Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

I was at the UK Birmingham Record Fair on Sunday, and came away with about 40 records with interesting stamps on, the best of which I'll post up here as I go through them.

Birmingham Record Fair
Birmingham Record Fair


Adam, your name came up quite a lot, as people saw me using the printed notebook of my collection, and came over to discuss copyright stamps, and quite a few have a copy of "Stamps on Music."

20220607_100719.jpg


Several people remembered you being at the fair a few years ago and pass on their regards. Michael Thomas said he was very happy to have seen you there, though said you wouldn't remember him. Norman Field, a very keen copyright stamp collector, said you certainly would remember him, as he bowed and took the knee in front of you in homage to your achievements, which is exactly what I would do were I ever to meet you :)

There were a lot of very expensive 78s there, some at £50 and more, but most were in the £2-£5 range. My best finds, however, were in this section, which again goes to show that one man's junk is another man's treasure:

20220605_102427.jpg


Ok, on to the stamps. The first is a puzzle. I can't find a reference to it in the catalogue, and I'm not even sure it's a "proper" copyright stamp. Perf 11½. The main detail is 13.5mm square.

Listed for copyright stamp
Listed for copyright stamp

The colour on the right side is staining from its soaking off the record.
Listed for copyright stamp
Listed for copyright stamp


The Keith Prowse ⅔d is already listed in Set 013, but the catalogue image shows the '3' to the left of the '2' whereas here it's to the right. The poor person in 1925 clearly didn't have the ⅔ symbol on the typewriter so had to type out the numbers separately!

Keith Prowse ⅔d stamp
Keith Prowse ⅔d stamp


These ¾d overprints on 2¾d Set 010 stamps are also already listed, as Set 015. The date is given as "1925?" but looking on Michael Thomas' Website here, the record label appeared first in 1934, so this either extends or revises the given date.http://www.mgthomas.co.uk/Records/LabelPages/Hudson.htm

Hudson record label
Hudson record label

Hudson record label
Hudson record label

Keith Prowse ¾d overprints on 2¾d
Keith Prowse ¾d overprints on 2¾d


And a new value for Chappell & Co Set 010: 2⅞d serif font.
It's Perf 13¾ x 14¼ No Wmk, which places it, I think, in Set 010 F, which currently has only a ¾d serif font. In fact, looking over the 6 pages of Chappell stamps in the catalogue, no other Set has a 2⅞d value so this would be a new value for the entire Chappell range, and the Morris handstamp looks like a new one too.

Chappell & Co stamp 2⅞d
Chappell & Co stamp 2⅞d

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Yes, my wife & I attended the fair back in 2015. I remember Norman's actions well, took the two of us aback! And Michael as well, he has a great site for UK 78s I refer to frequently. Like you I found good stuff in their cheap bins, although I did buy a more pricy US Paramount label blues 78, just to have one in my record collection.

The Listed for Copyright stamp is in the catalogue under "L", p156.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 08 Jun 2022 13:19 Yes, my wife & I attended the fair back in 2015. I remember Norman's actions well, took the two of us aback! And Michael as well, he has a great site for UK 78s I refer to frequently. Like you I found good stuff in their cheap bins, although I did buy a more pricy US Paramount label blues 78, just to have one in my record collection.

The Listed for Copyright stamp is in the catalogue under "L", p156.
Yes, I only realised Michael was THE Michael while writing the post.

Re prices: it all adds up doesn't it, even though this field of philately must surely be one of the cheapest to indulge in! I spent £90 on 40 records, but spent similar the week before, and £200 at the Norfolk garage sale last month so I have to be careful...

"The Listed for Copyright stamp is in the catalogue under "L", p156." Who knew?? Oh, that's really embarrassing, I don't know how I missed that.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 07 Jun 2022 21:47
And a new value for Chappell & Co Set 010: 2⅞d serif font.
It's Perf 13¾ x 14¼ No Wmk, which places it, I think, in Set 010 F, which currently has only a ¾d serif font. In fact, looking over the 6 pages of Chappell stamps in the catalogue, no other Set has a 2⅞d value so this would be a new value for the entire Chappell range, and the Morris handstamp looks like a new one too.

Image

Actually I think a new set for type 1a with a typewritten value, so 013. Do you have the record of what it came off so we can try to date it?
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 09 Jun 2022 07:40
Iain P wrote: 07 Jun 2022 21:47
And a new value for Chappell & Co Set 010: 2⅞d serif font.
It's Perf 13¾ x 14¼ No Wmk, which places it, I think, in Set 010 F, which currently has only a ¾d serif font. In fact, looking over the 6 pages of Chappell stamps in the catalogue, no other Set has a 2⅞d value so this would be a new value for the entire Chappell range, and the Morris handstamp looks like a new one too.

Image

Actually I think a new set for type 1a with a typewritten value, so 013. Do you have the record of what it came off so we can try to date it?
That's great news. Re dating it: I've only managed to narrow it down to 20th April 1949 :)

London Jazz record label
London Jazz record label


I bought two London Jazz records at the fair, both with Humphrey Lyttelton, so I was checking carefully to see which record the stamp came off. Luckily I'd photographed both before soaking off the stamps, and the other record also has a 2⅞d value on it. Trying to ID the stamp given that there are 6 pages for Mecolico in the catalogue is a bit of a white-knuckle ride, but I'm going to say that it's a new subset for Set 013, as there is no 2⅞d value in the Set, and all the values are Type 1a but this one is Type 1b

Mecolico stamp 2⅞d
Mecolico stamp 2⅞d


It's dated 2nd December 1948, which is a long way off the current date range for the Set of 1918-1930 so perhaps I'm missing something...

London Jazz record label
London Jazz record label


And it's interesting that exactly the same record can be seen here with Mecolico 2⅜d stamps:
https://www.discogs.com/release/15007351-Humphrey-Lyttelton- ... k5ODIxMjA=
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 10 Jun 2022 08:50
I bought two London Jazz records at the fair, both with Humphrey Lyttelton, so I was checking carefully to see which record the stamp came off. Luckily I'd photographed both before soaking off the stamps, and the other record also has a 2⅞d value on it. Trying to ID the stamp given that there are 6 pages for Mecolico in the catalogue is a bit of a white-knuckle ride, but I'm going to say that it's a new subset for Set 013, as there is no 2⅞d value in the Set, and all the values are Type 1a but this one is Type 1b

Image


It's dated 2nd December 1948, which is a long way off the current date range for the Set of 1918-1930 so perhaps I'm missing something...

Image


And it's interesting that exactly the same record can be seen here with Mecolico 2⅜d stamps:
https://www.discogs.com/release/15007351-Humphrey-Lyttelton- ... k5ODIxMjA=
That'll be the much later set 073 1950-70s, which were all type 1b but with a variety of perfs and roulettes, and generally a brighter colour. Looks like a new value anyway.

