Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by D.L.O. »

David Benson wrote: 12 Oct 2023 10:11 Borsac and Upobo,

The item would never pass muster by the judges at any exhibition. The 1st. thing that is checked is if a stamp has been replaced or markings altered on every cover.

At every exhibition there are many that are found, ,

David B.
Hi,

I've overlaid a green and yellow circle on the postmark. There seems to be inconsistencies in the ink from the postmark.
There is ink in the green where there should be none, and there is no ink under the yellow where there should be ink.
I've marked in blue [right image] where I think there should be ink on the perf's of the stamp.
This supports your view.
I'll let the others make their own conclusions
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by josto »

The Pom wrote: 14 Nov 2023 02:36
collectrix wrote: 13 Nov 2023 20:04
josto wrote: 13 Nov 2023 04:53 Hello,

can anyone perhaps help me with this postmark? It is a violet double circle postmark dated 19 FE 1930. In the upper part there is POST ...., I think it should be POST OFFICE, and the Town name is in the lower part, it is a name beginning with CENTRAL....!? Can anyone help me with this example? Which state used this kind of postmark? My guess was NSW or Tasmania!? Any help would be great!

Image

Image

Thanks a lot

josto

Although this is an American-style postmark with vertical date, a number of these were used in NSW in the 1940s at least. See for instance:

Image
Image from Phoenix Auctions


When I checked Phoenix's NSW post office list I found two possibilities:

Central Concord - opened 1921, renamed 1937.
Central Square - opened 1913, renamed 1933.

Of these I suspect josto's example is more likely Central Square (which was renamed to Chief Parcel Office, Sydney). However without a better strike of the postmark it is impossible to tell what the full lower text was.

Nina
Good spot. Now you mention it, I showed one similar on this thread a few years back:

Image
Thank you very much for the great detective work. I think Central Concord is quite promissing!

I found another example I`m not sure about! It is a Victoria pmk beginning with COL and from the symmetrie of the postmark I would have guessed, that there will be two more letters following the COL inscription. I`ve been looking at the possible post offices and thought COLAC might be a good contender. I`ve had a look at the phoenixauctions reference database and couldn`t find an example of COLAC that would with this small sized postmark. Any help would be great!
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by flip138 »

If the wording in Josto's earlier cancel is arranged symmetrically with respect to the date, there must be more letters after Central than could be accounted for by either Square or Concord.

Could it perhaps be something like Central Parcels Office or Central Parcels Off. ?

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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Ubobo.R.O. »

The extra letters would be NSW.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by The Pom »

josto wrote: 14 Nov 2023 17:56
Thank you very much for the great detective work. I think Central Concord is quite promissing!

I found another example I`m not sure about! It is a Victoria pmk beginning with COL and from the symmetrie of the postmark I would have guessed, that there will be two more letters following the COL inscription. I`ve been looking at the possible post offices and thought COLAC might be a good contender. I`ve had a look at the phoenix auctions reference database and couldn`t find an example of COLAC that would with this small sized postmark. Any help would be great!

Image

Greetings

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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by simon m »

Yes,similar to this without the AUS.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by GYDAM »

First Wmk 2s Roo - SPECIAL pmk.jpg
This seems to be something of a special postmark.

This 2/- First wmk Roo seems to have been postmarked at SPECIAL (?) or by a "special" pmkd 27 MR 3?. Have had this one put away in my "too hard/sort out later" box for some time.

Anyone able to throw any light, please?

Cheers, Gordon
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by BigSaint »


Gordon

I think the thread below is what you need:


https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=25560

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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by GYDAM »

Thanks, Brad. Cheers, Gordon

Received a large batch of US postal cards and covers ex an auction today - already found a couple of JFK items I've set aside for you. G.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by GB 789 »

Any help appreciated with these two cancels.

The first on the NSW 2d blue I just can’t make out, possibly N. R. (Newspaper?) or maybe a fiscal cancel as it’s not one I’ve seen before. This stamp also has very distinctive triangular/pointy vertical perfs - reminds me almost of the zigzag roulette on some Queensland stamps.
NSW N.R.R. Cancel?
NSW N.R.R. Cancel?
Second on the Tasmania Chalon, definitely a fiscal but a great cancel and much preferable to a pen cancel. What would the stamp have been used for to have that cancel? Also, was there at any time a post office linked to the Tas treasury office (and therefore a related postmark)?

