Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

We all have and handle these from time to time. "Back of book", Revenues, "Cinderellas", duty stamps and all kinds of other stamp like labels. Discuss them all HERE!

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Global Admin »

Three colour printing -- very expensive in that era.

Almost no postage stamps anywhere employed that pre-WWI. :idea:



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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Global Administrator wrote: 06 May 2022 23:50 Three colour printing -- very expensive in that era.

Almost no postage stamps anywhere employed that pre-WWI. :idea:



Image
Interesting. One of the many things I love about the copyright stamps is that aesthetically speaking, they are often extremely "over-engineered" considering their purpose.

Here are a couple I got from the current haul of 78s which show the opposite extreme; very uninspiring but they do the job!

On the left, Columbia in Australia, Set A010 1928-52, Type A1, and on the right, Stainer, Set 021, dated 1915-27, Type 2, ¾d.

Columbia and Stainer stamps
Columbia and Stainer stamps

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Now back to the gorgeous stamps again. This 14" vertical-cut Pathe disc has 2 different stamps on it, both in excellent condition.

I say "has" because even after 2 days in the bath (my wife was 'delighted') the stamps showed no signs of soaking off so I've left them on piece.

Pathe 14" disc
Pathe 14" disc

Pathe 14" disc
Pathe 14" disc

Pathe 14" disc
Pathe 14" disc


These are both Set 060, and date from c1912-15, Type 5a. The design is 25mm but they deserve to be seen larger!

This recording was made in 1910, so perhaps this disc extends the date range of the stamps by a couple of years, or perhaps the records were released for years after the recording was made.

Edifo stamp. Set 060 c1912-15
Edifo stamp. Set 060 c1912-15

Edifo stamp. Set 060 c1912-15
Edifo stamp. Set 060 c1912-15

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

This one is a new find from the "Norfolk Haul."

St. Giles Publishing has only two Sets in 'Stamps on Music': 012 with Value handstamped in Violet, and Set 013, Value typewritten(?) in Violet. Neither set has a 1⅛d currently listed, so this is a new value, but which set?? It looks handstamped to me, but Adam will know better than I!

Shown here extra-large to assist with the ID...

St Giles stamp 1⅛d
St Giles stamp 1⅛d

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 06 May 2022 23:00 I've now soaked off all the stamps from the Norfolk Garage Sale and they total around 220. I'll share the best and most interesting of them here over the next couple of weeks.

Actually I didn't soak off all the stamps, as 3 completely resisted attempts to remove them, including this mystery (to me) one at the centre of this etched Pathe disc.

Is it a copyright stamp? I suspect not, but look forward to finding out either way. I'm actually hoping it's not too special, as I'm sorry to have to confess that I destroyed the record, and almost completely destroyed the stamp trying (and failing) to soak, steam ,boil it off over a period of 2 days.

It was the boiling that destroyed the record... I won't do it again in future, that's for sure.

Here's the Before. I'd better not show the After.

Image

Image

It is classed by me as a copyright stamp, Pathe type 2a, set 020. Usually it is found in the middle of the disc with the spindle hole through it. The lettering in the top corners is "PF" for Pathé Frères, I don't know what the "21" at the base means.
Here's an example of the similar type 2b.
Pathe copyright stamp type 2b
Pathe copyright stamp type 2b
Re the problems removing them, here's what I wrote in the Catalogue Information section of Stamps on Music:
Some record labels use a gold ink that appears to bond very tightly with the glue used on most stamps, making it nearly impossible to remove without either thinning the stamp, or damaging the record label itself. Aco, Apex and Operaphone records are particularly bad in this regard.

Finally, the striking early issues of the Société Générale, especially when applied to Pathé records circa 1908-18, often utilised a glue that defies attempts to soften it. The record label will either need to be sacrificed, and will always leave an unsightly adherence to the back of the stamp, or the stamp will start to disintegrate before it lifts. As these early Pathé records are often quite expensive and desirable in their own right, I tend to leave them as found.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 06 May 2022 23:00

I was advised by others at the sale that I wouldn't find any stamps on the base of cylinder boxes, but luckily I ignored the advice and found this lovely Agence générale d'édition phonographique one. It's large for a copyright stamp, with the main square measuring around 28mm.

Image


I'm unfamiliar with these stamps, but it seems to fit in Set 070, Sub-set B, Type 7aV. There's only a "blue Odeon" shown in this set in Stamps on Music, so it seems this Pathe one is a new find.

Dated c1908-09, this is certainly now the oldest one in my collection.

The enlarged scan reveals the remarkably fine background text:

Image


Yes, PATHÉ type 7aV, and not in the 2nd Edition. It wouldn't surprise me if all the various companies exist on all 4 sub-types.
For those without the catalogue here's the relevant page snip for the various sub-types.
Agence Generale sub-types 7
Agence Generale sub-types 7
The issuing entity here is the AGENCE GÉNÉRALE DE L'ÉDITION PHONOGRAPHIQUE. The Agency was formed around 1905 by Lucien Vives as the first organised attempt to collect mechanical rights in France. It became the Société Générale de l’Edition Phonographique (EDIFO) around 1909 and ultimately BIEM.
Many of these early stamps bear the “L. Vives” signature in black

I do have another example, also from a PATHÉ cylinder.
Pathe cylinder lid
Pathe cylinder lid
Agence General PATHE 7aV
Agence General PATHE 7aV
And a very similar but probably slightly earlier example of type 6a PATHÉ.
Pathe cylinder lid
Pathe cylinder lid
Agence Generale PATHE 6a
Agence Generale PATHE 6a
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 07 May 2022 02:53 Now back to the gorgeous stamps again. This 14" vertical-cut Pathe disc has 2 different stamps on it, both in excellent condition.

I say "has" because even after 2 days in the bath (my wife was 'delighted') the stamps showed no signs of soaking off so I've left them on piece.

Image

Image

Image


These are both Set 060, and date from c1912-15, Type 5a. The design is 25mm but they deserve to be seen larger!

This recording was made in 1910, so perhaps this disc extends the date range of the stamps by a couple of years, or perhaps the records were released for years after the recording was made.

Image

Image

Those 14" Pathe's are amazing, now you just need to find one of their 20" monsters with a stamp! When you consider that were inside-start and spin at 120rpm, you need a serious gramophone to play them on. They also have quite shallow semi-circular hill&dale grooves, so the turntable needs to be perfectly level or the needle just skids off.

The red handstamps are the publishers in question - Heugel for Massenet's Manon, and Benoit for Verdi's Trovatore.

As for the stubborn glue, I have managed to get most off with a lot of patience and my trusty, slightly blunt chisel!
Stamps on Music book with chisel
Stamps on Music book with chisel
I will note the catalogue remains available (print on demaind) via lulu.com, currently AUS95.50 plus post. It is over 300 A4 pages in full colour, hence the price.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Picking up the listing of J. Albert, with the "LTD" sets.
In 1933 they changed their name to J. Albert & Son Ltd, and the stamp design was altered to reflect that. The value panel at the base gained curved sides, and the stamp was now 16mm square rather than 15mm.