The item you link to seems to be a new value for set 080, perf 10¼.
Mecolico 2 3/8d on London Jazz
Mecolico 2 3/8d on London Jazz
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Thanks for the clarifications there. Here's an interesting puzzle or two (or more confusion on my part...)
I got this 1⅛d A. J. Stasny at the fair, and it seems to belong in Set 010 Type 1a. There's a maroon 1⅛d in the set but not a green so the first thought was it's a new colour for the set, but the Perfs don't quite match up: they are 14¼ x 13¾ rather than the Perf 14 x 15 for the Set. There's a very minor difference in the size too, as it's 18mm square rather than the listed 18.5mm. Actually, I just scanned it, and it's 18.1mm

1⅛d  A. J. Stasny stamp
1⅛d A. J. Stasny stamp


This got me checking my other 4 Stasny stamps and the plot thickens...
the ¾d orange is also 14¼ x 13¾ rather than the listed Perf 14 x 15.

¾d orange Stasny stamp
¾d orange Stasny stamp


The ⅝d grey-green is sadly too tatty for proper measurement, but the right side perfs are 14½ rather than 15.

⅝d grey-green Stasny stamp
⅝d grey-green Stasny stamp


The manuscript ⅝d Set 011 is Perf 14 x 15 as listed, as is the 1d, which I first thought was a handstamped value, Set 012, but looking at the serif font, I think it's in Set 013, value typewritten in black, possibly a carbon copy (subset 'a') though those are in violet ,and this seems to be black). Both measure around 18.2mm so there's clearly a little variation in size.

⅝d Stasny stamp
⅝d Stasny stamp

1d Stasny stamp
1d Stasny stamp


Looking even closer, I'm not sure now; it does look very handstamped. Over to you Adam!

1d Stasny stamp detail
1d Stasny stamp detail

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 11 Jun 2022 04:39 Thanks for the clarifications there. Here's an interesting puzzle or two (or more confusion on my part...)
I got this 1⅛d A. J. Stasny at the fair, and it seems to belong in Set 010 Type 1a. There's a maroon 1⅛d in the set but not a green so the first thought was it's a new colour for the set, but the Perfs don't quite match up: they are 14¼ x 13¾ rather than the Perf 14 x 15 for the Set. There's a very minor difference in the size too, as it's 18mm square rather than the listed 18.5mm. Actually, I just scanned it, and it's 18.1mm

Image


This got me checking my other 4 Stasny stamps and the plot thickens...
the ¾d orange is also 14¼ x 13¾ rather than the listed Perf 14 x 15.

Image


The ⅝d grey-green is sadly too tatty for proper measurement, but the right side perfs are 14½ rather than 15.

Image
More good spotting Iain, several values of Stasny occur in the 14¼ x 13¾ perf. The 14x15 of the majority should really be 14¼x15 but I tended not to worry to much about tenths unless required to distinguish withih a set.
So simplistically these could be 14x15 or 14, or more accurately 14¼x15 or 14¼x13¾.

Four of my 20 ¾d orange are p14¼ x 13¾ (none watermarked) and just 1 of 16 1d is the new perf (also not watermarked).

Several of the provisional handstamped and typewritten values also exist in both perfs - the ¾d and 1d H/S set 012 and the same values plus the 1 1/8d typewritten set 013.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 11 Jun 2022 10:39
Iain P wrote: 11 Jun 2022 04:39
More good spotting Iain, several values of Stasny occur in the 14¼ x 13¾ perf. The 14x15 of the majority should really be 14¼x15 but I tended not to worry to much about tenths unless required to distinguish withih a set.
So simplistically these could be 14x15 or 14, or more accurately 14¼x15 or 14¼x13¾.

Four of my 20 ¾d orange are p14¼ x 13¾ (none watermarked) and just 1 of 16 1d is the new perf (also not watermarked).

Several of the provisional handstamped and typewritten values also exist in both perfs - the ¾d and 1d H/S set 012 and the same values plus the 1 1/8d typewritten set 013.
That's all good to know!
Another interesting variation, this one also from the Birmingham fair.
There's a ¾d '2' yellow-green perf 12 in G. Ricordi Set GB080, but this is a yellow one perf 10½. It's the only yellow of any of the GB5 Types, so a nice find, and a very attractive stamp:

¾d G. Ricordi yellow
¾d G. Ricordi yellow

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

The revalued 1¾d Victoria, from Set 010 ¾d might be a new Set, as there aren't currently any listed revalued ones in the Victoria listings.

Victoria stamp revalued 1¾d
Victoria stamp revalued 1¾d

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Futher re A.J. Stasny Music Co Ltd provisional values, it can be less than obvious which are handstamped, typeset or typewritten.

I think these are handstamped (set 012)

The first ½d is on an angle, characteristic of handstamping. But the second one could be typeset (I know some typesetting [e.g. NZ Road Services stamps] was done using rubber type so not as crisp as usual)
A.J. Stasny ½d Handstamped a
A.J. Stasny ½d Handstamped a
A.J. Stasny ½d Handstamped b
A.J. Stasny ½d Handstamped b
¾d heavily inked, and only inked on the edges of the raised type, implyng several stamps in the sheet were stamped after one inking until the operator decided they needed to re-ink the hand-stamp?
A.J. Stasny ¾d Handstamped
A.J. Stasny ¾d Handstamped
A.J. Stasny ¾d Handstamped
A.J. Stasny ¾d Handstamped
Likewise a variety of ink colours and depth of inking on these 1d stamps.
A.J. Stasny 1d Handstamped a
A.J. Stasny 1d Handstamped a
A.J. Stasny 1d Handstamped b
A.J. Stasny 1d Handstamped b
A.J. Stasny 1d Handstamped c
A.J. Stasny 1d Handstamped c
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

And the Stasny typewritten provisionals. These show the typicl typewriter font, and the violet blurry carbon copies.
Also in my experience, typewritten value usually don't bother with the trailing dot - so "¾d" rather than "¾d." - why type one more character per stamp than you have to. Whereas the handstamps often have the dot.
Exceptions exist of course.
A.J. Stasny ¾d typewritten
A.J. Stasny ¾d typewritten
A.J. Stasny ¾d typewritten carbon copy
A.J. Stasny ¾d typewritten carbon copy
A.J. Stasny 1d typewritten
A.J. Stasny 1d typewritten
A.J. Stasny 1d typewritten carbon copy
A.J. Stasny 1d typewritten carbon copy
That's one of the real joys of these stamps, especially the English and Australian issues - there's so much scope for philatelic specialising, and that's before you even get into the flaws and errors.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 11 Jun 2022 21:27 The revalued 1¾d Victoria, from Set 010 ¾d might be a new Set, as there aren't currently any listed revalued ones in the Victoria listings.