Cheers.
Tasmania Treasury office cancel
Tasmania Treasury office cancel
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by bathurst stamper »

The postal marking on the NSW 2d DLR is a railway cancellation.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by arnieg1963 »

Hi

I wonder if someone can help me with this cancel.

It appears to be a “fancy” cancel in the form of a stylised tree???

Has anyone ever seen something like this before?

If I am on the wrong thread please point me in the right direction as my search “skills” have so far come up with nothing substantive.

Regards

Arnie
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Summo »

Hi all,
Having trouble accessing the Phoenix Site to check this. Hoping someone may have some clues as to this postmark. Can make out ?olan Island. Postmark dates it as 19/4/1940. Any help would be much appreciated. Regards, Summo.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by BigSaint »


Koolan Island WA.

Phoenix says Koolan Island Post Office opened on 24th June 1936 & closed on 30th September 1940. It re-opened on 1st September 1962.

I have told Woody there is a problem with the Phoenix site.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Summo »

Thanks BigSaint.
Goes to show how much we rely on the work and knowledge of others to build our own. Regards, Summo.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by RogerE »

Summo wrote: 20 Dec 2023 00:01 Thanks BigSaint.
Goes to show how much we rely on the work and knowledge of others to build our own. Regards, Summo.
Exactly! Content-rich posts on Stampboards provide that long-term refence value here. All part of preserving, sharing, and adding to the knowledge base. :D

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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by BigSaint »


Glad to help.

Here is a thread which includes postmarks from some of the lesser known Australian Islands which you may have seen:


Australian Island stamp cancels. Which are the scarce ones?

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=48267
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by mobbor »

IMG_20231229_0001.jpg
These say SOMERSET CAM 1917 and 1915.

According to Phoenix, it wasn't renamed from SOMERSET RIVER CAM until 1934.

Any assistance much appreciated.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by The Pom »

It seems the PO name and the name on the postmarker were different. There was never a Somerset River Cam CDS, and the Somerset Cam postmarker came into use around 1878 (despite the PO opening in 1864)

See here (P19 onwards):

https://www.tps.org.au/members_only/PDFs-docs/CourierDec2008.pdf
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by mobbor »

Thanks Chris.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by tascollector »

The Colonial Treasury datestamp was used to cancel stamps used to pay stamp Duty when paid to the Treasury. It serves the same purpose as the manuscript cancels which show the date in day/Month/Year format . In 1865, Tasmania introduced a 1d stamp duty on receipts over 40/- hence the many fiscal cancels seen on 1d Chalons around this time. There was no other 1d duty rate.

The most common usage seems to be to be to cancel stamps paying the 1d duty on receipts for payment of various types of Public Land rents.
For some reason I can't explain, while this date stamp is seen earlier and later than 1867, 98% of examples show the date 1867.
This datestamp is nothing to do with the Post Office, its purely a revenue cancel.
Its probably from the very first batch of circular datestamps issued in Tasmania - the Unframed type (issued 1865). Its a common cancel but if you see any dates earlier or later than 1867, these are relatively rare.

GB 789 wrote: 17 Dec 2023 09:30 Any help appreciated with these two cancels.

Second on the Tasmania Chalon, definitely a fiscal but a great cancel and much preferable to a pen cancel. What would the stamp have been used for to have that cancel? Also, was there at any time a post office linked to the Tas treasury office (and therefore a related postmark)?

Cheers.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Micky »

Happy New Year SB.

I have this piece with manuscript date and something. Anyone able to work out the writing?
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by David Benson »

Bomaderry, NSW,

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Post by Micky »

Thanks David, I guess you have seen it before :D .

Cheers
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Post by David Benson »

Micky,

no, never seen it before,

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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Ubobo.R.O. »

Isn't the first letter a P ?
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Micky »

Ubobo.R.O. wrote: 01 Jan 2024 18:43 Isn't the first letter a P ?
That's what I thought, it's a tricky one.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by David Benson »

Bomaderry is in the Illawarra district of New South Wales.

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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by BigSaint »


Phoenix says Bomaderry opened as PO 16/8/1893.

Bomaderry is a suburb in the City of Shoalhaven local government area in New South Wales. At the 2021 census, it had a population of 8,718 people. It is on the north shore of the Shoalhaven River, across the river from Nowra, the major town of the City of Shoalhaven, of which Bomaderry is locally regarded as being a suburb of the city.


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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Global Admin »

If I had guess I'd go for Bomaderry too.