1933-34. Type 5, Set 300, Perf 10, chalk-surfaced.
J. Albert & Son Ltd ½d
J. Albert & Son Ltd ½d
J. Albert & Son Ltd 5/8d (note "S" signature flaw)
J. Albert & Son Ltd 5/8d (note "S" signature flaw)
J. Albert & Son Ltd ¾d
J. Albert & Son Ltd ¾d
J. Albert & Son Ltd 7/8d
J. Albert & Son Ltd 7/8d
J. Albert & Son Ltd 1½d
J. Albert & Son Ltd 1½d
J. Albert & Son Ltd 6d
J. Albert & Son Ltd 6d
A couple of values are also found perf 11. 1935-37, set 310.
J. Albert & Son Ltd ¾d
J. Albert & Son Ltd ¾d
J. Albert & Son Ltd 6d
J. Albert & Son Ltd 6d
And as before, some were overprinted with the Francis, Day & Hunter script "FDH" signature. Set 320.
J. Albert & Son Ltd ½d FDH signature
J. Albert & Son Ltd ½d FDH signature
A 2¾d is also known so overprinted. Both values are very rare.

Finally for use on large (16") transcription discs for broadcasting, an unusual series in blue were issued. Their higher-than-normal values may have reflected Broadcasting copyrights rather than the usual Mechanical copyrights.
1935-37 type 5 "long type", perf 11, chalk-surfaced. Sets 330 & 332.
J. Albert & Son Ltd long-type 1s 3d
J. Albert & Son Ltd long-type 1s 3d
J. Albert & Son Ltd long-type 1s typewritten
J. Albert & Son Ltd long-type 1s typewritten
And that's all for the second part. Part 3 will cover the final design with "PTY LTD" incorporated and runs from the late 1930s to the late 1960s.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 07 May 2022 10:12
Iain P wrote: 06 May 2022 23:00 Is it a copyright stamp?
It is classed by me as a copyright stamp, Pathe type 2a, set 020. Usually it is found in the middle of the disc with the spindle hole through it. The lettering in the top corners is "PF" for Pathé Frères, I don't know what the "21" at the base means.
Here's an example of the similar type 2b.
Image

Re the problems removing them, here's what I wrote in the Catalogue Information section of Stamps on Music:
Some record labels use a gold ink that appears to bond very tightly with the glue used on most stamps, making it nearly impossible to remove without either thinning the stamp, or damaging the record label itself. Aco, Apex and Operaphone records are particularly bad in this regard.

Finally, the striking early issues of the Société Générale, especially when applied to Pathé records circa 1908-18, often utilised a glue that defies attempts to soften it. The record label will either need to be sacrificed, and will always leave an unsightly adherence to the back of the stamp, or the stamp will start to disintegrate before it lifts. As these early Pathé records are often quite expensive and desirable in their own right, I tend to leave them as found.
Ah yes, I now see now it's in the catalogue, I don't know how I missed that first time around. I'll look out for another example to replace my damaged one anyway.
And yes, I also remember now that advice re the glue on some labels...
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 07 May 2022 11:03
Iain P wrote: 07 May 2022 02:53 Now back to the gorgeous stamps again. This 14" vertical-cut Pathe disc has 2 different stamps on it, both in excellent condition.

I say "has" because even after 2 days in the bath (my wife was 'delighted') the stamps showed no signs of soaking off so I've left them on piece.

Image

Image

Image


These are both Set 060, and date from c1912-15, Type 5a. The design is 25mm but they deserve to be seen larger!

Image

Image

Those 14" Pathe's are amazing, now you just need to find one of their 20" monsters with a stamp! When you consider that were inside-start and spin at 120rpm, you need a serious gramophone to play them on. They also have quite shallow semi-circular hill&dale grooves, so the turntable needs to be perfectly level or the needle just skids off.

The red handstamps are the publishers in question - Heugel for Massenet's Manon, and Benoit for Verdi's Trovatore.

As for the stubborn glue, I have managed to get most off with a lot of patience and my trusty, slightly blunt chisel!
Image
I will note the catalogue remains available (print on demand) via lulu.com, currently AUS95.50 plus post. It is over 300 A4 pages in full colour, hence the price.
I did see a 20" one at the Garage Sale, though without a stamp. What a beast!

Despite 50+ years in the business of buying and selling 78rpm records, the dealer running the Garage Sale had never seriously noticed or thought about the stamps before, and was amazed at the catalogue, commenting that it was incredible to him that it could be produced by just one person.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

The work continues on the 220+ stamps from the Garage Sale. I was pleased to find that of the 6 Ascherberg stamps, 4 are new for my collection, including 3 which are not currently listed in the catalogue.

I already had the ¾d Set 030 Type 1 light green, but not the darker 'a' variant.

Ascherberg stamps, ¾d, ⅝d & 1⅜d
Ascherberg stamps, ¾d, ⅝d & 1⅜d


The two ⅝d rose-carmine are not currently listed in the "manuscript in black" set, so this is a new value for Set 011, dated 1918-25.

The bottom left rose-carmine is a tragedy, and a self-caused one at that!


Ascherberg stamps 'handstamped' & 1⅜d
Ascherberg stamps 'handstamped' & 1⅜d


It is, or would have been, a new Set for the catalogue, being handstamped (?) in red.

Having been caught out before with 'disappearing' values, I thought I'd photographed it before soaking but sadly, no. I think it was a 1 ⅔d value but can't be sure.

Even enhancing the image doesn't reveal much, but you can see the '1' clearly enough.

Ascherberg stamp detail
Ascherberg stamp detail


The same almost happened to the 1⅜d violet, typewritten (?) on purple but luckily it survived the soaking and the value is still legible. There isn't currently a 'violet value' listed, so I suspect this may be a new Set.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Jon E »

Went to a vintage radio / tv / audio event today (Retrotech) and on one stall someone had put a lot of effort into an approx A4 size montage of mostly record tax stamps ... well I just had to get it. No idea if there is anything new, but i'll post larger images of any individual stamps if requested:
Montage of mostly tax stamps
Montage of mostly tax stamps
I think the individual stamps are laminated which I guess is a shame - but I will pretty much keep it as is as I like it.

I did find a few records some of which have stamps, I think they aren't new but anyway posted here in case.
02.jpg
03.jpg
04.jpg
05.jpg
TTFN,
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

That's a nice find Jon. I've kept my eyes open for Copyright stamps in every antique shop, antique fair, auction and charity shop I've been to over the last two or three years but never seen anything like this!
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Jon E wrote: 09 May 2022 07:37 Went to a vintage radio / tv / audio event today (Retrotech) and on one stall someone had put a lot of effort into an approx A4 size montage of mostly record tax stamps ... well I just had to get it. No idea if there is anything new, but i'll post larger images of any individual stamps if requested:

Image

I think the individual stamps are laminated which I guess is a shame - but I will pretty much keep it as is as I like it.
TTFN,
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A great wall hanging for a collector, if nothing else.
A couple pique my interest - the Bosworth 1¼d top right and the green Francis Day & Hunter with an apparent manuscript value lower right.

The others I think I've recorded, but some are still rare to very rare, like the ¾d Billy Thorburn middle left side, and the John Church (¾d??) and the Dix altered value (manuscript "8"), both above the pink Franks label.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 09 May 2022 02:37

Image


The two ⅝d rose-carmine are not currently listed in the "manuscript in black" set, so this is a new value for Set 011, dated 1918-25.