Image

True, not in the 2nd Edition, although I've also since turned up a couple of damaged copies on early 1950s Esquires.
Victoria 1¾d with manuscript '1'
Victoria 1¾d with manuscript '1'
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 12 Jun 2022 10:44 That's one of the real joys of these stamps, especially the English and Australian issues - there's so much scope for philatelic specialising, and that's before you even get into the flaws and errors.
Adam.
Indeed! The complexity and variety is remarkable.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 13 Jun 2022 13:42
Iain P wrote: 11 Jun 2022 21:27 The revalued 1¾d Victoria, from Set 010 ¾d might be a new Set, as there aren't currently any listed revalued ones in the Victoria listings.

Image

True, not in the 2nd Edition, although I've also since turned up a couple of damaged copies on early 1950s Esquires.
Image
Interesting that the other 3 Victoria stamps I have are also badly damaged.

Talking of damaged stamps, I was disappointed to see the damage on this new (for me) stamp issuer, which I initially couldn't identify.

Brunswick record label
Brunswick record label
But there was a bonus under the soaked off stamp; another with a different value on it.
This made identification easy: Cavendish Music.

cavendish Music stamps
cavendish Music stamps


I thought this weird combination must be a unique error, but no, it's already catalogued in Stamps on Music. The 1d violet handstamped is listed as Set 012, and the 1⅛d revalued in manuscript on top of the 012 is listed as Set 016.

Both stamps are listed as Date Unknown, so the label here gives a date for the 016 Set at least: 1927. This fits nicely with the next catalogued Set, 017, c1928, where the 1⅛d is revalued by handstamp in violet.

There's another Perf oddity with the stamps too. Both are listed as perf 12, in fact all the Cavendish Sets are perf 12, but both my 1⅛d and the 1d are 11 x 11, so it seems these 2 scrappy stamps turned out to be quite useful after all!
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

This was another new find for me at the Birmingham Fair, but not a new find for the catalogue, despite my initial excitement, but a nice rare stamp anyway: David Worton Set 010 ½d blue.

Worton stamp ½d
Worton stamp ½d


I wonder if the typeset value with a serif font is new though:

Worton stamp detail, serif ½d
Worton stamp detail, serif ½d

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Another new one for me. The Lareine Set 013 ¾d typewritten is not particularly rare and this example is not even in particularly good condition, but deserves to be seen enlarged, I think, as it's a lovely design, rather unusual, and the detail is very fine. The main circle is 17mm diameter, the rope is 0.77mm thick, and the 'copyright' letters are a mere 0.6mm tall!

Lareine stamp ¾d
Lareine stamp ¾d


I wonder if there other copyright stamps with even smaller lettering on. The later Set, 020, has the same sized letters:

Lareine stamp
Lareine stamp


Speaking of lovely designs, the British music publisher Sheard & Co stamp is a beauty, dating from 1913-14.

There's only one stamp listed for Sheard & Co (with a variation in perfs): Set 010 ½d deep purple. Usually, I'd say, punching out detracts from the stamp but here it enhances the design perfectly! Actual size: 16.5mm.

I'd like to think the puncher took great care to get it just right like this...

Sheard stamp ½d
Sheard stamp ½d

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 14 Jun 2022 01:21
Talking of damaged stamps, I was disappointed to see the damage on this new (for me) stamp issuer, which I initially couldn't identify.

Image
But there was a bonus under the soaked off stamp; another with a different value on it.
This made identification easy: Cavendish Music.

Image


I thought this weird combination must be a unique error, but no, it's already catalogued in Stamps on Music. The 1d violet handstamped is listed as Set 012, and the 1⅛d revalued in manuscript on top of the 012 is listed as Set 016.

Both stamps are listed as Date Unknown, so the label here gives a date for the 016 Set at least: 1927. This fits nicely with the next catalogued Set, 017, c1928, where the 1⅛d is revalued by handstamp in violet.

There's another Perf oddity with the stamps too. Both are listed as perf 12, in fact all the Cavendish Sets are perf 12, but both my 1⅛d and the 1d are 11 x 11, so it seems these 2 scrappy stamps turned out to be quite useful after all!
Right again Iain, all the CMC ones are in fact p11, typo missed in both editions.

The 1⅛d manuscript is not a revaluation but a new value for the manuscript set 011, which is dated as c.1926.

Some more examples:
Cavendish Music Co ¾d large font
Cavendish Music Co ¾d large font
Cavendish Music Co ¾d small font
Cavendish Music Co ¾d small font
Cavendish Music Co 1d MS
Cavendish Music Co 1d MS
I like the CMC items as a simple but attractive design. It wasn't until I found one on a tune I could also find the sheet music for, which explained what CMC stood for.
Cavendish Music Co sheet music
Cavendish Music Co sheet music
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 14 Jun 2022 02:34 Another new one for me. The Lareine Set 013 ¾d typewritten is not particularly rare and this example is not even in particularly good condition, but deserves to be seen enlarged, I think, as it's a lovely design, rather unusual, and the detail is very fine. The main circle is 17mm diameter, the rope is 0.77mm thick, and the 'copyright' letters are a mere 0.6mm tall!

Image


I wonder if there other copyright stamps with even smaller lettering on. The later Set, 020, has the same sized letters:

Image


Speaking of lovely designs, the British music publisher Sheard & Co stamp is a beauty, dating from 1913-14.

There's only one stamp listed for Sheard & Co (with a variation in perfs): Set 010 ½d deep purple. Usually, I'd say, punching out detracts from the stamp but here it enhances the design perfectly! Actual size: 16.5mm.

I'd like to think the puncher took great care to get it just right like this...

Image

The earliest Lareine stamps are very unusual in their design. I assume the crown use is some form of reference to their name as La Reine or The Queen.

A ⅝d Sheard & Co dating from 1918 has turned up recently (thanks discogs! [you couldn't get away with that song title today]) so extending the date range of the 010 set from 1913-14.
Sheard & Co ⅝d 1918
Sheard & Co ⅝d 1918
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 14 Jun 2022 19:16
Iain P wrote: 14 Jun 2022 01:21
Talking of damaged stamps, I was disappointed to see the damage on this new (for me) stamp issuer, which I initially couldn't identify.

Image
But there was a bonus under the soaked off stamp; another with a different value on it.
This made identification easy: Cavendish Music.

Image


I thought this weird combination must be a unique error, but no, it's already catalogued in Stamps on Music. The 1d violet handstamped is listed as Set 012, and the 1⅛d revalued in manuscript on top of the 012 is listed as Set 016.

Both stamps are listed as Date Unknown, so the label here gives a date for the 016 Set at least: 1927. This fits nicely with the next catalogued Set, 017, c1928, where the 1⅛d is revalued by handstamp in violet.

There's another Perf oddity with the stamps too. Both are listed as perf 12, in fact all the Cavendish Sets are perf 12, but both my 1⅛d and the 1d are 11 x 11, so it seems these 2 scrappy stamps turned out to be quite useful after all!
Right again Iain, all the CMC ones are in fact p11, typo missed in both editions.

The 1⅛d manuscript is not a revaluation but a new value for the manuscript set 011, which is dated as c.1926.

