Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

JUST NOTICED I USED SAARGEBEIT INSTEAD OF SAARGEBIET IN EARLEIR POSTS.

BIET not BEIT

Pronounced ZAR GEB BEET!!!!!

SORRY
.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

A rarer one with tilted T.

Scan of Handbuch Type J Tilted T in SAARGEBIET on Michel 32.

Image




Letters in SAARGEBIET altered.

Scan of Handbuch Type P Lower part of S in SAARGEBIET on Michel 39.

Image



The Michel 50 overprints are differs in that there is the SAARGEBIET at base along with overprints above and differentially applied.




Michel table for Mi 50 to 52 for overprint errors.


Image





Scan of shifted and very heavy overprint on 1921 Michel 50, 20Pf on 75Pf.

Image








Scan of shifted overprint on 1921 Michel 50, 20Pf on 75Pf (ii)

Image
.









Scan of inverted overprint on 1921 Michel 50K, 20Pf on 75Pf.


Image







Scan of double overprint on 1921 Michel 50DD, 20Pf on 75Pf.


Image[/ur]


Here are two of the higher mark values with Michel XIII flaws (R and G opened).

Scan of Michel 41 XIII.


[url=https://imgur.com/VNvMaLw]Image



Scan of Michel 42 XIII.


Image



Scan of Michel 41 normal overprint.

Image
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Sorting and discovering.

Some time has passed since last I threaded! So see is a bump.

Hopefully new readers might see the thread, read the thread and participate.

I want concentrate a little on finds showing rarer overprints for Sarre Germania.

Ages ago in the thread I showed details taken from Handbook on Sarre by Paul Staedel. (Sat Dec 23, 2017 13:03:47 pm).

Here is a repeat of some details shown concerning the Type I stamps.

Details of Type 1 Sarre Germania overprints from Handbook on Sarre by Paul Staedel.


Image




Details of Type 1 Sarre Germania overprint values from Handbook on Sarre by Paul Staedel.

Image




Handy in showing varieties not seen in Michel as well as measurements to confirm validity of Sarre overprints as there are many forged.

The diagrams are generally poor so I thought it useful to show some possible variants in the flesh.

This section will mainly look at the Handbook details showing for Z & ZI and Y & YI and stamps that I have possibly showing these features Z, ZI and Y, YI are not shown in Michel).

Note that the multipliers for Z, ZI and Y, YI are 20-50 the price of the ´normal`stamps.

I assume that the higher multipliers are for the scarcer stamps with respect to shades.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Stamps found with interesting Z and Y features.

Stamp 1. Sarre overprinted Michel 7a I with ZI (Handbook defined).

Image


Stamp 1. Enlarged Sarre overprint on Michel 7a I with ZI (Handbook defined).

Image

Notes.

The CV here depends very much on the shade.

Michel lists three shades.

CVs below reflect NHM, HM, and used.

Mi. 7a.I blackish grey violet €1.30, €0.60, €1.30
Mi. 7b.I blackish violet with violet black €18, €8.50, €20.
Mi. 7c.I dark blue violet €50, €25, €130

It should be pointed out that the Michel catalogue for Saar was made in 2004 and that prices may well be increased by way of market examination and that review by Michel would certainly increase CVs!

I note here that we have a single broken line on the right with maybe a hint of a line inside this? (Z?).
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Stamp 2. Sarre overprinted Michel 7a I with ZI (Handbook defined).

Image


Stamp 2. Enlarged Sarre overprint on Michel 7a I with ZI (Handbook defined).

Image



Notes.

As above for Stamp 1. the CV here depends very much on the shade.

Michel lists three shades.

CVs below reflect NHM, HM, and used.

Mi. 7a.I blackish grey violet €1.30, €0.60, €1.30
Mi. 7b.I blackish violet with violet black €18, €8.50, €20.
Mi. 7c.I dark blue violet €50, €25, €130

I note here that we have a single almost unbroken line on the right Red arrow illustrated).

There is also a broken ´e` (yellow arrow) corresponding to variety P in the diagram from Handbook for Type I Sarre. I am not sure how the multiplier works as P is x 10?

Note stamp 1 and Stamp 2 show no dash below the main black bar at the base of the stamp, Types II and III both show a dash.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Stamp 3. Sarre overprinted Michel 8 I with ZI (Handbook defined).

Image


Stamp 3. Enlarged Sarre overprint on Michel 8 I with ZI (Handbook defined).