The same almost happened to the 1⅜d violet, typewritten (?) on purple but luckily it survived the soaking and the value is still legible. There isn't currently a 'violet value' listed, so I suspect this may be a new Set.

The purple value 1⅜d is a new sub-listing, Most T/W items are black, but there are interesting variations.
Some are obviously the result of using a carbon paper and doing two sheets at once as the difference between the crisp top impression and the fuzzier carbon copy are apparent.

Some will recall some typewriter ribbons were dual colour and a lever would raise the ribbon so items could be typed in red. If the ribbon got out of alignment the text would emerge bi-colour. I think I have an example of a copyright stamp showing just that, I'll have to find it and post it here.

Also with typewriters you can backspace and overtype, I also have an example of that in action.

Finally I'd pretty sure that many items I list as being "Typewritten" weren't actually done via typewriters, but via something using raised type and an inked ribbon, a row or a column or even a whole sheet at a time. The 1925-30's New Zealand Railway Charges stamps type I station name overprints were done by this method.
NZ Railway Charges "typewritten" station
NZ Railway Charges "typewritten" station
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

As noted above, some typewritten values appeared to use carbon paper to value a second sheet of stamps.
These examples show the differences between a crisp top impression and the fuzzy second sheet.
All are Australian.
Allan & Co "A"
Allan & Co "A"
Allan & Co 6½d
Allan & Co 6½d
Boosey & Hawkes 1¾d
Boosey & Hawkes 1¾d
Chappell & Co Sydney ¾d
Chappell & Co Sydney ¾d
D. Davis & Co 1½d on 7d
D. Davis & Co 1½d on 7d
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

adam78 wrote: 09 May 2022 13:55 Some will recall some typewriter ribbons were dual colour and a lever would raise the ribbon so items could be typed in red. If the ribbon got out of alignment the text would emerge bi-colour. I think I have an example of a copyright stamp showing just that, I'll have to find it and post it here.
Paterson, Sons & Co, set 023, 1924, type 2, perf 11, value typewritten in red (normally).
It is also known in the black that was the usual typewriter ribbon colour, and also in violet.
These stamps prove they were done on a typewriter with the bi-colour ribbon, black top, red below.
On the left stamp, the ribbon got lowered slightly allowing the top of the '1' to pick up a bit of the black ribbon.
Patersons ½d typewritten values
Patersons ½d typewritten values
Patersons ½d bi-colour close-up
Patersons ½d bi-colour close-up
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

adam78 wrote: 10 May 2022 13:27
adam78 wrote: 09 May 2022 13:55 Some will recall some typewriter ribbons were dual colour and a lever would raise the ribbon so items could be typed in red. If the ribbon got out of alignment the text would emerge bi-colour. I think I have an example of a copyright stamp showing just that, I'll have to find it and post it here.
Paterson, Sons & Co, set 023, 1924, type 2, perf 11, value typewritten in red (normally).
It is also known in the black that was the usual typewriter ribbon colour, and also in violet.
These stamps prove they were done on a typewriter with the bi-colour ribbon, black top, red below.
On the left stamp, the ribbon got lowered slightly allowing the top of the '1' to pick up a bit of the black ribbon.
ImageImage
And this 1923-26 D. Davis & Co Ltd one where the ribbon has shifted up slightly to get some red on the base of the "8'.
D. Davis 1 3/8d typewritten value
D. Davis 1 3/8d typewritten value
And this Palings circa 1930 where the first "X" of the "XXX" overtyping shows the top in black.
Palings XXX on 6½d
Palings XXX on 6½d
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 09 May 2022 13:55 Some will recall some typewriter ribbons were dual colour and a lever would raise the ribbon so items could be typed in red. If the ribbon got out of alignment the text would emerge bi-colour.
Gosh, it's all more complicated than I previously thought, and I was struggling with it even back then ;)


You've got me revisiting my collection now, and this Associated Copyrights 5¼d stands out as particularly interesting. The typewritten (?) value appears to be black, violet AND red!

Is this a Set 023 Type 1, I wonder?

There's a 5¼d 'typewritten in black' on blue in the set, but this one seems more violet than black. Could it be due to the soaking process perhaps?? Scanning has made the violet appear a lot more intense. Visually the fraction looks almost black, with the strong red band at the bottom.

Associated Copyrights 5¼d
Associated Copyrights 5¼d

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 10 May 2022 15:17
adam78 wrote: 09 May 2022 13:55 Some will recall some typewriter ribbons were dual colour and a lever would raise the ribbon so items could be typed in red. If the ribbon got out of alignment the text would emerge bi-colour.
Gosh, it's all more complicated than I previously thought, and I was struggling with it even back then ;)


You've got me revisiting my collection now, and this Associated Copyrights 5¼d stands out as particularly interesting. The typewritten (?) value appears to be black, violet AND red!

Is this a Set 023 Type 1, I wonder?

There's a 5¼d 'typewritten in black' on blue in the set, but this one seems more violet than black. Could it be due to the soaking process perhaps?? Scanning has made the violet appear a lot more intense. Visually the fraction looks almost black, with the strong red band at the bottom.

Image

Yes, set 023, c.1918-1923.
Most have the value in black, a couple are now known in violet - the 2½d, 3d and 4½d.
What we'd need is a scan pre-soaking, but it does look like a bit of red at the base.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

On the subject of typewritten and typeset values, these two G. Ricordi from the recent haul are interesting. The 6d value is in a particularly small font size, just 2mm tall.

Looking at the first stamp close up I thought it must be typewritten, but looking at the second, I was thinking typeset, or perhaps hand-stamped? If so, that would place them in GB062, Type GB4a, "Value hand-stamped in Violet" making it a new value for the Set, which has a current highest value of 1¾d.

G. Ricordi 6d
G. Ricordi 6d

G. Ricordi 6d
G. Ricordi 6d

However, that Set is Perf 10½ and the stamps are not:

G. Ricordi perfs on 10½ scale
G. Ricordi perfs on 10½ scale

but are actually Perf 11:

G. Ricordi perfs on 11 scale
G. Ricordi perfs on 11 scale

so a new Set perhaps?

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 10 May 2022 15:51
Iain P wrote: 10 May 2022 15:17
adam78 wrote: 09 May 2022 13:55 Some will recall some typewriter ribbons were dual colour and a lever would raise the ribbon so items could be typed in red. If the ribbon got out of alignment the text would emerge bi-colour.
Gosh, it's all more complicated than I previously thought, and I was struggling with it even back then ;)


You've got me revisiting my collection now, and this Associated Copyrights 5¼d stands out as particularly interesting. The typewritten (?) value appears to be black, violet AND red!

Is this a Set 023 Type 1, I wonder?

There's a 5¼d 'typewritten in black' on blue in the set, but this one seems more violet than black. Could it be due to the soaking process perhaps?? Scanning has made the violet appear a lot more intense. Visually the fraction looks almost black, with the strong red band at the bottom.