Some more examples:ImageImageImage

I like the CMC items as a simple but attractive design. It wasn't until I found one on a tune I could also find the sheet music for, which explained what CMC stood for.
Image
Yes, lovely designs there. Set 011 yes! I saw the ⅛d in the catalogue and rushed to make the false judgement.... It's perfectly clear in the listing of course, Set 016: the ⅛d adding in manuscript to the 1d stamp...

"CMC ones are in fact p11". Well I'm glad I got that right anyway.

While I'm here: a possible new handstamped signature on S050 A.
Gramophone co, Spanish issue; 'd Ramero' (?)

Gramophone Spanish issue
Gramophone Spanish issue

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

I'm running out of possible new finds now, but here's a new perf variation, I think, for The Incorporated Society of Authors, Playwrights & Composers, Set 040.

The Set is perf 15x14, apart from the ⅞d and the 'b' variation ¾d serif font, which are both listed as perf 14 x 15.

The one on the right seems to be the ¾d 'a' small font variant, and that's coming in at the listed perf of 15x14. The one on the left is the serif 'b' variant, I suppose, but rather than the listed perf of 14 x 15, it's actually perf 13¾ x 14¼, which is not currently a listed variant for the Set.

This perf size is found in Set 041, value in manuscript in black, as a variant within sub-set B, so it's not so surprising to find it in the Set 040 as it has the same design as 041.

The Incorporated Society of Authors, Playwrights & Composers stamps ¾d
The Incorporated Society of Authors, Playwrights & Composers stamps ¾d

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

I had a remarkable stroke of luck yesterday at Battlesbridge Antiques Centre, Essex, UK. There are 80 antique shops /dealers there, and we visited every one, always with an eye open for copyright Music stamp opportunities of course. In the 80th shop, just before closing time, tucked away in a corner, I found 9 very large mechanic music rolls.

I don't know much about music rolls, but I know enough to know when something is unusual or special, and these definitely fell into that category but I had no idea just how much of a treat I was in for.

Previously I'd bought these small wooden-ended rolls from a salvage yard in Lincolnshire. It turns out Kimball organs and rolls date from the late 1800s to very early 1900s. My dealer friend is currently investigating them, and it seems they are very unusual and rare, but sadly none have stamps on, which is not surprising considering their age and the fact that it was an American company.

Kimball organ roll
Kimball organ roll

Kimball organ roll
Kimball organ roll

Kimball organ roll
Kimball organ roll

Kimball organ roll
Kimball organ roll


So initially I didn't hold out much hope for these rolls either, and didn't have time to check them properly, but bought them for interest's sake and their probable rarity.

20220618_185808.jpg


And what a great decision it was! They are Philipps Duca rolls, made in Germany, and date from 1908.

Philipps Duca
Philipps Duca


These chunky rolls are heavy as well as large, with the largest one weighing in at 1.2kg.

Philipps Duca roll
Philipps Duca roll

Philipps Duca roll
Philipps Duca roll

Philipps Duca roll
Philipps Duca roll

The metal ends are unique to these rolls:

Philipps Duca roll
Philipps Duca roll


My dealer friend is investigating these too, but early indications are that they are indeed very unusual and rare. There's very little online about them, but this site gives quite a lot of information on the history of the organs:
http://www.pianola.org/reproducing/reproducing_duca.cfm


And this site talks about the rolls; Philipps Duca Reproduktions-Klaviere Rolles, to give them their proper name.
There are 4 main colours for the rolls, and the bright pink ones are the earliest type.
The boxes of mine show their age but the rolls themselves are in basically mint condition, which is great news, as it's rare, apparently, to find these rolls in good condition.
https://www.mechanicalmusicpress.com/registry/wurlitzer/mr_po_pag_p01.htm


Now for the really great news: 2 of the 9 rolls have stamps on them: 6 stamps in all!

Stamps on Philipps Duca roll
Stamps on Philipps Duca roll


I'd never seen these kind of stamps before, and at first wasn't even sure if they were Copyright stamps, as they are larger than the average ones, with the detail measuring 2.1cm x 2.3cm but a closer look reveals the name of the German Copyright agency 'Ammre'.

I hoped they were a completely new find, but as is usually the case, Adam was ahead of me, and they are listed in Stamps on Music as Type 1a Set 010, subset A, dating from 1909 -12.

However, there's only a violet and a green listed, so the pale orange is a new find it seems.

The violet and the green stamps carry an R rarity rating, which is 'More than 2 but less than 10 known or sighted'. The example in the catalogue doesn't have the overprints shown on the rolls so I wonder, Adam, if the examples up to now were found on records rather than these rolls? The overprints (?) and handstamped letters (?) P. S and K. A. seem to be new for the set anyway.

Amazingly, this site lists the recording / release dates of all the rolls, so the rolls and stamps can be precisely dated:
D.C. roll no. 372: 25th November 1910 by Berthe Marx-Goldschmidt
D.C. roll no.869: 31st July 1911 by Felix Baer
https://www.faszinationpianola.de/en/duca-aufnahmebuch/

In addition there are intriguing numbers stamped in black too: 05 , 50 , and 35, with an even more intriguing symbol after the numbers. Any ideas??

Violet & pale orange Ammre stamps on piece
Violet & pale orange Ammre stamps on piece

Violet & pale orange Ammre stamps
Violet & pale orange Ammre stamps

Violet & pale orange Ammre stamps on piece
Violet & pale orange Ammre stamps on piece

Violet & pale orange Ammre stamps
Violet & pale orange Ammre stamps

Pale orange Ammre stamp
Pale orange Ammre stamp

The mystery symbol is after all the numbers but clearest here:

Symbol detail on Ammre stamp
Symbol detail on Ammre stamp


I was about to soak off the stamps when my wife stopped me, saying that would reduce their historical and aesthetic value. As usual, I think she's right.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Iain P wrote: 20 Jun 2022 01:58
In addition there are intriguing numbers stamped in black too: 05 , 50 , and 35, with an even more intriguing symbol after the numbers. Any ideas??


Image


Image


Image

Image

Image

The mystery symbol is after all the numbers but clearest here:

Image

Of course, it's not a mystery at all; it's the pfennig symbol :oops:
"The pfennig currency sign is a letter "d" (for "denarius") in Kurrent script with a downward swing: ₰."

I'd discounted that idea as the numbers seemed too high to be currency.

Ok ,putting the embarrassment to one side, this is actually really interesting. A quick look through the Ammre listings suggests these are the first recorded stamps with pfennig values on them. Marvellous!

So now we have four new stamps for the catalogue, rather than one: pale orange 5₰, 30₰, 35₰ and a 50₰.

This does raise a real mystery though. For this roll, it makes sense that a 55₰ payment is made up from 50₰ + 5₰ but what is the point of the violet stamp with no value on at all?

