Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by bathurst stamper »

Further to what Kainnikanada said above, and I'm sure there are folks here that will know this already, but periods of use as stated in Hopson & Tobin are sometimes solely derived from the papers held at the National Archives.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Global Admin »

Peter Gibson wrote: 12 Jan 2024 10:44
If the TO postmarks are fakes, someone has gone to the trouble of matching each to the known types of CDS used by these offices. H&T state that Bombay used type 2C in an early period, and type 2C is what is presented by Phoenix (arcs in the middle of the letters, dot after W in NSW). Similarly Louisiana and Higher McDonald used type 2A CDS (essentially the same as type 2C but with a dot after the W in NSW), and the Phoenix examples seem to be type 2A.

Both these types of CDS were issued by 1935, 2A being the earlier type. Type 2C seems to have been the favoured type for issue in 1935 (Bombay) and type 2A seems to have been a favoured type for issue when Higher McDonald and Louisiana offices were opened (1916 and 1927). All consistent here.

The dates on the postmarks are in the right time period. All 3 of these offices were open in 1935. Bombay and Louisiana were only telephone exchanges by then, but exchanges could still have postmarks. H&T do qualify this by saying that some dates they list for TXs are approximate, such as where an office had a single subscriber and they ceased to subscribe. Clearly these 3 offices did have a CDS that H&T accepted.

I think if they are fakes, the person responsible would have to have a detailed knowledge of NSW postmarks, already have similar examples, or had a lot of free time. It would be hard to be this accurate in "targetting" the right offices, CDS and dates to fake, even if you had access to a copy of H&T. Hmmm......

The one less convincing element of these CDS is how good the strikes are, and how well positioned on the stamps. I'm only guessing but I think TO/TX offices would process very small volumes of items for cancellation, and the person in charge of the office may not have had formal training in PO activities. This would suggest that CDS from these offices could be less clear. For the office I mentioned in my previous post - Monga - the examples I have seen tend not to be centred on the stamp and are a bit blurry (although the latter could also be the age of the CDS).

Peter

All 3 stamps had already been used previously as I pointed out! Very obvious on all 3.

Other genuine cancels can be seen on all 3, then they were glued to bits of white paper and these dubious 'zinco' style cds added. World's dumbest faker. :lol: :lol: :lol:

None of the cds look anything like what a new, barely used, steel cds will look like.

Image
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by josto »

Ubobo.R.O. wrote: 12 Jan 2024 10:14
Image
Hi Terry,

great detective work! Thank you very much!

Greetings

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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by BigSaint »

Ubobo.R.O. wrote: 12 Jan 2024 10:14
Image
Kainnikanada wrote: 12 Jan 2024 10:29 It is a match Terry!
Well done Terry, I now know why my filter search on Phoenix didn't identify this one of Bung Bong Railway Station.
Bung Bong & Bung Bong R S
Bung Bong & Bung Bong R S
:D
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by BigSaint »

Ubobo.R.O. wrote: 12 Jan 2024 10:58 The positioning of the stamps, ie the gaps all around the stamps and the whiteness of the paper on two of them, ring alarm bells for me.

Knowing how the Queensland fakes were made also bothers me. All the postmarks on the Queensland fakes were sitting in a drawer at the GPO having been returned when the offices closed.
And the most likely way these cancels were done at the GPO in Sydney.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Ubobo.R.O. »

Another opinion on the NSW postmarks referred to above.
2024-01-13_114220.jpg
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Global Admin »

Capture.JPG

OMG .. this is why stamp collectors will never become dealers.

Pollyanna stuff, it really is.

All THREE stamps had previously been cancelled before 'SOMEONE' added these well inked full face 'zincos' to them. I repeat, the world's dumbest faker. A MINT copy is only a few pennies. Then at least the worn and wobbly looking uneven letters is all we had to go on - conclusive in itself. NO steel cancel ever made by the PO had a wobbly deformed 'M' like this.

If he cannot see that, even when it is pointed out clearly to him, and indeed he argues argues it looks kosher, I do not want to be the one buying Tony Curtis cancel collection. The mind boggles. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Image
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Ubobo.R.O. »

HIGHER McDONALD PO NSW date-stamp impression.jpg
Higher McDonald..jpg
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by josto »

Hello,

It`s only a small poor part of a postmark, but can anyone tell me what this PR stands for? Something with "POSTAL"? or is it short for PORT? Any suggestions would be great!
Australia postmarks609_crx.jpg
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by josto »

Ubobo.R.O. wrote: 13 Jan 2024 20:36
ImageImage
Hi Ubobo!

that`s a good help as comparison!