Image

Yes, set 023, c.1918-1923.
Most have the value in black, a couple are now known in violet - the 2½d, 3d and 4½d.
What we'd need is a scan pre-soaking, but it does look like a bit of red at the base.
Well, surprisingly, it turns out I did photograph it pre-soaking. It appears more violet than black in the original, and the red is clearly visible. The difference in colour saturation between the two is due to the soaked one being scanned and the pre-soaked being photographed with a phone camera.

5¼d Associated Copyrights on piece
5¼d Associated Copyrights on piece

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

When I find even a fraction of a stamp on a record or pianola roll, I buy it if I don't immediately recognise it.

I bought 2 records with these 2 partial stamps, then later found the almost complete one below, on another record, so the top fragments are redundant.

It turns out the Scala stamp, Set 010 Type 2, dated 1913, is not particularly rare but I'd never seen one before so was happy to have it for the collection.

Scala stamp
Scala stamp


Sometimes though, all I end up with are single fragments, but they are still counted as "present" in the collection!

On the left is a Mozart Allan,(Glasgow) ¾d, Set 020, Type 1b dated 1931. It looks very green to me, but if it's 'deep blue' then it's already listed in Stamps on music.

The other is a Gramophone Company stamp. Sidola was a trademark of the French Gramophone Company. This one is Set S080 (an issue for Spain) c1920, yellow-green.

Mozart Allan & Sidola stamp fragments
Mozart Allan & Sidola stamp fragments

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Hi Adam, I've found something of an intriguing puzzle today. Going through the recent haul of stamps, I found this Cambridge Music ¾d:

Cambridge Music  ¾d
Cambridge Music ¾d


There are only the 2 Sets for the Cambridge stamps in the catalogue, both Perf 12, 010 'Value typeset in black', and 012 'Value handstamped in violet', with only 3 values in Set 010 and 1 in 012, so I though it would be a simple task to find a place for the stamp, and indeed there is already a ¾d on Blue listed in Set 010.

Then the fun started... I measured the perfs and found the stamp is Perf 15 x 14, so I thought I'd found a new Set.

I have 3 other Cambridge Music stamps: a 1⅛d typeset in black, already listed in the catalogue in Set 010, and 2 x 2¼d 'value in manuscript,' which we'd already identified as a new Set. When I measured those, all 3 turn out to be 15 x 14 as well!

So either I have 4 stamps belonging to new Perf 15 x 14 Sets / Subsets, or there's another explanation :)

cambridge Music stamps, perf 15 x 14
cambridge Music stamps, perf 15 x 14

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 11 May 2022 22:33 Hi Adam, I've found something of an intriguing puzzle today. Going through the recent haul of stamps, I found this Cambridge Music ¾d:

Image


There are only the 2 Sets for the Cambridge stamps in the catalogue, both Perf 12, 010 'Value typeset in black', and 012 'Value handstamped in violet', with only 3 values in Set 010 and 1 in 012, so I though it would be a simple task to find a place for the stamp, and indeed there is already a ¾d on Blue listed in Set 010.

Then the fun started... I measured the perfs and found the stamp is Perf 15 x 14, so I thought I'd found a new Set.

I have 3 other Cambridge Music stamps: a 1⅛d typeset in black, already listed in the catalogue in Set 010, and 2 x 2¼d 'value in manuscript,' which we'd already identified as a new Set. When I measured those, all 3 turn out to be 15 x 14 as well!

So either I have 4 stamps belonging to new Perf 15 x 14 Sets / Subsets, or there's another explanation :)

Image

My bad, lazy cut&paste way back in the first edition, should be p15x14. Well caught, thanks.
Adam
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 11 May 2022 08:06 When I find even a fraction of a stamp on a record or pianola roll, I buy it if I don't immediately recognise it.

I bought 2 records with these 2 partial stamps, then later found the almost complete one below, on another record, so the top fragments are redundant.

It turns out the Scala stamp, Set 010 Type 2, dated 1913, is not particularly rare but I'd never seen one before so was happy to have it for the collection.

Image


Sometimes though, all I end up with are single fragments, but they are still counted as "present" in the collection!

On the left is a Mozart Allan,(Glasgow) ¾d, Set 020, Type 1b dated 1931. It looks very green to me, but if it's 'deep blue' then it's already listed in Stamps on music.

The other is a Gramophone Company stamp. Sidola was a trademark of the French Gramophone Company. This one is Set S080 (an issue for Spain) c1920, yellow-green.

Image

Indeed, especially when the aim is to develop a comprehensive catalogue, even fragmentary evidence is useful to prove the existing of an issuer, type or value in a set.
Here are some I obtained, and have yet to find another better copy.
Mayol copyright stamp
Mayol copyright stamp
IBA type 3 copyright stamp
IBA type 3 copyright stamp
G. Ballu et Cie copyright stamp
G. Ballu et Cie copyright stamp
G. Ballu et Cie were the company behind the Aerophone label around 1910. After about 1913 they reformed as Société Française Aérophone, and their final stamp design dispensed with the GB monogram.
Here are the original records I purchased out of Europe just to obtain the Ballu and Mayol proving items. Glad I did as I've yet to obtain another of either.
G Ballu copyright stamp on Aerophone record
G Ballu copyright stamp on Aerophone record
Note that Felix Mayol is the singer, not a composer, so probably a performer's copyright stamp rather than a mechanical copyright one. The Molinier stamp next to it is also quite rare, note the composer Borel-Clerc's handstamp.
Mayol copyright stamp on record
Mayol copyright stamp on record
CF Bodro, only copy in my collection, I have sighted better ones on records online.
CF Bodro copyright stamp
CF Bodro copyright stamp
Years ago I obtained a record with two damaged copies of this Ars Nova stamp, which I merged into a single almost complete specimen. Still waiting to find a better copy...
Ars Nova copyright stamp
Ars Nova copyright stamp
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 12 May 2022 08:44
Iain P wrote: 11 May 2022 22:33 Hi Adam, I've found something of an intriguing puzzle today. Going through the recent haul of stamps, I found this Cambridge Music ¾d:

Image


There are only the 2 Sets for the Cambridge stamps in the catalogue, both Perf 12, 010 'Value typeset in black', and 012 'Value handstamped in violet', with only 3 values in Set 010 and 1 in 012, so I though it would be a simple task to find a place for the stamp, and indeed there is already a ¾d on Blue listed in Set 010.

Then the fun started... I measured the perfs and found the stamp is Perf 15 x 14, so I thought I'd found a new Set.

I have 3 other Cambridge Music stamps: a 1⅛d typeset in black, already listed in the catalogue in Set 010, and 2 x 2¼d 'value in manuscript,' which we'd already identified as a new Set. When I measured those, all 3 turn out to be 15 x 14 as well!