50₰ & 5₰ Ammre stamps
50₰ & 5₰ Ammre stamps


Similarly here. The 65₰ value is the sum of 30₰ and 35₰ but then the violet stamp appears redundant again.

30₰ & 35₰ Ammre stamps
30₰ & 35₰ Ammre stamps

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Iain P wrote: 20 Jun 2022 03:43
So now we have four new stamps for the catalogue, rather than one: pale orange 5₰, 30₰, 35₰ and a 50₰.

This does raise a real mystery though. For this roll, it makes sense that a 55₰ payment is made up from 50₰ + 5₰ but what is the point of the violet stamp with no value on at all?

Image


Similarly here. The 65₰ value is the sum of 30₰ and 35₰ but then the violet stamp appears redundant again.

Image

Well this is a great result: the entire original catalogue is available online (link below) and it lists the prices for the rolls, including the 2 with stamps on.

The undiscounted retail price of Roll 372 was 11 Marks:
cat2.jpg


The roll has the 50₰ + 5₰ stamp = 55₰ which equates to a royalty payment of 5%.

The undiscounted retail price of Roll 869 was 13 Marks:
cat1.jpg
The roll has the 30₰ + 35₰ stamp = 65₰ which also equates to a royalty payment of 5%.

As well as confirming that the royalty payment on these rolls was 5%, the result suggests that the violet stamp really was a zero value stamp! Most odd...
https://www.faszinationpianola.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/1908_ducaverzeichnis-1.pdf
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Wow, those are striking, and certainly right to leave on piece, especially with the tying handstamps.
AMMRE type 1a on Duca roll
AMMRE type 1a on Duca roll
AMMRE type 1a on Duca roll
AMMRE type 1a on Duca roll
AMMRE type 1a on Duca roll
AMMRE type 1a on Duca roll
To understand the unvalued violet stamp, I think it will be necessary to decipher the various handstamps.

"PS" on all six is obvious enough, being on rolls produced by Philipps & Sohne. I'd imagine the AMMRE society handstamped them before shipping ordered stamps off to Philipps. As Philipps were going to handstamp the stamps themselves once applied to the rolls, it would be odd if they also applied "PS" handstamps.

Only the unvalued violet stamps have a "KA" handstamp. Also the first roll pictured has oval hanstamps with what looks like "..-Abl." Maybe the "A" of "KA" has some link to that "-A". I can't decipher the first word, it would be nice if it started with "K". The wording on the second line looks like it starts with "K".

It also looks like that same handstamp is also on the second violet stamp under the oval Philipps one - I can see "-A" between the "K" and "A".

Good work finding the original retail price, it's great when the numbers line up!
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Thanks Adam, yes I'm really happy with these, and I've promised my wife not to mess with the stamps, now or in future!

Looking closely again following your comments, I think the first 3 letters of the unreadable lower word in the 2 ovals are 'Kla' so that would be 'Klavier(e)' [piano(s)] which is also seen on the title of the main label - Philipps Duca Reproduktions-Klaviere Rolles - so perhaps the K of the KA on the violet stamps also refers to 'Klavier':

AMMRE stamps on Philipps Duca roll
AMMRE stamps on Philipps Duca roll

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Five new provisional values for the catalogue today.

I love a bargain, and it doesn't get any better than this:

free.jpg


Not only is the 2 ⅔d a new value for Chappell Set 011 A, it's the only example in the set of a rotated value. And the sloppy pen work adds an extra element of vintage charm, I'd say!

2 ⅔d Chappell stamp
2 ⅔d Chappell stamp


The next two were on pianola rolls in Chesterfield Flea Market (UK) this week. I had to pay "top dollar" for them: £5 each with a discount of a pound for buying two.


I found a Bosworth & Co stamp a couple of years ago with a manuscript value of 4 ¼d, new for Set GB011 1925-29. Magenta:
(https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=6978221#p6978221)
And now here's a 4½d for the same set:

Bosworth & Co 4½d stamp
Bosworth & Co 4½d stamp


While checking my collection, I realised I hadn't showcased this other new value, a 3d in manuscript.
At first I thought it might be a new colour but it seems it's just a faded Magenta:

Bosworth & Co 3d stamp
Bosworth & Co 3d stamp


And the other pianola roll had this Walsh Holmes & Co stamp on it. The current highest manuscript value in Set 021 is 2¼d.
I found a 4d on a roll last year:
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=6993262#p6993262
so this 6½d is a nice further extension to the range. The stamp is small, with detail measuring just 13mm square, so it needs to be seen large:

Walsh Holmes & Co stamp
Walsh Holmes & Co stamp


The Walsh Holmes stamps are all rare, so I was pleased to find a good condition 1d Set 011 last week to replace my badly 'nibbled' one too:

Walsh Holmes & Co stamps
Walsh Holmes & Co stamps

And finally, a ¼d, a new value for B. Feldman Set 051:

B. Feldman & Co ¼d stamp
B. Feldman & Co ¼d stamp

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

All good new finds Iain. It's great when you can find them for free!

Almost free ($0.50 each at a Hospice Shop), I was delighted to find these two 45rpm 7" EPs with the Belinda Music stamps. Always a favourite of mine, being my wife's name (although her's is spelt with a "y", but near enough!)
Andre Astier EP cover
Andre Astier EP cover
Belinda Music copyright stamps
Belinda Music copyright stamps
Belinda Music copyright stamps & Essex
Belinda Music copyright stamps & Essex
Cuco Ermino EP cover
Cuco Ermino EP cover
Belinda Music copyright stamp
Belinda Music copyright stamp
I don't know if the UK or Europe went in for the practice of sticking copyright stamps on the covers of EPs and LPs - I suspect the stamp use had dimished to such an extent that it didn't occur. They are certainly a feature of 1950s-60s EPs and LPs out here.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 27 Jun 2022 19:31 All good new finds Iain. It's great when you can find them for free!

Almost free ($0.50 each at a Hospice Shop), I was delighted to find these two 45rpm 7" EPs with the Belinda Music stamps. Always a favourite of mine, being my wife's name (although her's is spelt with a "y", but near enough!)
ImageImageImageImageImage

I don't know if the UK or Europe went in for the practice of sticking copyright stamps on the covers of EPs and LPs - I suspect the stamp use had diminished to such an extent that it didn't occur. They are certainly a feature of 1950s-60s EPs and LPs out here.
Nice! Especially with 3 stamps on. By a great coincidence, I got these photos from a very helpful seller (thank you Colin) who is putting aside new finds for me. It's a new value I think, and looking the LP title up online it appears to be from 1973. I had no idea copyright stamps could be so late.

Mecolico stamp on LP
Mecolico stamp on LP

Alan McGill - Songs Of The Sawdust Trail
Alan McGill - Songs Of The Sawdust Trail


He also sent this image of a Turkish LP. An import stamp rather than a copyright stamp we think?

Turkish import duty stamp
Turkish import duty stamp

33d.jpg
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 27 Jun 2022 20:03
He also sent this image of a Turkish LP. An import stamp rather than a copyright stamp we think?

