might be silly question but what do you mean
by 9 dots of Newcastle.

I paid $13 for it so I was happy with it.

PeterS · Post by **PeterS** » 27 Jan 2011 06:19

Mike, have a look at the censor tape used to reseal the envelope after it was opened for Civilian Censor inspection. It as a row of dots under the words, 9 in fact. The use of dots was replaced relatively quickly by the use of numerals instead. So, although it philatelic in that it is a First Day Cover, it does have the added interest of having been through the mails (and opened to ensure the sender wasn't a German agent or telling those neutral Americans any secrets).

samkelly · Post by **samkelly** » 27 Jan 2011 06:26

I have seen some with 'Not Opened By Censor", do you know why some were exempt.

Sam

PeterS · Post by **PeterS** » 27 Jan 2011 06:41

samkelly wrote:I have seen some with 'Not Opened By Censor", do you know why some were exempt.

Sam

Sam, not sure of teh intricacies. I have seen some where the addressee was probably the reason (US Gov't Department was one I seem to remember). The overwhelming majority, however, were opened. This was especially the case after the war in teh Pacific broke out.

Have a look at this thread for more discussion on Censored covers. http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8120

torstenweller · Post by **torstenweller** » 28 Jan 2011 15:48

Our next Postal History Auction #6 is now online for viewing and bidding at
https://www.torstenweller.com/auctions
featuring Australian pre-decimal commercial covers such as -

Australia 1965 surface mail to Holland with 8d ANZAC single

norvic · Post by **norvic** » 29 Jan 2011 08:05

This one is marked 'First Day Cover', but if that had been by the sender it might have been typed as is the address. Might it have been the recipient, or a later collector. Nice clear Box Hill postmark.

Philatelic, or commercial?