I`ve had this NSW postmark for quite a while and I wasn`t sure if it is from Upper McDonald or from Higher McDonald, so now I`m quite sure it is from the first opening period of "Upper McDonald"! I`d guess it`s not all too common!
Australia NSW postmark Upper McDonald RARE.jpg
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Ubobo.R.O. »

Yes. I would agree with you there. Postmark known in use from 1914.
Map location of the four Macdonalds.
Map location of the four Macdonalds.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Ubobo.R.O. wrote: 13 Jan 2024 20:36
Image

Does this not belong in Glen's zinco strike category? Someone destroyed a perfectly good postal document.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Phoenix Auctions »

I have read this thread with some bemusement. There are a few points which should be taken into account before coming to any conclusion about whether these 1935 TO (Telegraph or Telephone Office) cancels are genuine or not.

Every TO was issued with a datestamp. These datestamps were used regularly, but mainly on TO administration documents, which have a very low survival rate. This is in contrast to ROs (Receiving Offices) which were only issued with a datestamp when they could justify it. Generally where a cancel is recorded from an RO it is because they were also a TO or they had previously been a PO and still had the datestamp.

Postmark, and Registration Label, collecting was quite strong in the 1930s, and this is evident in the articles in Australian Stamp Monthly from this period. Collectors such as Charlie Fawcett, Alec Gavin, John Webster and others recording new finds etc regularly. These collectors would often write to, or visit, small offices to get samples of the postmarks for their collections, and just as modern collectors do, they requested nice clear strikes on the stamps they sent.

If you looked at the postmark sections, in our auctions, you will see there are quite a range of 1935 cancels, most are from normal small POs, many of these have come from the same collection that the TO cancels were in. While I do not know who the original collector was, I am reasonably sure that the 2nd last owner of these postmarks had them in his collection for decades. I am also certain that he never manufactured these postmarks.

Forgeries are created to make money. I find it difficult to believe that anyone made one-off forgeries in the exact style of the cancels of the period. I do not know how they would make enough money to justify the time and resources needed to engrave these cancels, particularly when they are only likely to have been able to sell them for a few £s at best.

For my part I am very confident that these cancels have not been forged and are genuine and almost certainly collected by a contemporary collector who wrote off to, or visited, these offices to get these examples for their collection.

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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by mobbor »

IMG_20240120_0001.jpg
Mt. Buffalo. I hope you can see it o.k.

According to Phoenix it was renamed Mt. Buffalo Chalet as an R.O. in 1910 and a P.O. in 1914. The date here is 1929.
Any suggestions much appreciated.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by josto »

Hello,

can anyone assist me with this postmark?

It seems to show: NAPOLI-POR.., and at the bottom ...EST..., dated 29/5 /29.

My guess is, that it might be a foreign postmark, but I`ve no clue! Would be nice, if anyone could help me with this example!?
Australia postmarks616_cr.jpg
Australia postmarks616_crx.jpg
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by BigSaint »


Mobbor

Phoenix says the earliest recorded date for Mt Buffalo Chalet is 30th March 1940, so they continued to use the Mt Buffalo postmark after the name change:
Mt Buffalo Vic Aust is type 10B used in 1932 with inverted 2 - 23rd August 1932
Mt Buffalo Vic Aust is type 10B used in 1932 with inverted 2 - 23rd August 1932
Your example Mt Buffalo Victoria is type 10A used from 1910 to 1931.

I understand this happened quite often.

:D
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by The Pom »

josto wrote: 20 Jan 2024 21:41 Hello,

can anyone assist me with this postmark?

It seems to show: NAPOLI-POR.., and at the bottom ...EST..., dated 29/5 /29.

My guess is, that it might be a foreign postmark, but I`ve no clue! Would be nice, if anyone could help me with this example!?

Image

Image

Greetings

josto
Hi Josto,
It is indeed a foreign cancel, from Italy.