Image



Notes.

Michel lists only one shade and in fact the Mi.8 has only Types I and III.

CVs below reflect NHM, HM, and used.

Mi.8 I dark cobalt with (dark) violet blue €1.30, €0.60, €1.30

I note here that we have a single almost unbroken line on the right (yellow arrow).







Stamp 4. Sarre overprinted Michel 15 with ZI (Handbook defined).


Image



b]Stamp 4. Enlarged Sarre overprint on Michel 815 with ZI (Handbook defined). [/b]

Image


Michel lists only one shade and in fact the Mi.15 has only Types I and III.

CVs below reflect NHM, HM, and used.

Mi.15I €1.20, €0.60, €1.50.

Notes.

I note here that we have a single almost unbroken line on the right (yellow arrow ZI).

Note also that there is a break in the centre of the main black bar (Type A Michel & Type A Handbook).

This is a common in all values.

Interesting here combined with the ZI!
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Stamp 5. Sarre overprinted Michel 14 I with Y I variation (Handbook defined).


Image




Stamp 5. Enlarged Sarre overprint Michel 14 I with Y I variation (Handbook defined).

Image


Notes.

Michel lists two shades for Mi.14 and has only Types I and III.

CVs below reflect NHM, HM, and used.

Mi.14a I red-lilac, purple lilac €750, €350, €900 (I would say very rare). I will see if I have one (normal) later!
Mi.14b I dark grey lilac with grey purple €1.50, €1.30, €1,60.

I note double vertical lines on left.

The diagram in the Handbook is not clear at all.

I am assuming this is Y I from left sided positioning.
Last edited by johnrcrow on 14 Feb 2020 06:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Stamp 6. Sarre overprinted Michel 5 I with Y variation (Handbook defined).



Image



Image


The Michel shades and types are a little complicated so i add a table(doctored) to show this.


Table for Mi.5. Types and shades, Sarre overprinted Germania CVss.


Image


Note that the CVs for Types II and III can be very high.


Notes

This stamp has the Y and also a flat topped S. This is the L in Handbook.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Stamp 7. Sarre overprinted Michel 5 I with Z I variation (Handbook defined).


Image



Enlargement Sarre overprinted Michel 5 I with Z I variation (Handbook defined).

Image

Note considerable damage to the Sarre as indicated with arrows.

Notes.

I have not indicated shades for stamps shown for Mi.5, I will come back to this later.





Stamp 8. Sarre overprinted Michel 7 I with Z I and A variations (Handbook defined).


Image


Enlargement

Image

Notes.

Zi and A.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Stamp 9. Sarre overprinted Michel 12 I with Z I variation (Handbook defined).


Image


Enlargement


Image


Michel lists three shades.

CVs below reflect NHM, HM, and used.

Mi. 12a.I (dark) reddish carmine €13, €7, €10
Mi. 12b.I dark carmine red €1.50, €0.70, €1.60.







Stamp 10. Sarre overprinted Michel 14b I with Z (?) variation (Handbook defined).



Image


Enlargement

Image

I believe we have two vertical lines here hence a Z.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

There more, now established how to look.


Three Sarre overprinted Germania with Handbook Z, ZI overprints.

Image

Not so sure about the top right stamp, there looks to be 2 lines so maybe a Z?


Table for Mi.6 shades and types (sorry for quality).



Image

I have 6cI, very distinctive red with the glazed finish.


Comparison of Stamp 1 and 2 Mi.8.I with a third Mi.8.I stamp showing shade differences.

Normal scans compared.

Image




Overview of three Mi. 8 I.stamp with shades enhanced.

Image

Stamp I and 2 as in thread above are left and centre. New stamp on right. All show ZI.



Enlarged sections ( yes the right breast cover) enhanced.

Image




Back to shades from Michel as previously shown.

CVs below reflect NHM, HM, and used.

Mi. 7a.I blackish grey violet €1.30, €0.60, €1.30
Mi. 7b.I blackish violet with violet black €18, €8.50, €20.
Mi. 7c.I dark blue violet €50, €25, €130

New stamp is definitely b or c!
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Having just purchased a few thousand Sarre and Saargebiet overprints I am sorting.

Here are two good finds that stand out.

Scan of a pair of 1920 Germania Saargebiet postage stamps with Michel 4III FIV variation showing diagonal overprint.
Image



Scan of reverse of a pair of Germania Saargebiet postage stamps with Michel 4 III FIV variation showing diagonal overprint.
Image

The stamps were proofed by BRAUN BPP and the CV in Michel is €900 NHM ( I assume for single) so this pair €1800?.