So either I have 4 stamps belonging to new Perf 15 x 14 Sets / Subsets, or there's another explanation :)

Image

My bad, lazy cut&paste way back in the first edition, should be p15x14. Well caught, thanks.
Adam
I'm glad there was a simple explanation Adam :). I initially thought they were a mix of p15 x 14 and p14 x 15, until I realised the second manuscript value was on its side.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 12 May 2022 14:57
Iain P wrote: 11 May 2022 08:06 When I find even a fraction of a stamp on a record or pianola roll, I buy it if I don't immediately recognise it.
Indeed, especially when the aim is to develop a comprehensive catalogue, even fragmentary evidence is useful to prove the existing of an issuer, type or value in a set.
Here are some I obtained, and have yet to find another better copy.
Image
Image
Image
G. Ballu et Cie were the company behind the Aerophone label around 1910. After about 1913 they reformed as Société Française Aérophone, and their final stamp design dispensed with the GB monogram.
Here are the original records I purchased out of Europe just to obtain the Ballu and Mayol proving items. Glad I did as I've yet to obtain another of either.
Image
Note that Felix Mayol is the singer, not a composer, so probably a performer's copyright stamp rather than a mechanical copyright one. The Molinier stamp next to it is also quite rare, note the composer Borel-Clerc's handstamp.
Image
CF Bodro, only copy in my collection, I have sighted better ones on records online.
Image

Years ago I obtained a record with two damaged copies of this Ars Nova stamp, which I merged into a single almost complete specimen. Still waiting to find a better copy...
Image
There are some gorgeous stamps there, despite the bites!

I recently had the opposite experience to your merged Ars Nova stamp: I bought what I thought was a whole stamp but it was actually ripped in two.

I don't like to pay more than a few pounds for a single stamp but splashed out £13 for a Pianolo roll on eBay which seemed to have a new James Kerr stamp, though as usual the seller hadn't specifically photographed the stamp so it was mostly a guess.

I thought it had a typewritten value, which would make it a new Set, but it's actually typeset, making it a member of the existing Set 014, 1915-25. Type 1, deep violet.

The highest current value within this set is only 1d though, so the 4½d nicely extends the set, in fact the highest value within any of the sets is the 3½d in Set 020.

It soaked off into 2 separate pieces, but fits back together well enough:

James Kerr stamp 4½d
James Kerr stamp 4½d

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Some more claims for new additions to the fabled 3rd Edition of Stamps on Music :)

The ⅝d is a new value for Keith Prowse, Set 020, 1922-26. Type 2, Value overprinted in red, sideways left.

⅝d Keith Prowse stamp
⅝d Keith Prowse stamp


And a new value of 6¾d in Set 011, 1925, Type 1, value in manuscript in black:

6¾d Keith Prowse stamp
6¾d Keith Prowse stamp


This 2⅓d Herman Darewski is new for Set 033, 1920-22, Type 2, value typewritten in violet.

2⅓d Herman Darewski stamp
2⅓d Herman Darewski stamp


I'd never seen a stamp from the German copyright agency Ammre before so was quite excited when I found 2 records with them on. It turns out they are not uncommon but they are lovely stamps, even in this poor condition.

The stamps are already listed in Set x010 1923-29, Type X1, perf 9½, but I think the handstamps are new finds.
The handstamps "[represent] record company, country and usually record diameter."
I think the 'Gram' in the top 2 refers to 'Grammo' and E for England, but the '1d' is a mystery, unless it refers to the value?
I think the violet 'S' is a new find too:

Ammre stamps, foreign issue handstamps
Ammre stamps, foreign issue handstamps

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Three further 'new finds':

Lawrence Wright, Set 023 1925. Type 2 Perf 11. Value typewritten in black.

The ¼d is a new value for the Set.

Lawrence Wright stamp ¼d
Lawrence Wright stamp ¼d


The Mecolico Set 013, 1918-30 Type 1a, perf 12, typewritten 6¾d is currently listed but only in black, so this gets a mention as 'a. value in violet' I think.

Mecolico stamp 6¾d in violet
Mecolico stamp 6¾d in violet


And the Boosey & co ⅔d is a new value for Set 010 1913-24 Type 1, value typeset in black,
Sub-set A: Perf 11.
Boosey ⅔d stamp
Boosey ⅔d stamp
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Now some interesting surcharged stamps.

This Cecil Lennox Ltd 1d, Type 2, value typeset in black, Perf 14 x 15, Font 3 would usually belong in Set 020 1926-28 but it has been revalued down to ¼d (I wonder why...).

As there are currently no revalued Cecil Lennox examples currently listed in Stamps on Music, I presume it's a new Set.

Cecil Lennox Ltd 1d stamp revalued
Cecil Lennox Ltd 1d stamp revalued


I wasn't sure if this was a surcharged value on the Copyright Protection Society stamp or just a random line, but looking close up you can see the centre line in the ink, where the split in the old nib was. To get more forensic: you can also see that the person was right handed from the angle of the starting point of the line, and also that the pen was pulled from top to bottom.

Copyright Protection Society stamp
Copyright Protection Society stamp

Copyright Protection Society stamp detail
Copyright Protection Society stamp detail


I was about to present this evidence to lay my claim for this being a new revalued stamp for the catalogue, then saw it's already listed!

Set 046, 1920-22, Set 040 revalued with manuscript '1' Red on ⅓d green, red.


This Silberman & Grock is a good find: the 2¼d typeset revalued to 1¼d is a new value for Set 036 1920-22 Perf 15x14, 'surcharged in manuscript in black', in fact the 2¼d is a new value for the Silberman stamps.

Silberman & Grock stamp revalued
Silberman & Grock stamp revalued

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 13 May 2022 21:56


This 2⅓d Herman Darewski is new for Set 033, 1920-22, Type 2, value typewritten in violet.

Image



This Cecil Lennox Ltd 1d, Type 2, value typeset in black, Perf 14 x 15, Font 3 would usually belong in Set 020 1926-28 but it has been revalued down to ¼d (I wonder why...).

As there are currently no revalued Cecil Lennox examples currently listed in Stamps on Music, I presume it's a new Set.

Image


Lawrence Wright, Set 023 1925. Type 2 Perf 11. Value typewritten in black.

The ¼d is a new value for the Set.

Image

I agree with your new finds above but these three.

The Darewski is unlikely to be 2⅓d, I'd read it as 2⅛d, which is a good fit with other values.

The Cecil Lennox I'd read as 2¼d. A similar revaluation in that new set (026) has been found elsewhere on the ⅝d value.
Lennox type 2 ⅝d MS revalued to 2¼d
Lennox type 2 ⅝d MS revalued to 2¼d
The Lawrence Wright ¼d is odd, especially if it was by itself - that rate was usually a make-up rate along-side another stamp, like any ⅛d value. Unless that was the case, I think it is actually 1¼d, the top of the faintly struck "1" can be seen to the left. Still a rare stamp.

For any possible new finds it is useful if you record here what it came off, especially if a 78rpm record, as I can usually date those.

Adam
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 15 May 2022 14:22
Iain P wrote: 13 May 2022 21:56


This 2⅓d Herman Darewski is new for Set 033, 1920-22, Type 2, value typewritten in violet.

Image



This Cecil Lennox Ltd 1d, Type 2, value typeset in black, Perf 14 x 15, Font 3 would usually belong in Set 020 1926-28 but it has been revalued down to ¼d (I wonder why...).

As there are currently no revalued Cecil Lennox examples currently listed in Stamps on Music, I presume it's a new Set.

Image


Lawrence Wright, Set 023 1925. Type 2 Perf 11. Value typewritten in black.

The ¼d is a new value for the Set.

Image

I agree with your new finds above but these three.

The Darewski is unlikely to be 2⅓d, I'd read it as 2⅛d, which is a good fit with other values.