See here:
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=40807
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by mobbor »

Thanks Brad, but I'm left confused as usual. When I look at Phoenix it says nothing about the continued use of Mt. Buffalo under Mt buffalo or Mt. Buffalo chalet.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Peter Gibson »

I've also had difficulty in matching up Mt Buffalo (Chalet) postmarks over the years. My assumption is that when the name changed officially, a new handstamp wasn't issued because the new name was close to the old name - this seems to have happened in a few cases. I don't know whether this was policy, or just practicality/laziness!
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by BigSaint »


mobbor & Peter,

No it doesn't but if you subscribe to Phoenix you can see the dates when the usages of date stamps have been seen:
Mt Buffalo/Mt Buffalo Chalet
Mt Buffalo/Mt Buffalo Chalet
Whether it was laziness or something else, remember that this was happening between the "Wars" & during the Depression so resources were scarce.

If I look at Manchester Road/Bentleigh North/McKinnon I don't see these anomalies. But If I look at Aerodrome Essendon/Essendon Airport/Melbourne Airport, I do.

I recommend if you don't already subscribe to Phoenix that you so without delay. :)
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by bathurst stamper »

I can add the following to the record for Napoli, but on a New South Wales stamp on a 1909 postcard.


1909 Napoli CD 1d RR Back.jpg
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Ubobo.R.O. »

And subscription is free. 8-) Here's an image I found.
The Chalet. Mt Buffalo.
The Chalet. Mt Buffalo.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by mobbor »

Brad & Terry: thank you.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by josto »

Hello,

I had posted these two in the South Australia postmarks update thread, maybe this thread is the correct thread for such questions!

Can anyone perhaps help me with these two diamond numerals?

For the first one I thought it might either be numeral 122 or numeral 128!? I tend to say 122!?

Image

Image

For the second one I thought there might be several possibilities, either numeral 181,numeral 187, numeral 131 or numeral 137!? I tend to say 137 or 187, but I`m still struggling between these two options.

Image

Image

Any help would be great!

Thank you very much!

josto
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by AMark »

Hi josto,

I've played around with the images a little and here are the results.

The first one looks like 122 and the second 187.

Hope this helps.
122.png
187.png
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by josto »

Hi AMark,

Thank you very much for your help!

Greetings

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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Tod.Moore »

Hello everybody. I would appreciate any help on this one, which looked like a slogan cancel to me at first.

Australia 1931 Airmail stamp. 6d. Grey-brown. ACSC 144.
Australia 1931 Airmail stamp. 6d. Grey-brown. ACSC 144.

The first word appears to be CHIEF but the other word(s) has me stumped. Cheers, Tod. :)
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Tod,

"CHIEF/PARCELS OFFICE"
Chief Parcels Office
Chief Parcels Office
Don't know if each city had one.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by BigSaint »


Nor do I but here is a selection from eBay:
Chief Parcels Office - NSW
Chief Parcels Office - NSW
Chief Parcels Office - Sydney
Chief Parcels Office - Sydney
Chief Parcels Office - Melbourne
Chief Parcels Office - Melbourne
Chief Parcels Office - Launceston
Chief Parcels Office - Launceston
The second one above looks like the one shown in tod.moore's query above.

It would seem likely that GPO's & other major office like Launceston, Canberra & Newcastle would have had a Chief Parcels Office. :D
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Peter Gibson »

There certainly were CPOs in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane. There was not a CPO in Canberra, apparently not even a parcels section that had its own postmark - the volume of parcels is much smaller, and was probably capable of being handled between the mail exchange and the back of post offices including the GPO, even today - In 1971 Canberra had a population of about 130,000, to Sydney's 3 million, and Canberra had no major industries that would be sending parcels. The only big "business" in town, the public service, would have overwhelmingly been receiving and sending letters, not parcels. If we go back another 20 years to 1950, the difference in population was even greater, since Canberra only had a population of 20,000, compared to Sydney's 1.8 million - very few people to be receiving or sending lots of parcels. Certainly growing up there, parcels were infrequent, usually from interstate relatives for birthdays and Christmas.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by rehautala »

I found this stamp with a "King's Island" Tasmania cancel.

I have read here that some cancels on Pictorials are scarce. I have not personally seen this one before and wonder if someone could tell me if it has any special value. I don't have a resource for Tasmania cancels.
IMG_0043b.jpg
IMG_0043.jpg
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Peter Gibson »

I don't think it is particularly rare, particularly on pictorials - from sales records. I certainly didn't pay much for my copy. It seems a King's Island post office was opened in 1892 and, except for a short break, remained that name until 1903 when it was renamed King Island. However, they didn't immediately replace the old postmark. The story goes that about 1910 the postmark was "altered" locally to remove the 's at the end, not with total success. The name was changed in 1917 to Currie.