Xmas time, maybe a postie spotted an uncancelled letter etc. Life moves on. :lol:
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Post by Micky »

Thanks everyone :D
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Global Admin »

Image

Guy Fawkes (2): 30mm 'GUY FAWKES/17JE35/N.S.W' on 2d Jubilee. [Only recorded date - The first offered by us. Telegraph Office.] Telegraph office - 1/11/1927; closed 6/2/1971. Estimate $A100


https://www.phoenixauctions.com.au/cgi-bin/wsPhoenix.sh/Auct ... ction=2175 - January 22, 2024 sale -


I like to think I learn at least ONE thing each day here on stampboards. After 17 years here, that is quite a few new things. :)

Well today I learned there was a Post Office here in my home state called 'GUY FAWKES'! Total news to me, as it is on the front cover of the next PHOENIX AUCTIONS sale, lot 830, so I looked it up -

This appears to be the only example known, and at $A100 - $US67 I'd suggest it is a snip for a cancel collector, a KGV collector, and 1935 Silver Jubilee collector, or a 'Horses on Stamps' collector, or Gold Mining topical collector etc.

For anywhere near as low as $A100 I'd suggest it is the bargain of the sale! A unique cds from Tasmania or South Australia or Victoria or Western Australia etc, you can add a ZERO or more to that! It is no longer a town, just a vague locality, it appears.

http://guyfawkesheritagehorse.com/history/

Major Edward Parke named the Guy Fawkes River after camping nearby on Guy Fawkes Day, November 5, 1845. Gold was discovered in the late 1800s at Ballards Flat and Dalmorton, with the latter once supporting a town of 3,000 people during a short gold rush. A couple of building ruins remain today and old stockmen huts and yards are still present throughout the valleys.


The Horses

Long before The Guy Fawkes was a National Park it was inhabited by local graziers and from the early 1800’s to the 1940’s, horses were specifically bred for the remount trade. The Colony’s first exports were “War Horses” and in 1834 the first horses left Australia consigned the British Army in India. The Army’s criteria was that:

‘the horse be entire, sound in wind and limb, over 3 years and under 7 years, over 14hh and under 15hh, half thoroughbred and able to carry 17 stone.’

A good horse fitting the above description would fetch the breeder around 10 pounds – the equivalent of a year’s wages for most farmers. Pastoralists intentionally turned out well bred stallions and mares in the wilderness areas, and a mixture of bloodlines were introduced to strengthen certain characteristics.



Many will not realise that the horse KGV is sitting on in this stamp was called a 'Waler'. Named after New South Wales. It was the favourite horse of KGV and was a gift from the Nation. I wrote about this in 'Stamp News' -

https://www.glenstephens.com/snapril20.html


Few know that King George V’s favourite horse - shown here on these stamps, was called “ANZAC” and was of a very hardy local breed called a “Waler”. This breed was preferred by the Military - and Australian bush stockmen, for their hardiness and endurance.

Stars of Beersheba Palestine 1917.



“Walers” were a niche breed of horse used by light horsemen in the campaigns in the Boer War, and in Middle East during the First World War. The light horse combined the mobility of cavalry with the fighting skills of infantry. They fought dismounted, with rifles and bayonets. However, sometimes they attacked on horseback, like in the famous hand-held bayonet charge against the Ottoman Turks at Battle Of Beersheba in Palestine in 1917.

During the Boer War, Australia dispatched 16,314 “Waler” horses overseas for use by the Australian Infantry Forces. In the First World War, 121,324 were sent overseas to the allied armies in Africa, Europe, India and Palestine. Of these, 39,348 served with the First Australian Imperial Force, mainly in the Middle East, while 81,976 were sent to India. In the Middle East they were superior to Camels as a means of transporting large numbers of troops.


King George V riding horse “ANZAC”


These horses were called “Walers” because, although they came and were bred in various parts of Australia, they were originally sold through New South Wales. They were a sturdy, hardy breed, able to travel long distances in hot weather with a heavy load, but drinking little or no water.

Horses usually need to drink about 30 litres of water a day. However, during the WWI campaigns they went for up to 2 days without water in the hot sun, while carrying a load of 130 kilograms, comprising rider, heavy saddle, rifle and 90 rounds of .303 ammunition, equipment, and food and supplies etc.

Shown nearby is an actual gelatin silver photographic print showing King George V (1865-1936) riding “Anzac” during an inspection of Horse Guards and Life Guards in June 1927, after presenting the regiments with New Colours.

The King is dressed in full military uniform, including insignia, medals, and a cocked hat with plumes. It was used to design the stamp set, with small changes made, as you can see.