The Cecil Lennox I'd read as 2¼d. A similar revaluation in that new set (026) has been found elsewhere on the ⅝d value.
Image

The Lawrence Wright ¼d is odd, especially if it was by itself - that rate was usually a make-up rate along-side another stamp, like any ⅛d value. Unless that was the case, I think it is actually 1¼d, the top of the faintly struck "1" can be seen to the left. Still a rare stamp.

For any possible new finds it is useful if you record here what it came off, especially if a 78rpm record, as I can usually date those.

Adam
Thanks Adam, yes that makes more sense for the Cecil Lennox to be 2¼d rather than "zero" and ¼d! I bought it on eBay so can't add anymore information about what it came off, but point taken regarding recording the provenance of the stamps. I record the origin of the obviously unusual ones but of course often it's only later that the unusual ones turn out not to be obvious at all...

Regarding the Lawrence Wright '¼d' I looked again at my others and think I've found its matching pair, making it a 2¼d rather than a 1¼d. I see there's a 2¼d blue in Set 023 but not a 2¼d red, so that's a new member for the Set, I believe.

Lawrence Wright 2¼d
Lawrence Wright 2¼d

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Here are a couple of lovely stamps, both of which I'm hoping are new finds.

I bought this gorgeous German Odeon one online some time ago, and placed it as an existing example within Set 020, Type 2a, perf 11½. Checking it again though, I think the green/orange is a new colour for the Set, which currently has only green/rose, green/green, lilac/grey and red/rose. The violet hand-stamped 'Nederland' is interesting too:

Odeon stamp green on orange
Odeon stamp green on orange


I revisited this one as I was checking another I got from the recent 'Norfolk Haul'.
The Odeon stamp on the Odeon label looks super:

Odeon stamp green on green
Odeon stamp green on green

Odeon stamp green on green, on piece
Odeon stamp green on green, on piece


I was only mildly disappointed to find that the green/green is currently listed, in the same Set as above: 020 Type 2a, perf 11½. But after soaking the stamp off and measuring the perfs, it turns out to be p9½ x 9½!

Odeon stamp perf 9½ x 9½
Odeon stamp perf 9½ x 9½


The record is "Crescent-Trio/ American-Jazz-Band– One, Two Three, Four / 12th St. Rag
Odeon – 311910, Odeon – 311911" and was released in 1921. The 020 Set covers the date range 1916-17 so presumably the later stamps had these larger perfs.

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

The typewritten value of 3½d in Swan & Co. Set 023, 1928-30, Type 2, is currently unlisted in the catalogue:

3½d Swan & Co. stamp
3½d Swan & Co. stamp


And this Gramophone Co. ¾d, typewritten in black, perf 12 is a new value for Set 040, Type 2.1925-27.

Gramophone Co. stamp ¾d
Gramophone Co. stamp ¾d


This set seems to have been produced using the original plates, hence them "being very crisp in appearance, similar to the original issues of Type 1a from 1913" (Stamps on Music 2017, p129).

The stamp is tiny, with the main outer circle measuring just under 15mm, and the dog is a mere 5mm from nose to tail:

Gramophone Co. stamp ¾d detail
Gramophone Co. stamp ¾d detail

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 15 May 2022 18:01 Here are a couple of lovely stamps, both of which I'm hoping are new finds.

I bought this gorgeous German Odeon one online some time ago, and placed it as an existing example within Set 020, Type 2a, perf 11½. Checking it again though, I think the green/orange is a new colour for the Set, which currently has only green/rose, green/green, lilac/grey and red/rose. The violet hand-stamped 'Nederland' is interesting too:

Image


I revisited this one as I was checking another I got from the recent 'Norfolk Haul'.
The Odeon stamp on the Odeon label looks super:

Image

Image


I was only mildly disappointed to find that the green/green is currently listed, in the same Set as above: 020 Type 2a, perf 11½. But after soaking the stamp off and measuring the perfs, it turns out to be p9½ x 9½!

Image


The record is "Crescent-Trio/ American-Jazz-Band– One, Two Three, Four / 12th St. Rag
Odeon – 311910, Odeon – 311911" and was released in 1921. The 020 Set covers the date range 1916-17 so presumably the later stamps had these larger perfs.

Yes, Odeon had quite a few colour combinations. Re the p9½, the other large German stamp issuer AMMRE also had this perf alongside 11½ so quite understandable - maybe they used the same printer? Who printed the various stamps from all issuers, with the exception of the Harrison ones, remains a mystery in almost all cases.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 18 May 2022 22:00 The typewritten value of 3½d in Swan & Co. Set 023, 1928-30, Type 2, is currently unlisted in the catalogue:

Image


And this Gramophone Co. ¾d, typewritten in black, perf 12 is a new value for Set 040, Type 2.1925-27.

Image


This set seems to have been produced using the original plates, hence them "being very crisp in appearance, similar to the original issues of Type 1a from 1913" (Stamps on Music 2017, p129).

The stamp is tiny, with the main outer circle measuring just under 15mm, and the dog is a mere 5mm from nose to tail:

Image

The similar red-violet design with the less-clear design is shown below. The differences are obvious. They are also perf 13½.
Gramophone Co type 2
Gramophone Co type 2
Gramophone Co type 2 closeup
Gramophone Co type 2 closeup
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

While on the topic of The Gramophone Co (HMV), I noted much above that I had a stamp showing the unique typewriter variation of back-spacing and overtyping.
The type S6 of this issuer is for their Spanish operations - Compagnia del Gramofono S.A.E and was printed as a long-type with a tab at base - "Not valid in Spain and The Americas", and used from the late 1920s to the early 1940s. Usually printed in blue, it is also known in red-brown.
The composer's name is provisionally inserted in the white panel, usually manuscript, or in these cases, by typewriter.
Gramophone Co type S6 BARCELONA
Gramophone Co type S6 BARCELONA
Records sold in Spain & South America had the tab cut off (although exceptions are noted)
Gramophone Co type S6 SERRANO
Gramophone Co type S6 SERRANO
And this very sorry example shows where the spurious second "A" has been backspaced and overtyped by the correct "D".
Gramophone Co type S6 GRANADOS
Gramophone Co type S6 GRANADOS
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 19 May 2022 14:53 While on the topic of The Gramophone Co (HMV), I noted much above that I had a stamp showing the unique typewriter variation of back-spacing and overtyping.
The type S6 of this issuer is for their Spanish operations - Compagnia del Gramofono S.A.E and was printed as a long-type with a tab at base - "Not valid in Spain and The Americas", and used from the late 1920s to the early 1940s. Usually printed in blue, it is also known in red-brown.
The composer's name is provisionally inserted in the white panel, usually manuscript, or in these cases, by typewriter.
Image

Records sold in Spain & South America had the tab cut off (although exceptions are noted)
Image

And this very sorry example shows where the spurious second "A" has been backspaced and overtyped by the correct "D".
Image
Very nice. What a laborious process through, having to type on every stamp!

Here are some new Associated Copyright values: 4d and 4¼d in Set 041 1927-33, Type 3, value in manuscript in black.

Associated Copyright stamps 4d and 4¼d
Associated Copyright stamps 4d and 4¼d


And a typewritten 4¼d for Set 043 c1930, Type 3. The current highest value for the set is 1⅞d so this nicely extends the range.

