GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

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Lundy
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GB 1840 "Penny Black" - Plate Number help needed please!

Post by Lundy »

Hi all,

I acquired these penny blacks a few months ago with some other bits I wanted, but have to admit for some reason i have no interest in early GB (bizarre as I cant help taking an interest in nearly every other country in the world!!) therefore I think I will sell them.

Following seeing another topic talking about the plate making a massive difference in their value i wondered if somebody could let me know what plate these are.

The last one is in a folder with an 1841 2d blue and has a certificate of authenticity from Stephen R Allen (The Westminster Collection) I imagine it had a high original cost but doubt it is worth anything like as much now.

Any help is very much appreciated,

John

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Last edited by Lundy on 19 Dec 2008 22:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by iomoon »

John,

some of the key points in the identification of the penny black plate numbers are the two stars in the upper corners, the shape of the 0 in "one", and the orientation and position of the letters at the base.

It is almost impossible to identify a plate from a photograph, you need to scan the stamps to get a much clearer view.

The EI stamp has minimal value with the top margin missing. The others appear to be quite nice at low resolution.

I collect Volcanos on stamps

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Post by Lundy »

Thanks Iomoon,

i hope to get a digital microscope soon so may have to wait till then, as i dont have a scanner. At least i know now which are the key areas to highlight for next time, they were "bonuses" in what i bought so i guess any return on them is a good thing

John

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Post by tallanent »

John

As stated ... not easy from those pictures .. scans would be better. That said I will stick my neck out and take a stab at them (I am sure if I make a big gaff Scott will put me right)

PD .. plate 3
JK .. plate 1A
EI .. plate 4

hope this helps .. ALLAN

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Post by Peteski76 »

Hi John,

I'm always looking fo a PD (my initials) penny black at the right price, let me know if you decide to sell..

Peter

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Post by sherro »

And I'd be interested in the JK, which has absolutely nothing to do with my initials!
Always looking for KGV British Commonwealth, mint, used, covers, anything

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Post by PennyBlack1840 »

JK is a visually nice example.

Westminster Collection have sold 'en masse' over here to the Sunday colour supplement market who will have paid well for their stamps, nice presentation folder though!

Peter

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Post by pertinax »

JK is plate 5.
EI is plate 4.

PD is one where I need a scan not a photo. It appears to be either 2, 6 or 7.

Scott

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Post by tallanent »

Scott .....

Well I got one out of three right ..

Theres hope yet ..

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Post by pertinax »

lol.

I meant to say that on plate 3 all the Ps have a small loop, and the PD stamp here definitely doesn't have it.

Scott

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Post by Lundy »

Thanks Scott for the information, will invest in a better device for images shortly,
Sherro and Peter sorry for not getting back to you, will dig those 2 penny blacks out and check they are ok on the back and get back to you

John

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Penny Black Plating

Post by StampStudy »

Hi,

After my new found love of plating penny blacks - anyone confirm that this is Plate 5.

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StampStudy

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Post by admin »

That is the so called Barrister Plate -- the QC. ;)
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Post by iomoon »

Without having the stamp in front of me to plate, Plate 5 looks good to me.

I collect Volcanos on stamps

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Post by tallanent »

I agree ... plate 5

Line in the left margin close to the top left corner square and slight bulge below the O of ONE on the base line

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Post by pertinax »

Agreed.

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Post by tallanent »

pertinax wrote:Agreed.
I am so glad about that Scott ... after the recent errors I was starting to wonder where I was going wrong ...

ALLAN

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Post by Kaygeevee »

Hi all,

I was wondering if one of the experts could plate this 1d black for me?.

Image

It's on a Jan. 1841 cover.

Best regards David :)
Last edited by Kaygeevee on 20 Dec 2008 10:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by tallanent »

Kaygeevee

I think this may be from plate 6
Image
Your image is shown above with the plate 6 from the Nissen photographs - the arrow showing the possition of the dot to the left of the check letter 'H'

ALLAN
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Post by pertinax »

Plate 6 looks good to me too.

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Post by Kaygeevee »

Thank you tallanent & pertinax for your prompt replies.

Best regards David :)

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Penny Black Plating question.

Post by StampStudy »

Can anyone confirm the plate # of this penny black -- I think plate 7.

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Thanks in advance

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Re: Penny Black Plating question.

Post by Tas Philatelist »

Stampstudy, a MUCH bigger scan will be needed.

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Re: Penny Black Plating question.

Post by StampStudy »

Unfortunately I dont have the stamp with me at the moment. Will see if i can get an image come Monday.

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Re: Penny Black Plating question.

Post by PennyBlack1840 »

Yes - plate 7 confirmed although corner lettering more immediately suggested 1A. Bottom frame line extending (just) into right margin plus other factors mean of the two it has to be Plate 7.

Peter

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Plating Penny Blacks, Which ref books are best for novices

Post by parryone »

Occasionally i have seen on ebay a couple of books, One called "Guidelines to the Penny Blacks",
and the other one "Plating Penny Blacks".
I have yet to manage to win a copy of either books ,
but in serious preparation to owning one of these books, I would like to ask which one book
(or books) would stampboarders suggest would be best for a novice to tackle?