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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Peter Gibson »

The Guy Fawkes will be a rare item - telephone offices often are.

Phoenix had at least three in its last auction, with all going for more than $400 each (although some would have had extra because they were ERDs).

Conversely, the datestamp for the old TO at Monga (near Braidwood) is more common and pops up at auction from time to time, usually under $100.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by josto »

Hello,

Some interesting information about those telephone offices! I lately found this KGV stamp with a perhaps interesting postmark. Unfortunately it is only a poor part strike, but I think it might be a NSW postmark of "Elong Elong Railway Station (TO 16/1/1922; closed 7/5/1923.)"!? It is dated JA 23, so it fits into the opening period. As it was an TO only for 1½ year, I`d guess it would be quite scarce!? Could I be right with this postmark?
Australia postmarks606_crx1.jpg
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by bathurst stamper »

Hopson & Tobin tell us that the CDs were not supplied to Elong Elong Railway Station.

I'm not sure if it's a New South Wales cancellation. I've drawn a blank in my spreadsheet.

Someone will spot the RLY, which I'd suggest will be a clue as to which State it's from.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by RedKiwi »

bathurst stamper wrote: 11 Jan 2024 18:55 Hopson & Tobin tell us that the CDs were not supplied to Elong Elong Railway Station.

I'm not sure if it's a New South Wales cancellation. I've drawn a blank in my spreadsheet.

Someone will spot the RLY, which I'd suggest will be a clue as to which State it's from.
As a NZ collector, I'm envious of our Aussie cousin's excellent research materials on Australian obliterator cancels. We have sold information for location identification in the wonderful Postage Stamps of NZ volumes, but we do not have consistent comparative data on scarcity for obliterators (we do for later postmarks thanks to people such as Richard Wooders).

We are therefore left to speculate on the scarcity of many NZ oblits based on anecdotal observations. I suspect there a fair few very rare ones sitting un-noticed in collections as a result.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by BigSaint »


So do we discount Victoria & Queensland :?:
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Kainnikanada »

BigSaint wrote: 11 Jan 2024 21:17
So do we discount Victoria & Queensland :?:
bathurst stamper wrote: 11 Jan 2024 18:55 Someone will spot the RLY, which I'd suggest will be a clue as to which State it's from.
Brad, you have neglected to read "bathurst stamper's" post.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Global Admin »

Peter Gibson wrote: 10 Jan 2024 20:19 The Guy Fawkes will be a rare item - telephone offices often are.

Phoenix had at least three in its last auction, with all going for more than $400 each (although some would have had extra because they were ERDs).

I just went and looked those 3 up.

https://www.phoenixauctions.com.au/cgi-bin/wsPhoenix.sh/Auct ... ction=2174

My view still holds with these 3 as it does with GUY FAWKES - they are not strikes from a newly engraved, almost never used, crisp cds - it appears clear.

Indeed they are all 3 cancelled onto stamps that already had been thru the mails, affixed to white paper, and a crude 'zinco' type cds added it seems to me to 'tie' them?? All 3 have other cancels on them! Pretty lazy fakes - these stamps are only pennies each mint. BOMBAY has traces on a roller cancel, the other 2 light cds.

'HIGHER MCDONALD' is especially crude as can be seen.

All 3 seems to be from the same maker I'd suggest.

higher.JPG
Capturerr.JPG
NEW_SOUTH_WALES_Datestamps_Higher_Mcdonald_2414918.jpg
NEW_SOUTH_WALES_Datestamps_Louisiana_2415125.jpg
louisiana.JPG
NEW_SOUTH_WALES_Datestamps_Bombay_2414917.jpg
.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by bathurst stamper »

The dates of all three are pretty close. The same can't be said for their locations!

If they are genuine, could they have been provided to a collector back in the day?
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Kainnikanada »

bathurst stamper wrote: 12 Jan 2024 07:36 The dates of all three are pretty close. The same can't be said for their locations!

If they are genuine, could they have been provided to a collector back in the day?
As someone who is frequently looking at NSW cut-downs and New Guinea date-stamps, along with these hi res scans posted here, these 3 strikes are 110% legit. Note the clean corners of the 2nd 'A' of 'LOUISIANA'. The base of that 'A' is comparable also to RABAUL strikes from New Guinea circa 1920s.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by BigSaint »

Kainnikanada wrote: 12 Jan 2024 02:38
BigSaint wrote: 11 Jan 2024 21:17
So do we discount Victoria & Queensland :?:
bathurst stamper wrote: 11 Jan 2024 18:55 Someone will spot the RLY, which I'd suggest will be a clue as to which State it's from.
Brad, you have neglected to read "bathurst stamper's" post.
Rod, Of course I read it. I even searched Phoenix *Railway* & *ng Railway*.