(I am waiting eagerly for the Michel update on pricing since the last one was in 2004 for the Saar stamps).




Scans (front and back) of a Saargebiet postage stamp with Michel 4 FII variation showing bar on top of stamp and overprint Sarre below.

Image

Image

Proofed by BRAUN BPP and Dr. Dub.

German for this variant is Verschobener Aufdruck, Balken oben, Schrift unten (FII).

Michel lists the 5Pf as having the FII on all three types (I, II and III).

The type is not indicated on proofing.
The shade (a) is.
Mi. 4 comes in 2 shades.

The CVs (to illustrate scarcity) for 4 I FII is €180 NHM, for 4II FII €550 and 4III FII €200.

Earlier in thread I showed dimensions expected from overprints.

This stamp measured:
Bar 18 mm
Sarre 10.6 mm
S height 3.2 mm
e height 2.1 mm

Such measurements are important with many stamps to separate the Type II and Type III where there are large differences in CV (hence scarcity). Also to identify false overprints.

Using a computer and enlarging the stamps allowing detailed measurements to be made begs the question as to how some of the earlier measurements were established and with what accuracy?

So looks like a Type I. So 4 I FII at €180 NHM.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Here is a nice piece with excellent full cancel- Proofed by BURGER BPP.

Scan of Sarre Germania overprinted Postage stamp Type I III PF Y on piece
Image


Pencilled in III indicating Michel Type I III.

Checking measurements we have:

Sarre 10.3 mm
S 3.1 mm
e 2.1 mm
Distance from base of letters of Sarre to top of black bar 8.5 mm.

Note the type III have a wide range 6.2 to 9.0 mm whereas the Types II and II are tighter 7.8 to 8 Type I and 7.4 to 7.8 Type II

My measurements Indicate Type III

Note the ´S`is Type I PF Y (eroded top).

CV Mi. 1 III PF Y €22, €12 & €35 NHM, HM and used respectively.

Mi.1. III on letter €40 (no details for a piece).
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Here is a more complicated situation.

Scan of suspicious Sarre Germania overprinted Postage stamp Type I II
Image

Proofed by J. BOCKING.
Measurement as shown on scan.

These indicate a Type II along with the line below the black bar (arrow a).

However, I am sceptical on this one.
Why?

The CV for genuine Type II mint is €450.
As such these are a target for forgeries.

So, I am concerned by the overprint, particularly the first ´r`in ´Sarre` that seems to be angled backwards. The black bar is also short of the expected 18 mm.

I added another definitive Type I Sarre (highlighted in yellow) on the back scan.


Scan of Sarre overprints compared to suspicious overprint in a scan above.
Image

Suspect stamps Sarre in centre.
Above is more heavily inked Sarre from a Type I, below an more optimally inked Sarre from a Type I. (Type I and II overprints are the same.

There may be some value in looking harder at how the inks are dispersed examining high magnification scans. More on this later .

Suspect stamp has definite lean in first ´r`.
SA is linked in suspect stamp.


Not easy this one.

I will go with the proofing.... why not at €450!
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Here is a much easier one.

Scan of Mi. 1. PF A Sarre overprinted Germania postage stamp.
Image

Note the proofing here is an old style symbol.
Note the trek in centre of the black bar indicating PF A.
Very common variant.


Sarre 10.7 mm
Bar width 8.0 mm
S 3.3 mm
e 2.4 mm
Distance from base of letters of Sarre to top of black bar 7.9 mm.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

As a rest for the moment from the Sarre, a few interesting SAARGEBIET overprints.


Scan of Germania Saargebiet postage stamp with inverted overprint Michel 35K
Image

CV €80 NHM.




Scan of Germania Saargebiet postage stamp overprint Michel 35 with ´I`of SAARGEBIET missing.
Image

Evauated as K in Handbook.

Michel 35 III ´fehlendes oder fast fehlendes I in Saargebiet`
missing or almost missing ´I´in Saargebiet.

CV €12, 9, 15 (NHM; HM; used).


Scan of Germania Saargebiet postage stamp overprint pair Michel 35 with SAA missing from SAARGEBIET (left stamp).

Image

Not in Michel of Handbook.

CV ?




Scans of Germania Saargebiet postage stamp overprints showing large shifts.
Michel 39.
Image



Michel 33.
Image



Michel 35 x three examples.
Image
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Here is a nice find.