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Re: Plating Penny Blacks, Which ref books are best for novices

Post by Greg Ioannou »

Nissan's Plating of the Penny Black is the one to own. Make sure it comes with the photo plates, which come separately -- the book is useless without the plates. It will likely cost you $400 to $1,000, and is hard to find for under about $700. (I know I saw the plate images online somewhere. Anyone?)

The other one I use is Litchfield's Guide Lines to the Penny Black. It's a much cheaper book, and easier to find. I find the books have a lot of different details from what you'll find in Nissan. What I do when plating is plate using Nissan, then check myself using Litchfield. It should cost you about $50.

But if you buy only one, definitely Nissan, if you can afford it.

Greg

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Re: Can someone please plate this penny black?

Post by Greg Ioannou »

Difficult one. I think it is plate 1B. But I'd like someone else to check it too because I'm not certain.

Greg

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Re: Can someone please plate this penny black?

Post by Marcophily »

How a plate number of penny blacks can be found? Can you give me a link? Thank you!

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Re: Can someone please plate this penny black?

Post by Greg Ioannou »

I used two reference books: P. C. Litchfield's Guide Lines to the Penny Black; and Charles Nissen's The Plating of the Penny Black Postage Stamp of Great Britain, 1840.

Litchfield is easy to find and inexpensive. Nissen is not so easy to find and not so inexpensive.

I'm not aware of a website that gives sufficient detail to plate penny blacks reliably.

Greg

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Re: Can someone please plate this penny black?

Post by admin »

A lot of it is just sheer experience.

Greg's books mentioned are one good start point.

And our member Pertinax is a whizz on these things. :mrgreen:

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Re: Can someone please plate this penny black?

Post by Greg Ioannou »

admin wrote:A lot of it is just sheer experience.

Greg's books mentioned are one good start point.
Exactly right. Even with the best reference books, I'm often only able to offer an educated guess on the plate numbers when confronted with a difficult one like this. I'm pretty sure I'm right, but...

I may have the right books, but I only have to plate a handful of blacks most years, so I don't have enough practice and experience at doing them.

I'm curious to see what one of the experts in the field says about this one.

Greg

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Help with GB 'Penny Black' plate number needed

Post by plsllvn »

Can anyone help with identifying the plate number?

Thanks
Paul

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Re: Help with Penny Black needed

Post by ikanek »

I am no expert on plating of The penny black, but according to the positions of letters HC I think this is from plate 6.
This is confirmed not only by placement of letters HC but also by guideline in corner with C letter.

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Re: Help with Penny Black needed

Post by plsllvn »

ikanek wrote:I am no expert on plating of The penny black, but according to the positions of letters HC I think this is from plate 6.
This is confirmed not only by placement of letters HC but also by guideline in corner with C letter.
Thanks
Paul

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Re: Can someone please plate this penny black?

Post by kronenburg1664 »

Yep, plate 1b shows 7 and 10 oclock ray flaws,a nice big margin example

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Re: Can someone please plate this penny black?

Post by buynow »

Thanks for the info. Its nice to put a plate to a face :D
Cheers!

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Re: Help with Penny Black needed

Post by pertinax »

6 looks good to me too.

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Re: Can someone please plate this penny black?

Post by pertinax »

1b gets my vote too.
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Re: Help with GB 'Penny Black' plate number needed

Post by skilo54 »

Hey There,
I am also wondering if I could have some assistance identifying my penny black plate number as well. As far as I can figure from what I have read, I can eliminate the Ray Flaw and the "O" Flaw, I think :? which eliminates plates 1a,1b,2?,7,8,9,10,11. Out of the remaining plates, according to the letter placements in the bottom boxes, along with the weak top line NE corner, I would say that my stamp is from plate 4. Would I be on the right track, or am I missing something? I have also noticed the small dot slightly above-right of the SW box and the horn like line that comes off the O in one at the 9 oclock position, are these important clues to the ID of my stamp? I am pretty "green" :mrgreen: when it comes to this hobby, and any help will be appreciated!
Thanks
Skilo54


P.s. If I am completely out to lunch with my evaluation, please do not hold any criticisms, I am hoping to learn from "like minded people" :D

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Re: Help with GB 'Penny Black' plate number needed

Post by pertinax »

skilo,

Your stamp is from plate 6.

Note the description on the page from Litchfield that you include above has against plate 6:

"Dot in lower half of H"

just like your stamp!


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Re: Help with GB 'Penny Black' plate number needed

Post by skilo54 »

Plate 6 it is then! :D :D :D I had noticed that small dot but wasn't quite sure if that was a dot of ink or some other type of aging related checking? I really appreciate your expertise in this area, Thanks very much pertinax
Skilo54

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Re: Help with GB 'Penny Black' plate number needed

Post by pertinax »

Any time!
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Re: Help with GB 'Penny Black' plate number needed

Post by skilo54 »

pertinax wrote:Any time!