Associated Copyright stamp 4¼d
Associated Copyright stamp 4¼d


I'm not going to make any claims for these two, as it's not clear what they are.
It looks like an '8' but it could just be a random mark on a blank Type 1 in Set 021:

Associated Copyright stamp
Associated Copyright stamp


And this one is a good reminder to always record /photograph the stamp before soaking it off.
There's a '2' for sure, and the only stamps with a 2d value in Set 023 (c1918, value typewritten in black, no 'd') are a 2½d and a 2¾d, but the lower part of the fraction looks more like an 8, so perhaps it's a new one, but sadly the top part of the fraction is not clear.

I really should use the correct names here, which I have to admit, I just had to Google...
Top number: numerator, bottom number: denominator (I knew this on some level).


Associated Copyright stamp
Associated Copyright stamp

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 20 May 2022 19:30
I'm not going to make any claims for these two, as it's not clear what they are.
It looks like an '8' but it could just be a random mark on a blank Type 1 in Set 021:

Image


And this one is a good reminder to always record /photograph the stamp before soaking it off.
There's a '2' for sure, and the only stamps with a 2d value in Set 023 (c1918, value typewritten in black, no 'd') are a 2½d and a 2¾d, but the lower part of the fraction looks more like an 8, so perhaps it's a new one, but sadly the top part of the fraction is not clear.

I really should use the correct names here, which I have to admit, I just had to Google...
Top number: numerator, bottom number: denominator (I knew this on some level).


Image

Well, if the first one came off a roll, I'd argue for 8d, the 'd' was often a swirl above the number.
As the for other item, probably 2½d, but even RetroReveal couldn't help.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 21 May 2022 13:33
Iain P wrote: 20 May 2022 19:30
I'm not going to make any claims for these two, as it's not clear what they are.
It looks like an '8' but it could just be a random mark on a blank Type 1 in Set 021:

Image


And this one is a good reminder to always record /photograph the stamp before soaking it off.
There's a '2' for sure, and the only stamps with a 2d value in Set 023 (c1918, value typewritten in black, no 'd') are a 2½d and a 2¾d, but the lower part of the fraction looks more like an 8, so perhaps it's a new one, but sadly the top part of the fraction is not clear.

I really should use the correct names here, which I have to admit, I just had to Google...
Top number: numerator, bottom number: denominator (I knew this on some level).


Image

Well, if the first one came off a roll, I'd argue for 8d, the 'd' was often a swirl above the number.
As the for other item, probably 2½d, but even RetroReveal couldn't help.
Yes, the '8' one came off a roll. And RetroReveal is a great tool; I hadn't heard of that before.

Ok, now for some interesting items taken from 78s, rolls, and their boxes.

This stamp was on the end of a pianola roll box. It measures approximately 2.6cm x 2.3cm and the perforations are 10¾.

Mecolico legal notice
Mecolico legal notice


This was also on the end of a pianolo roll box. The outer detail measures 22.7mm square.

½d War Seal
½d War Seal


It's the "WW1 ½d War Seal Disabled Service 1914-1915 Cinderella stamp issue" which I see has already been discussed here: https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=463118#p463118

And some shop stickers. Imagine the days when you could get your gramophone and your bicycle repaired in the same shop:

shop stickers
shop stickers

And an oddity here:

cloth sticker
cloth sticker


Since it's made from cloth, and is fixed in place with sticky tape, I'd guess it's just a private individual's monogram, showing ownership of the record, but it's surprisingly well done, and represents a lot of work if these were attached to the entire collection!

The piece measures just 13mm x 14mm.

monogram on cloth
monogram on cloth


And finally, a tax stamp from Brazil. I've already shown this 200 Reis one here on the forum, and Adam suggested it probably shows payment of some import duty:

200 Reis Tax stamp. Brazil
200 Reis Tax stamp. Brazil


And here's the new find. It's interesting that the 400 Reis is a completely different shape.

The design is just 5.25mm wide:

400 Reis Tax stamp. Brazil
400 Reis Tax stamp. Brazil

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 10 May 2022 15:59 On the subject of typewritten and typeset values, these two G. Ricordi from the recent haul are interesting. The 6d value is in a particularly small font size, just 2mm tall.

Looking at the first stamp close up I thought it must be typewritten, but looking at the second, I was thinking typeset, or perhaps hand-stamped? If so, that would place them in GB062, Type GB4a, "Value hand-stamped in Violet" making it a new value for the Set, which has a current highest value of 1¾d.

Image

Image

However, that Set is Perf 10½ and the stamps are not:

Image


but are actually Perf 11:

Image

so a new Set perhaps?

Ricordi stamps of this era used P10½, 11½, 12 and 12½. No reason why some p11 shouldn't turn up either! I've rechecked all mine from this set and all are 10½, as below
Ricordi GB062 perf 10½
Ricordi GB062 perf 10½
Ricordi GB062 perf 10½ against p11
Ricordi GB062 perf 10½ against p11
NB: I've just discovered the online Gregg Zurek printable A4 perforation gauge. Runs from 3 to 18 in tenths, plus all quarters as well. I'll find some A4 transparancy and print it on that also.
https://stampsmarter.org/learning/FormPerfGauge.html
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 21 May 2022 20:34

Ok, now for some interesting items taken from 78s, rolls, and their boxes.

This stamp was on the end of a pianola roll box. It measures approximately 2.6cm x 2.3cm and the perforations are 10¾.

Image


I love that item - a stamp to let you know you need another stamp! It looks like it has a "missing 'i' in Britain" error too - doesn't look like an inking flaw. Any clue re date? And did the roll have a Mecolico stamp?

Similar in concept to these US rolls from 1917-18 where there was a printed warning on the roll leader, or a handstamp over the stamp.
Feist six cents duo with printed warning
Feist six cents duo with printed warning
Remick six cents with printed warning
Remick six cents with printed warning
Feist six cents with handstamped warning
Feist six cents with handstamped warning
I also note the first two examples have been cut from the coil by scissors (I presume) to further speed up affixing them. A quick look through all my examples of these on and off roll shows about two-thirds are cut like that.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 24 May 2022 15:07
Iain P wrote: 21 May 2022 20:34

Ok, now for some interesting items taken from 78s, rolls, and their boxes.

This stamp was on the end of a pianola roll box. It measures approximately 2.6cm x 2.3cm and the perforations are 10¾.

Image


I love that item - a stamp to let you know you need another stamp! It looks like it has a "missing 'i' in Britain" error too - doesn't look like an inking flaw. Any clue re date? And did the roll have a Mecolico stamp?

Similar in concept to these US rolls from 1917-18 where there was a printed warning on the roll leader, or a handstamp over the stamp.
ImageImageImage

I also note the first two examples have been cut from the coil by scissors (I presume) to further speed up affixing them. A quick look through all my examples of these on and off roll shows about two-thirds are cut like that.
Nice. I'll keep my eye out for more of those printed warnings and stamps.

You're right about the missing 'i' it seems. That's very clumsy of them! I just examined it closely and there's not a hint of a 'ghost' imprint there at all. The stamp came off a very old and tatty box, but more than that I don't remember. Yet again the message is "record your finds carefully before removing them from their substrate..."