Scan of Germania Saargebiet postage stamps, pair of Michel 32 with Handbook flaw UII on right hand stamp
Image








Scan of three Germania Saargebiet postage stamps Michel 35 with reverse prints on gum side .
Image

The stamp on the left is interesting since the front shows a full SAARGEBIET (as do others) but only the ´SAARGE` on the back! I think you can make out the full overprint on front of the left hand stamp.

Rare? This is only one I have seen so far.








Scan of Germania Saargebiet postage stamp Michel 35 with flaw X, lower part of ´S`in SAARGEBIET broken
Image







Scan of Germania Saargebiet postage stamp Michel 39 on piece with flaw X, lower part of ´S`in SAARGEBIET broken
Image

P indicates equivalent flaw in Handbook.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Back to Sarre.


One area of concern with assessing genuine overprints is their possible variation.

Having a single stamp is all very well, but how does one assess the possible minor variations.

One way is to look at a block or greater where there are consecutive stamps and then see what variation there is.

Here is a 20 stamp sample of Michel 3 the 3Pf .



Scan of 20 block of Mi. 3. Type I Sarre overprinted Germania postage stamps.
Image

The first thing is to identify obvious flaws as is shown below.





Scan of 20 block of Mi. 3. Type I Sarre overprinted Germania postage stamps with flaws identified.
Image


I am more interested in details of the Sarre Overprint to try and answer some questions about the reliability of proofed stamps .



Here are enlargements of all the Sarre overprints in the block.

Enlargements of Sarre overprint in 20 block of Mi. 3. Type I Sarre overprinted Germania postage stamps.
Image



I have used arrows in bluish and to show flaws and yellow to note small differences.

I will not enlarge further but conclusions are that there is some variation.


Of interest after looking at my Sarre collection:

a. The slight slanting of the second ´r`s, in some frames.

b. The deformation of some ´e`s, in some frames.

c. Minor bites from the ´a´s in some frames.

d. The variation in the base height of the two rr´s, lower second r is common.

e. Inking differences causing fill-in of letters.

The lay down of the ink is interesting and will look at my proofed false stamps later as well as those I deem fakes to see if one can see differences in inking patterns.

Understandably, the high Mi. CV types are the main targets.


All this helps assess possible annoyances in assessing genuine overprints.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Just a reminder of the criteria being used to assess the Sarre overprints.

Complications arise when one has a lot of these stamps to look at.

The Handbook criteria are far more detailed than those of the simplistic Michel.

Michel assesses Type I as having a Sarre length of 10.7mm and Type II the same with the small line under the black bar.

For Type III Michel lists the Share length as 10.5mm!

I think that there is a need for the Handbook criteria and they help in assessing the spectrum of varieties seen.

Scan showing Handbook criteria for Types I and II Sarre overprinted Germania postage stamps.
Image




Scan showing Handbook criteria for Type III Sarre overprinted Germania postage stamps.
Image

The figured are distances in mm.



Basically the Types I and II are very similar.

There is a slightly different range of the distances measured from the base of the Sarre lettering to the bar.

The main difference is the presence of the small horizontal line under the black bar.

Type III shows many differences to I and II.

Notes
I find that the height of the ´S` in ´Sarre` is most useful along with the distance from base of letters Sarre to the black bar.

Types I and II are consistently 3.2mm or above (my measuring).

I say this as there is an overlap in the length of the Sarre when distinguishing Type II and III and additional measurements can effect the identity.

Another useful comparator is the length of the black bar, although I am finding variation even for Type I from the expected 18mm where all the other featured measured distances are consistent with Type I.

The same is true for Type II black bar lengths.


Type III has a shorter black bar and invariably the distance from the Sarre to black bar is low to high (see diagram for range). Again useful in separating the Type II and III.

Note that many of the Type IIs have high CVs.


Measuring notes.

I use a free program for Mac called Inkscape.
I scan stamps at 600 and can easily measure to a high accuracy any part of the stamp as I can enlarge the image to a high level.

Problems can arise due to the variation in inking of the stamp.

Basically identifying the edge e.g. of the beginning of the ´S`to the tail end of the ´e`can be a problem or from base of ´e`to top of black bar.

There are excellent stamps where the edges are clear and stamps where this not true.

As this is a detailed study it might be relevant to say that not all the criteria given in the literature are correct.

I am observing variation and this affects identifying some stamps.