Hey Pertinax & Everyone!
I put together a collage of some of my other stamps from the same era, and thought you might like to see it. I have begun to read/use "Guidelines to the Penny Black" by P.C. Litchfield. If you or any of the other members know of any more current resources (free links?) I could use to help me start to learn about these stamps I would appreciate the tip! The penny black shown in this collage is different than my other image, and has a really nice red Maltese cross. Some of the red one penny's have some pretty cool looking crosses as well! I gather from your help in this thread, along with some of the other posts you have authored that you are very knowledgeable in this area, and I appreciate any info you folks wouldn't mind sharing with a rookie.
Have A Great Day! 8) 8) 8)

Skilo54


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Re: Help with GB 'Penny Black' plate number needed

Post by pertinax »

Yes. For penny blacks have a look here:

http://www.maltesex.com/plating/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Enter the site, and then put in your stamps checkletters in this format:

lefti righth

for a stamp lettered IH.

You will then get a scan of the photo from Nissen that shows stamps from all of the black plates of that lettering. You will also get a list of other stamps with that lettering that have been loaded to the site.

Enjoy!


Scott
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Re: Help with GB 'Penny Black' plate number needed

Post by skilo54 »

:D Wow! :D What a great site! 8) I can't believe how easily and quickly helps to determine the various plates, someone has done a lot of homework!!! Am I correct that the penny reds printed with black plates have the stars in the top corners? If that is the case, can I use this method of identifying plates on those stamps? I wish I could bag off work today and spend the day with my stamps, oh well, at least it is Friday! Stamp Show tomorrow!!!
Thanks for the assistance Scott, 8) 8) 8)

Skilo54

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Re: Help with GB 'Penny Black' plate number needed

Post by pertinax »

skilo54 wrote: Am I correct that the penny reds printed with black plates have the stars in the top corners? If that is the case, can I use this method of identifying plates on those stamps?
Yes, but with a red stamp it's not so straight forward since it could come from a large number of other plates as well. Have a look here:

http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=17023


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Re: Help with GB 'Penny Black' plate number needed

Post by skilo54 »

Hello there,
Below is my attempt at trying to narrow my focus and properly identify my GB Victorian Stamps. I have used an old perf. gauge to evaluate the perf. numbers, along with the Lichtenstein Book and https://www.maltesex.com/plating/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; as recommended by pertinax. I think I am on the right track, but some feedback from some of you more advanced members would be greatly appreciated! I haven't been able to figure out some of them, but am doing my darndest to learn as much about these stamps as I can. Pertinax mentioned in https://www.stampboards.com/posting.php?mode=reply&f=29&t=13931someone" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; he knew of that plated stamps for 40 years without having them looked at by others, so I am putting mine out there for every-ones critique! I hope to hear from some of you soon!
Oh yeah, and if any of you know the approximate value of these stamps I would love to know as I am going to a stamp show to sell the lot and I don't want to get swindled!( :lol: JUST KIDDING! :lol: )

Teach Me Jedi Masters! :D :D :D

Thanks for your time,
Skilo54

Image
One Penny Black - imperf. Plate 2 Red MX Cancel

Image
Halfpenny Red - perf.14 Plate 10 Very Faint Cancel

Image
Two Pence Blue - imperf. pair? Plate unknown Double Cancel

Image
Two Pence Blue - perf. 14 Plate 9 Numeral cancel

Image
Two Pence Blue - perf.14 Plate 16 Numeral Cancel

Image
Two Pence Blue - perf.16 Plate 14 Very Faint Cancel

Image
One Penny Red - imperf. Plate 5 Black MX Cancel

Image
One Penny Red - imperf. Unknown Plate Fancy Numeral Cancel

Image
One Penny Red - imperf. Plate 3 Black MX Cancel

Image
One Penny Red - imperf. Plate 11? No Visible Cancel

Image
One Penny Red - imperf. Unknown Plate Black MX Cancel

Image
One Penny Red - perf.14 Plate 214 Very Faint Cancel

Image
One Penny Red - perf.14 Plate 184 Numeral Cancel

Image
One Penny Red - perf.14 Plate Unknown Faint Numeral Cancel

Image
One Penny Red - imperf. Plate 11 Numeral Cancel

Image
One Penny Red - perf.14 Unknown Plate No Visible Cancel

Image
One Penny Red - perf.14 Plate 137 Faint Cancel

Image
One Penny Red - perf.14 Plate 123 Faint Cancel

Image
One Penny Red - perf.16 Plate Unknown Faint Cancel

Image
One Penny Red - perf.14 Plate Unknown Numeral Cancel

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Re: Help with GB 'Penny Black' plate number needed

Post by jugoslavija_post »

Skilo54, I think the halfpenny red is plate 12. :wink:

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Re: Help with GB 'Penny Black' plate number needed

Post by pertinax »

jugoslavija_post wrote:Skilo54, I think the halfpenny red is plate 12. :wink:
Yes indeed Eric!

The 2d blue imperf pair is plate 3.

The 2d blue marked as plate 16, is plate 15.

The imperf 1d red marked as plate 5, is plate 24. And so is the stamp lettered ID - note these two stamps used to be joined!! Plate 3 was never used for red prints.

The 1d red that is marked plate 11?, is plate 51.

The others will take me more time.


Scott
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