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Here's another (tatty) example of the typewriter valued stamp showing the use of a bi-colour black-red ribbon, 1950.
D. Davis 2½d TW bi-colour
D. Davis 2½d TW bi-colour
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

With an ever-increasing collection of music copyright stamps from multiple sources needing recording, identifying and cataloguing, I was in danger of losing control of the situation, and was finding loose stamps on the floor etc.
I found the perfect solution while my wife was out by commandeering one of her jewellery boxes. It was very underutilised I should add in my defence.

j1.jpg

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

I thought it might be interesting to show what kind of "yield" I'm generally getting these days from a random batch of 78rpm records.
I bought a job lot of 500+ records on Gumtree and the seller very kindly pre-sorted the batch into With and Without stamps. In fact even more kindly, he agreed to a swap for some of my destamped 78s, so no money changed hands! (Thank you Paul).

From the original 500 records, around 130 had stamps of some kind. After putting to one side all the duplicates in poor condition....

S1312.jpg


.... the yield of decent condition and / or interesting ones is 102:

S1311.jpg
S1309.jpg


Removing the Tax stamps (top 3 rows) leaves 80 Copyright stamps.

Removing the duplicates and ones I already have leaves 26 new stamps for the collection.

Sn041.jpg


Top row:
Ascherberg. Set 011 9/16 d,
Associated Copyrights. Set 040, 1½d
BIEM. Set X090 A, U1.
Boosey & Co. Set 010 A. ½d
Bosworth & Co. Set GB010, Green 1¾d a. diff font. 2d Maroon a, serif font.
BIEM. Set X100

Middle row:
Chappell & Co. Set 010 B. Serif font ¾d, 1½d, & 2¾d
Francis, Day & Hunter. Set 042 9/16d. Set 020 B. 1d
Incorporated Society. Set 041 A. 2¾d
J.H.Larway. Set 020 ¾d (IV)

Bottom row:
Mecolico. Set 030 A. Type 2a ⅔d. Set 035 B. 1⅓d on 2 ¾d
Sidney Jones. Set 021 ½d on dull olive-green
Stanford, C. Villiers. Set 031. 2 ¼d yellow-green
EDIFO Set 90. Type 6b ODEON
Walsh, Holmes & Co. Set 011 1d, Set 020 ()

And now for the more interesting ones.

This 1d Reid Brothers stamp (Set 010) is very rare, and is listed in Stamps on Music as dating from "1913?". I've tried searching for the date of this record online, in order to add to the date range or confirm the 1913, but the only site I can find it on is "down for maintenance"...

Reid Brothers stamp on piece 1d
Reid Brothers stamp on piece 1d


Despite its poor condition, it's still a lovely early stamp, and deserves to be seen large:

Reid Brothers stamp 1d
Reid Brothers stamp 1d


This EDIFO Set 90 Type 6b also deserves to be seen large. Actual design size 20mm.

I believe the AMMRE handstamp is a new find for the catalogue.

EDIFO Set 90 GRAMOPHONE stamp
EDIFO Set 90 GRAMOPHONE stamp


I'm not at all confidence with the EDIFO stamps but I think this sorry looking one is new for set 85, as there's no ODEON currently listed there. Design detail is 20mm

EDIFO Set 85 ODEON
EDIFO Set 85 ODEON


And two more claims as new finds for the catalogue:

Associated Copyrights Set 021, ½d in manuscript:

Associated Copyrights Set 021, ½d
Associated Copyrights Set 021, ½d


And D.I.X Set 033 typewritten 1½d

D.I.X  1½d
D.I.X 1½d


So 500+ records yielded 26 new stamps for the collection, of which 3 are possible new finds.
I'm happy with that!
The good condition duplicates came in useful too, as about 20 of them replaced lesser quality ones in the collection.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 07 Jun 2022 02:34
And now for the more interesting ones.

This 1d Reid Brothers stamp (Set 010) is very rare, and is listed in Stamps on Music as dating from "1913?". I've tried searching for the date of this record online, in order to add to the date range or confirm the 1913, but the only site I can find it on is "down for maintenance"...

Image


Despite its poor condition, it's still a lovely early stamp, and deserves to be seen large:

Image


According to DATES (Dates About all Those English Seventy-eights) by Eddie Shaw, the Parlophone above dates from around 1929, so will update the catalogue accordingly. My two copies have no reference number pencilled in so weren't taken off 78s by me originally, so unclear where I got the 1913? date from.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 07 Jun 2022 02:34 I thought it might be interesting to show what kind of "yield" I'm generally getting these days from a random batch of 78rpm records.
I bought a job lot of 500+ records on Gumtree and the seller very kindly pre-sorted the batch into With and Without stamps. In fact even more kindly, he agreed to a swap for some of my destamped 78s, so no money changed hands! (Thank you Paul).

From the original 500 records, around 130 had stamps of some kind. After putting to one side all the duplicates in poor condition....

Image


.... the yield of decent condition and / or interesting ones is 102:

Image
Image


Removing the Tax stamps (top 3 rows) leaves 80 Copyright stamps.

Removing the duplicates and ones I already have leaves 26 new stamps for the collection.


Image

That's a nice haul from 500 records, especially as you're breaking even on the costs.

Purchased this 6" Piccola Meraviglia record out of Italy recently - it was Columbia's Italian equivalent of their US Little Wonder record. Dates from late 1920s. It has two stamps, both of which were new to my collection and to the catalogue.

Guiseppe Blanc (1886-1969) composed Giovinezza, stamps known in red and blue previously, now orange and are perf 11. I think the blue numbers are some form of serial number rather than a price (say). I could be wrong though. Other values seen (in violet) include 030, 0100, 0450 and 0500.
G Blanc stamp on Piccola record
G Blanc stamp on Piccola record
G. Blanc copyright stamp
G. Blanc copyright stamp
It took some working out what this stamp was - it was originally a black stamp for M. Andreoli (the publisher [and presumably also copyright holder] of Damiani's composition), then he formed the Editoriale Musica Italiana, Milano as his publishing house and overprinted the stamp in black with Diritto D'Edizione E.M.I.M. etc at a new address. Perf 11 also.
E.M.I.M. stamp on Piccola record
E.M.I.M. stamp on Piccola record
Note (Ed. Mu. It) on label.
E.M.I.M copyright stamp
E.M.I.M copyright stamp
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 07 Jun 2022 13:30
Iain P wrote: 07 Jun 2022 02:34
And now for the more interesting ones.

This 1d Reid Brothers stamp (Set 010) is very rare, and is listed in Stamps on Music as dating from "1913?". I've tried searching for the date of this record online, in order to add to the date range or confirm the 1913, but the only site I can find it on is "down for maintenance"...

Image


Despite its poor condition, it's still a lovely early stamp, and deserves to be seen large:

Image


According to DATES (Dates About all Those English Seventy-eights) by Eddie Shaw, the Parlophone above dates from around 1929, so will update the catalogue accordingly. My two copies have no reference number pencilled in so weren't taken off 78s by me originally, so unclear where I got the 1913? date from.
At last my new regime of recording the provenance of the stamps is paying dividends ;-)
It's obvious now you say it, that the record label can't have been from the 1910s!

And those Italian stamps are lovely...
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