The only one to fit in my opinion is "Elong Elong Railway Station", as Josto said, but Bathurst Stamper has said this Telegraph Office, according to Hopson & Tobin, never has a cds.

So from my collection I found two examples of RLY, one from each of Victoria & Queensland. I suggested that from these examples, the postmark in question, was not then from these States. I am still looking for a RLY among my collections without any success. :D
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Peter Gibson »

Hi Josto

I'm skeptical about Elong Elong Rwy. I think the word before "Rwy" has 4 letters not 5; also, Hopson and Tobin stated that Elong Elong Rwy was not issued with a CDS (although granted there were lots of things they didn't see).

I do tend to agree that the word possibly ends in "ong", and that the name of the railway is two words. The last letter of the first word is consistent with a "G".

Purely considering names of offices that existed, the one I think best fits is Bung Bong Rwy, which was a post office in Victoria 1877-1940. Your example looks very similar to the reference example on the Phoenix web site, for the CDS used after 1913 (if I read dates correctly):

https://www.phoenixauctions.com.au/cgi-bin/wsPhoenix.sh/viewcds.w?po=928

It will be interesting to see what other insights people have.

Rgds

Peter
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Brad,

I am preparing an article on a short-lived post office for BSAP and ACCCNSW. There were no online records at the NAA. They are now available since I paid to have the 3 files scanned for my research.

In Hopson and Tobin the recorded date-stamp used was only partially correct. Some of the information was overlooked notwithstanding strikes of a relief date-stamp, not attributed to this office, were evident in the records. What other post offices could have incomplete or incorrect data? Just proves H&T has errors as does Phoenix and anyone else who publishes.

No record of a date-stamp usage by H&T is not necessarily definitive. Note all the corrections/additions Phoenix periodically offers.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Ubobo.R.O. »

Peter.

Your thoughts on Upper McDonald, Louisiana & Bombay ?

To me they all look post event creations.

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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Does this provide any additional clues? Seems indecipherable. Possibly ? BONG?
Australia postmarks606_crx1 -01.03.jpg
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Ubobo.R.O. »

2024-01-12_091111.jpg
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Kainnikanada »

It is a match Terry!
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Peter Gibson »

If the TO postmarks are fakes, someone has gone to the trouble of matching each to the known types of CDS used by these offices. H&T state that Bombay used type 2C in an early period, and type 2C is what is presented by Phoenix (arcs in the middle of the letters, dot after W in NSW). Similarly Louisiana and Higher McDonald used type 2A CDS (essentially the same as type 2C but with a dot after the W in NSW), and the Phoenix examples seem to be type 2A.

Both these types of CDS were issued by 1935, 2A being the earlier type. Type 2C seems to have been the favoured type for issue in 1935 (Bombay) and type 2A seems to have been a favoured type for issue when Higher McDonald and Louisiana offices were opened (1916 and 1927). All consistent here.

The dates on the postmarks are in the right time period. All 3 of these offices were open in 1935. Bombay and Louisiana were only telephone exchanges by then, but exchanges could still have postmarks. H&T do qualify this by saying that some dates they list for TXs are approximate, such as where an office had a single subscriber and they ceased to subscribe. Clearly these 3 offices did have a CDS that H&T accepted.

I think if they are fakes, the person responsible would have to have a detailed knowledge of NSW postmarks, already have similar examples, or had a lot of free time. It would be hard to be this accurate in "targetting" the right offices, CDS and dates to fake, even if you had access to a copy of H&T. Hmmm......

The one less convincing element of these CDS is how good the strikes are, and how well positioned on the stamps. I'm only guessing but I think TO/TX offices would process very small volumes of items for cancellation, and the person in charge of the office may not have had formal training in PO activities. This would suggest that CDS from these offices could be less clear. For the office I mentioned in my previous post - Monga - the examples I have seen tend not to be centred on the stamp and are a bit blurry (although the latter could also be the age of the CDS).


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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Ubobo.R.O. »

The positioning of the stamps, ie the gaps all around the stamps and the whiteness of the paper on two of them, ring alarm bells for me.

Knowing how the Queensland fakes were made also bothers me. All the postmarks on the Queensland fakes were sitting in a drawer at the GPO having been returned when the offices closed.
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