Image

Image
I note this on p253 as a tax on exported records funding Aviation Defense, mid-late 1930s, copies I've found seem to be on records pressed in Turkey.

Like this one produced by the Turkish arm of The Gramophone Co, who had a factory in Turkey after 1927.
HMV Turkey 78rpm with tax stamp
HMV Turkey 78rpm with tax stamp
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

An exciting annoucement:

Following the discovery of new stamps on the c1908 DUCA rolls, previously shown here: https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=8746241#p8746241, I contacted Marc Widuch of FASZINATIONPIANOLA in Germany, and he has thousands more rolls like this, and many have stamps on them!

We've agreed to work together on a research project to identify and catalogue the stamps, and he's already sent photos of the first 50 rolls, which I'll be working though and posting here in the coming days. I've asked Marc if he can include a scale for future images so we can identify the size and perfs of the stamps but knowing the width of the rolls I've been able to arrive at a provision calculation on most of them.

Part 1...

Roll 26148.

Ammre, Type 1a Set 010, subset A. Green. There's a entry in Stamps on Music for the stamp but without any value on it, so the 20 ₰ and 100 ₰ (pfennig) are new:

Ammre green 20 ₰ and 100 ₰
Ammre green 20 ₰ and 100 ₰

Ammre green 20 ₰ and 100 ₰
Ammre green 20 ₰ and 100 ₰

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Part 2.

Another Ammre, Type 1a Set 010, subset A, and it's the first recorded example of a blue.

Ammre, Type 1a Set 010, blue
Ammre, Type 1a Set 010, blue


And now another new find. There's one listing of a Graf stamp in the catalogue:

Graf stamp listing
Graf stamp listing


So these are new blues too!
I've asked Marc if he can date the roll, and if he has any information on the name.

Graf stamps on roll
Graf stamps on roll


Graf stamps
Graf stamps

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Part 3

There are currently only two August Cranz listing in the catalogue:

August Cranz
August Cranz


I previously showed here on the forum this rather poor condition example of a new find:

August Cranz stamp
August Cranz stamp


The stamp is large with the detail measuring 35mm x 25mm.
Google translates 'Aufführungsrecht vorbehalten' as:
'Performing rights reserved'.


We were not able to date the stamp, so the date range for all 3 stamps was unknown.

The example on this roll is similar to the green new find but the position of the writing at the bottom is different, and has G.M.B.H added, along with the same inscription as seen on the red stamp in the catalogue, Set 010 Type 1, which translates as "Not valid for phonographic reproduction through records". Another bonus to this new Set, it's in excellent condition!

August Cranz stamp on roll
August Cranz stamp on roll

August Cranz stamp
August Cranz stamp


And yet another bonus is that the stamp can now be dated exactly: 3rd May 1911. The retail price of D 16, if I'm reading that right, also helps confirm that the handwritten / stamped (?) '33' is 33 ₰, as that equates to a duty of 2%.

Aug3.jpeg

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain, this is an excellent joint initiative. Having a German expert in these rolls should also help make sense of the various handstamps (L., M, HU, S.M. etc), that I assume relate to the roll manufacturer. And getting anything dated is a big help.

AMMRE had a major revision for the second edition, it looks like another major one will be required for the third!

As an aside I'm working on an updated 8-frame exhibit of the Mechanical Copyright stamps for WPS100 in November - have to get the entry form, title page and synopsis sorted by end July. This hasn't been exhibited since 2016 when it earned Gold. I have to maintain that standard now!
I'm also doing a 1-framer on the copyright stamps off books - e.g. R.L. Stevenson and Jarrolds (for Anna Sewell). More in this thread https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=16825
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 11 Jul 2022 10:25 Iain, this is an excellent joint initiative. Having a German expert in these rolls should also help make sense of the various handstamps (L., M, HU, S.M. etc), that I assume relate to the roll manufacturer. And getting anything dated is a big help.

AMMRE had a major revision for the second edition, it looks like another major one will be required for the third!

As an aside I'm working on an updated 8-frame exhibit of the Mechanical Copyright stamps for WPS100 in November - have to get the entry form, title page and synopsis sorted by end July. This hasn't been exhibited since 2016 when it earned Gold. I have to maintain that standard now!
I'm also doing a 1-framer on the copyright stamps off books - e.g. R.L. Stevenson and Jarrolds (for Anna Sewell). More in this thread https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=16825
Yes, exciting times Adam! Good luck with exhibits. Funnily enough I found my first book copyright stamp the other day. I've seen many R.L. Stevenson books which "should" have the stamps in, but don't, for some reason (I mean they were published within the correct date range) so I was pleased to finally get one:

20220703_084624.jpg

R.L. Stevenson stamp
R.L. Stevenson stamp

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Part 4

As mentioned in the previous post, this red August Cranz It's already in the catalogue, Set 010, Type 1, 90 pf red, but the inscription in violet rather than black is new:

August Cranz stamp
August Cranz stamp


Several of the rolls from Marc have these stamps on the back, reading "Mit genehmigung [der verlagshandlung]" ("with the permission of the publisher") so not copyright stamps I suppose:

4d.jpeg

4e.jpeg


4a.jpeg
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 11 Jul 2022 04:15 Part 3

There are currently only two August Cranz listing in the catalogue:

Image


I previously showed here on the forum this rather poor condition example of a new find:

Image


The stamp is large with the detail measuring 35mm x 25mm.
Google translates 'Aufführungsrecht vorbehalten' as:
'Performing rights reserved'.


We were not able to date the stamp, so the date range for all 3 stamps was unknown.

The example on this roll is similar to the green new find but the position of the writing at the bottom is different, and has G.M.B.H added, along with the same inscription as seen on the red stamp in the catalogue, Set 010 Type 1, which translates as "Not valid for phonographic reproduction through records". Another bonus to this new Set, it's in excellent condition!

Image

Image


And yet another bonus is that the stamp can now be dated exactly: 3rd May 1911. The retail price of D 16, if I'm reading that right, also helps confirm that the handwritten / stamped (?) '33' is 33 ₰, as that equates to a duty of 2%.

Image

Knowing when an issuer changed their name helps date when it was reflected on their stamps.

These two sheet music samples (ex imslp.org) show Cranz in 1910 without, and in 1912 with GmbH.
Cranz 1910 sheet music
Cranz 1910 sheet music
Cranz Gmbh 1912 sheet music
Cranz Gmbh 1912 sheet music
So 1911 fits for the later Cranz above.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 11 Jul 2022 18:15
Several of the rolls from Marc have these stamps on the back, reading "Mit genehmigung [der verlagshandlung]" ("with the permission of the publisher") so not copyright stamps I suppose:

Image

Image


Image
I wouldn't be so sure.

Composers often assigned some of their rights (& royalties) to music publishers (if only to get published).