Here is a link to a quick history of King Island post offices. There will be other works available

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/264818025.

Some postmarks on pictorials are rare. Although depends on when the office opened and closed, and the volume of postal transactions (which in turn can depend on how remote the office was). Pictorials were issued from 1899 to 1912

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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Summo »

Hi all,
Hoping that I can tap into the collective knowledge of the group for some clue as to what the attached postmarks are or might be. Thanks in advance. Regards, Summo. First one appears to be 2 WEST and might be N.S.W. Second one is Travelling Post but not sure where it’s been used
IMG_3675.jpeg
IMG_3676.jpeg
IMG_3677.jpeg
IMG_3678.jpeg
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Strikes of Travelling Post Offices (Trains) aka TPOs.

I created a wiki of Peck's publication on the TPOs of NSW; here for more information:

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=63779

1. TPO 2 West NSW (Peck 2W8)
see post 64 of 160

2. "TRAVELLING P.O....No.1..."
I couldn't find this strike in Peck. Probably not a NSW TPO.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by bathurst stamper »

The second one is a NSW cancellation. The N.S is visible at the top.

But is there any way to work out which cancellation it is?
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by mobbor »

Maybe: 1. N.S.W. T.P.O. No 2 WEST;
2. N.S.W. Travelling Post Office.
(?)
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Kainnikanada »

The second strike is probably this one - Peck L-75A (I missed seeing the 'S'):
Peck TPOs -01.01.jpg
Peck TPOs -01.02.jpg
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Summo »

Thanks Kainnikanada, Mobbor and Bathurst Stamper. Was unaware of the NSW TPO wiki. A truly valuable resource. Stampboards never ceases to impress with members’ preparedness to share their knowledge. The 2 West appears to have a rarity rating of 6 which is about middle of the road but not sure how to equate that with the ‘R’ standard for postmarks in general and BN’s. Regards, Summo.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Kainnikanada »

Summo,

We must thank Richard Peck for granting permission to post scans of his publication in the form of a wiki.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by bathurst stamper »

Summo wrote: 27 Mar 2024 21:46 a rarity rating of 6 which is about middle of the road but not sure how to equate that with the ‘R’ standard for postmarks in general and BN’s.
That's a very good question.

Getting enough of a strike of a TPO cancellation showing the vital information may be a more difficult proposition than getting a full numeral on a stamp.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by letuspray »

I was wondering if anyone would be kind enough to give me a second opinion on the following as can't quite work them out.

The first slightly grubby Queensland 1897 2d looks possibly like Townsville duplex code 5 (4R?) but can't quite see the final letters.
SG234_5005_dup.jpg
The second 1882 1d is a Port Douglas datestamp type I think dated October 1886, but is it the the rarer type?
SG166_5005_rare_cancel.jpg
Many thanks for any advice.

Chris
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by letuspray »

Apologies I realise I should have posted this in the Australian States cancel thread instead
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by BigSaint »


Queensland - Cooyar or Goowarra?
IMG_20240412_0002.jpg
IMG_20240412_0004.jpg
IMG_20240412_0003.jpg
Or something else?
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Ubobo.R.O. »

2024-04-12_184009.jpg
2024-04-12_184101.jpg
Your postmark is Goowarra Brad.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by BigSaint »


Thank you Mr Puffin. :D
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by eharper »

I think this is Mount Cuthbert but I don't see a listing for it in red. Does anyone know how scarce this is?
Mount Cuthbert.jpeg
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Ubobo.R.O. »

2024-04-19_190310.jpg
Red ink for telegraph business or if black ink unavailable. Note location.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by eharper »

Thanks. Too bad it's not a clearer cancel.
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by arnieg1963 »

Hi

Not posted for a while but came across this cancellation a few days ago.

I believe it reads ?.?. Touchi Creek but have no idea what the ?.?. Stand for🤷🏻‍♂️

Any help would be gratefully accepted and any idea of rarity factor please.

Regards

Arnie
IMG_5268.jpeg
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Re: Australia stamp cancels and postmarks that have you beaten!

Post by Ubobo.R.O. »

Your postmark reads T.O.TONGHI CREEK VIC.

Here is an example of the postmark with the TO removed.
2024-04-27_210343.jpg
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