You'd need to see if Simrock or Peters had any copyright claim to the compositions at the time. If so, even if unvalued, they'd represent a claim to royalties and so would be catalogue-able.
As above, sheet music of time often defined copyright ownership and other publications also listed tunes and their copyright holders (which helped copyright agencies determine who they needed to contact for permission, stamps and ultimately payment - if they were so inclined)
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 11 Jul 2022 18:29
Iain P wrote: 11 Jul 2022 18:15
Several of the rolls from Marc have these stamps on the back, reading "Mit genehmigung [der verlagshandlung]" ("with the permission of the publisher") so not copyright stamps I suppose:

Image

Image


Image
I wouldn't be so sure.

Composers often assigned some of their rights (& royalties) to music publishers (if only to get published).

You'd need to see if Simrock or Peters had any copyright claim to the compositions at the time. If so, even if unvalued, they'd represent a claim to royalties and so would be catalogue-able.
As above, sheet music of time often defined copyright ownership and other publications also listed tunes and their copyright holders (which helped copyright agencies determine who they needed to contact for permission, stamps and ultimately payment - if they were so inclined)
Ah yes that makes sense. I'm forwarding all these conversations to Marc, so if he has any further information I'm sure he will let us know.

Here's another interesting stamp on one of the rolls:

Ammre  legal notice stamp
Ammre legal notice stamp


"Timbre contrôle à remplacer par un timbre licence, sans lequel la vente es legalement punissable" (Control stamp to be replaced by a license stamp, without which the sale is legally punishable.)
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Part 5

We had no examples of the AMMRE Set 010 A Type 1a, in pale orange, just a couple of weeks ago, now look what we've got!

There's the 5₰, 30₰, 35₰ and 50₰ from my 2 rolls, and now these from Marc.

First up is this very puzzling roll.

Before looking properly I thought the values were 5₰, 50₰, 100₰ and 200₰, but the values are 5, 50, 100, and 200...M. Is this M for Marks? Surely not, as that would make a duty payable of 375 Marks on a single roll! A rough calculation shows this to be around $3000 in today's money.

Ammre stamps on roll
Ammre stamps on roll

Ammre stamps on roll
Ammre stamps on roll


The next one adds to the evidence that the violet AMMRE Set 010 stamps do not carry particular values, as all examples so far seen are blank.

The orange is another puzzle though, as the number looks like 753, which again can't be a monetary value.

DUCA roll
DUCA roll

Ammre stamp
Ammre stamp


At last 2 simple ones:

Ammre stamps on roll
Ammre stamps on roll
Both the 8₰ and the 40₰ are new values for the Set.

Ammre stamp 8₰
Ammre stamp 8₰

Ammre stamp 40₰
Ammre stamp 40₰


Another new value: 80₰

Ammre stamp 80₰ on roll
Ammre stamp 80₰ on roll


Another 40₰ (?) and a new value of 2₰:

Ammre stamps 2₰ and 40₰ on roll
Ammre stamps 2₰ and 40₰ on roll

Ammre stamps 2₰ and 40₰
Ammre stamps 2₰ and 40₰
The 60₰ is new:

Ammre stamp 60₰
Ammre stamp 60₰

Ammre stamp 60₰
Ammre stamp 60₰


It's not obvious that the value is 60₰ but checking the roll against the catalogue gives the original retail price of D12 so that's a duty of 5%, which matches the percentage on other rolls.

DUCA catalogue
DUCA catalogue


More to follow...
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 12 Jul 2022 22:19 Part 5

We had no examples of the AMMRE Set 010 A Type 1a, in pale orange, just a couple of weeks ago, now look what we've got!

There's the 5₰, 30₰, 35₰ and 50₰ from my 2 rolls, and now these from Marc.

First up is this very puzzling roll.

Before looking properly I thought the values were 5₰, 50₰, 100₰ and 200₰, but the values are 5, 50, 100, and 200...M. Is this M for Marks? Surely not, as that would make a duty payable of 375 Marks on a single roll! A rough calculation shows this to be around $3000 in today's money.

Image

Image


Fascinating!
Two theories:
1. As with some postal items, one item was slated to bear the fee for a bundle (notably with Postage Due). Still a lot of Marks, and seems unlikely as the other rolls in the pile would be unstamped, so not in line with the Acts.
2. It's a roll destined for sale outside Germany so the M is for another country's currency. It would help to know the date of the roll. A candidate for instance would be Poland, who had a highly inflationary Marka from 1917, for instance. A list of currencies in Europe pre-WW1 would throw up other candidates.

It might help to determine what the handstamp WTS stands for too.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

adam78 wrote: 13 Jul 2022 09:45
Iain P wrote: 12 Jul 2022 22:19 Part 5

First up is this very puzzling roll.

Before looking properly I thought the values were 5₰, 50₰, 100₰ and 200₰, but the values are 5, 50, 100, and 200...M. Is this M for Marks? Surely not, as that would make a duty payable of 375 Marks on a single roll! A rough calculation shows this to be around $3000 in today's money.

Image

Image


Fascinating!
Two theories:
1. As with some postal items, one item was slated to bear the fee for a bundle (notably with Postage Due). Still a lot of Marks, and seems unlikely as the other rolls in the pile would be unstamped, so not in line with the Acts.
2. It's a roll destined for sale outside Germany so the M is for another country's currency. It would help to know the date of the roll. A candidate for instance would be Poland, who had a highly inflationary Marka from 1917, for instance. A list of currencies in Europe pre-WW1 would throw up other candidates.

It might help to determine what the handstamp WTS stands for too.
Great. I'll ask Marc if we can see the roll properly.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Part 6

The BIEM AMMRE BERLIN W8 with the corner N is already catalogued, X030, Type X3b, but these, taken from 3 rolls, have new handstamps on them:

BIEM Ammre stamps
BIEM Ammre stamps


And here's another Simrock, possible copyright stamp ,along with some other possibly interesting stamps:

6a.jpeg


This is a nice find, not so much for the stamp itself, which is the already catalogued AMMRE 010 Violet, Type 1a, though the handstamp on it is interesting...

Ammre violet stamp
Ammre violet stamp


...but because of the roll it is on. The first DUCA roll is dated as 22nd July 1908. This is number 4, and is dated as 8th August 1908.

DUCA roll catalogue
DUCA roll catalogue


The date range for these stamps is currently listed as 1909-12, so this one extends the range by another year.

DUCA roll number 4
DUCA roll number 4


Stamps on Music (vii) says:
"The very earliest stamps seem to have appeared in Europe shortly after the Berlin Copyright Convention of 1908. However relevant information is scant."

So this roll takes us right back to the very earliest days of Music Copyright stamps.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Part 7

Another copyright stamp perhaps?

It translates as something like:
"In addition to this control stamp, in the Netherlands, there must also be an EDIFO stamp."

It has the year 1912 on it, though the roll itself is recorded as 16th May 1911.

A.jpeg

Ac.jpeg


This stamp is already listed, as AMMRE Set 280, date 1932, Type 29 blue/green, but the overprint is new:

Ammre blue /green stamp
Ammre blue /green stamp


I haven't been able to find the date of the roll yet, but as a DUCA roll I think it will be much earlier than the 1930s. This is roll number 5286; other rolls in the 5000s are dated c1913, so this could also date from the early 1910s?

I'll add the question to the ever increasing list for Marc!
Ammre blue /green stamp on DUCA roll
Ammre blue /green stamp on DUCA roll


And this DUCA roll too:

Ammre blue /green stamp
Ammre blue /green stamp

Ammre blue /green stamp on DUCA roll
Ammre blue /green stamp on DUCA roll


Now things get really interesting. There's only the one example of the 280 Set in the catalogue, and it's 'blue/green' so the white background is new. But why are there 12 stamps on the one roll?

Also, the mysterious W T S handstamp appears on them all. Perhaps we are getting closer to the meaning of the 'M' we saw on the AMMRE 010 pale orange stamps too, as we see "2 Mill" on these.

Does this mean "2 Million" perhaps? But if so, 2 Million what? I'll ask Marc if we can see the front of this roll in case it throws further light on it.

Ammre stamp on DUCA roll
Ammre stamp on DUCA roll

Ammre stamp on DUCA roll
Ammre stamp on DUCA roll

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 14 Jul 2022 18:29 Part 7

Now things get really interesting. There's only the one example of the 280 Set in the catalogue, and it's 'blue/green' so the white background is new. But why are there 12 stamps on the one roll?

Also, the mysterious W T S handstamp appears on them all. Perhaps we are getting closer to the meaning of the 'M' we saw on the AMMRE 010 pale orange stamps too, as we see "2 Mill" on these.

Does this mean "2 Million" perhaps? But if so, 2 Million what? I'll ask Marc if we can see the front of this roll in case it throws further light on it.

Image

Image

Milliemes as in the Egyption currency unit worth 1,000th of a Pound?
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

J. Albert & Son continued.
The type 6 variants now have "PTY LTD" in the name, following the 1937 change from just "LTD". The rest of the design was unchanged.

Type 6a are the commonest, with the stamp in vermilion and the signature and printed value in green.

Set 400, 1937-42. Type 6a, perf 10, chalk-surfaced. Serif font.
¾d (note "tag on signature tail" flaw)
¾d (note "tag on signature tail" flaw)
1d
1d
1¼d
1¼d
1½d
1½d
2d
2d
2½d (note "tag on signature tail" flaw)
2½d (note "tag on signature tail" flaw)
3½d
3½d
6d
6d
"A" (for Australia)
"A" (for Australia)
Remember the values represent 5% royalties so multiply their value by 20 to get the retail price of the record. The 6d is off a roll, which if a Word Roll would have been 10% royalties.
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

As above, but perf 11.
Set 410, 1937-42. Type 6a, perf 11, chalk-surfaced. Serif font.
¾d
¾d
1d
1d
1½d (note broken S in JAS signature flaw)
1½d (note broken S in JAS signature flaw)
1¾d
1¾d
6d (note "tag on signature tail" flaw, and joined "6d")
6d (note "tag on signature tail" flaw, and joined "6d")
"A"
"A"
The 2d is so far only known unsurfaced, the 6d is known both chalk surfaced and unsurfaced.
2d unsurfaced
2d unsurfaced
6d unsurfaced
6d unsurfaced
The preceding two sets are known revalued provisionally 1950-55, all very rare.
Set 406 3¼d manuscript from 3½d p10
Set 406 3¼d manuscript from 3½d p10
Set 416 6¾d manuscript from ¾d p11
Set 416 6¾d manuscript from ¾d p11
Set 416 8¾d manuscript from ¾d p11
Set 416 8¾d manuscript from ¾d p11
Set 418 4¾d typewritten from ¾d p11
Set 418 4¾d typewritten from ¾d p11
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

Part 8

Here are some more from the early 1900s rolls.

This is another of the "possible" copyright stamps:

19tha.jpeg

19thab.jpeg

This is a nice find. It's the same design as the August Cranz discovered last year, but this time there's a value written on it: 90 ₰. The previous example had an embossed stamp on it, and the same can be seen here:

Aug. Cranz stamp 90 ₰ on roll
Aug. Cranz stamp 90 ₰ on roll

Aug. Cranz stamp 90 ₰
Aug. Cranz stamp 90 ₰



This is another promising one. I'm not at all confident with the EDIFO stamps, and it's even more tricky not having the actual stamp to check and measure, but I'm going to say it's Set 065, Type 5a and that the salmon pink is a previously unrecorded colour.

EDIFO pink stamp on roll
EDIFO pink stamp on roll


It's interesting to note how badly wrong the perforation process went too! Presumably these were on the corner of the stamp roll.

EDIFO pink stamp
EDIFO pink stamp


And there's a close up of the other stamp underneath:

19cd.jpeg

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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by Iain P »

This could be the best find on the early rolls from Marc so far.

Assuming I'm not looking in the wrong place in Stamps on Music, or these have been discovered since its publication in 2017, and assuming these ARE copyright stamps, we have here a previously unrecorded issuer and stamps!

I see online that Breitkopf & Härtel is the world's oldest music publishing house, and it was founded in 1719 in Leipzig by Bernhard Christoph Breitkopf but I can't see any reference to copyright stamps being issued. As well as the blue 50 pf stamps, there's the mystery of the "M 1" on the yellow.

The box has the date 10th June 1905. Stamps on Music says:
"The very earliest stamps seem to have appeared in Europe shortly after the Berlin Copyright Convention of 1908". So these stamps, if they are copyright stamps, appear to push back this date by three years!

Breitkopf & Härtel stamps
Breitkopf & Härtel stamps

Breitkopf & Härtel 50 pf stamp
Breitkopf & Härtel 50 pf stamp

Breitkopf & Härtel stamps box
Breitkopf & Härtel stamps box

Breitkopf & Härtel stamps box
Breitkopf & Härtel stamps box



Breitkopf & Härtel roll
Breitkopf & Härtel roll
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Re: Copyright royalty tax stamps on Records/Pianola Rolls Discussion

Post by adam78 »

Iain P wrote: 20 Jul 2022 03:09 Part 8

This is another promising one. I'm not at all confident with the EDIFO stamps, and it's even more tricky not having the actual stamp to check and measure, but I'm going to say it's Set 065, Type 5a and that the salmon pink is a previously unrecorded colour.

It's interesting to note how badly wrong the perforation process went too! Presumably these were on the corner of the stamp roll.

Image

This shade of rose is known on some exampes of the next smaller size (20mm) for issues overprinted for countries, rather than record companies. So far for Bulgaria, Italy and Turkey. Not surprising the colour now turns up on the larger 27mm design.
A nice example of a mis-perf that's distinctive enough to be desirable, especially as a corner example also.
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