Of course the lettering has to be correct, but once again there is variation in this in the face of ideal measurements.

Obvious fakes can trapped through measurement as well as more subjective examination and assessing fake from genuine is the game.

I show below more problematic stamps, hopefully to illustrate what I am talking about.

I hope that followers of this thread are not too bored.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

I shall start with an obvious faked stamp.

Here I believe the fakers want us to think this is a Mi. Type II NHM pair with a CV of €450 for a single.

Scan of fake Sarre overprint on 1920 Germania postage stamp
Image

Glen´s blind nun can see that the overprint is rather odd as compared to most others.

I am showing this as one extreme example.

The letter are pretty, cleanly overlaid but way off the norm.

The distance measured for the Handbook criteria are shown on scan.

So Sarre length is 11.5, very long.
The S is short of the 3.2 expected for a Type II.
The black bar is short (though I see this type of length in genuine stamps).
The small line under the black bar is a trivial slur.

In short a faked attempt at a Mi.1 II.

I may be wrong and would gladly offer this up for sale if someone thinks it is genuine.

I have picked out ten stamps to show problems in identifying stamps.



Scan of five Mi. 1. and five Mi.2. Germania Sarre overprinted postage stamps selected for further study.
Image

I add one more thing before delving into these ten.

It helps greatly where there is a flaw in the stamp associated with the relevant Type.

Some flaws are ´created`but generally such interventions are easy to spot as compared to genuine flaws on stamps.

However, there are some hard to assess examples.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Dealing with stamps on top row, left to right and then bottom row, the same.

Scan of Stamp 1. Sarre overprinted Germania postage stamp in detailed examination of ten stamps in scan above.
Image

Starting with an easier one.

Measurements fulfil Handbook criteria for Type I almost perfectly.

Sarre looks good.

Clean overprint, although the ´e`centre is inked in.

The lines under the black bar are interesting but confidence in being Type I is high.






Scan of Stamp 2. Sarre overprinted Germania postage stamp in detailed examination of ten stamps.
Image

Much trickier stamp this one.

a. Sarre length creeps into Type I and II range.
b. Black bar length OK for I and II.
c. The ´e` to top black bar is OK for I and II.

So far I or II.

d. The line under black bar is a real problem. Short (expected length should be 3mm and close to black bar.

e. Sarre lettering moderately heavily inked the auld be affecting measurement.

f.The ´S`is oversized (should be 3.2mm)

g. Also the second ´r`has distortion at base and ´e`is slightly different to that expected (maybe).

Conclusion?

An attempt at producing a Mi.I II through adding the line under the black bar?

My measurement of Sarre length is wrong due to over inking and stamp is a I. III?

Is it a I II with great CV?









Scan of Stamp 3. Sarre overprinted Germania postage stamp in detailed examination of ten stamps .
Image

a. Sarre looks good, 10.7mm for I or II. However a weak lower curve on ´S`(break).

b. ´S `height within acceptance for I or II.

c. ´e` to bar OK within acceptance (I am starting to accept some variation within measurement acuity ).

d. Black bar well short of the 18mm however, note the piece at left side that is missing from black bar. I measured beyond this to end of ´prongs`. Still short.

Conclusions.

Looks like a Type I, but atypical.

The black bar indent is not recorded in Michel or handbook though Handbook refers to short black bar for flaw I A (7.0mm) (vertical break in centre of black bar) and I E (7.2mm left hand of black bar with angled top piece missing).







Scan of Stamp 4 . Sarre overprinted Germania postage stamp in detailed examination of ten stamps .
Image

a. `S`and Sarre lengths fit I and II.

b. Black bar length is short of 18mm.

c. The ´e` to black bar is short of 8mm for I or II.

d. Line below black bar is OK.

e. First ´r`in Sarre is slanting backwards.

f. `S`and ´a`are fused (over inking?).

Conclusions.

Feels wrong (can I say that?).

Another attempt at making a Mi.2 II?

Is it 2 II?

Feel free to comment anyone.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Easier one.


Scan of Stamp 5 . Sarre overprinted Germania postage stamp in detailed examination of ten stamps.
Image

A Type I.

Note shaped Sarre, vertical ´rr. `S`3.2mm.

However note the black bar length and ´e`to black bar is a little low.

I am assuming that I am not taking the edge of inked areas exactly so maybe within tolerance limits?










Scan of Stamp 6 . Sarre overprinted Germania postage stamp in detailed examination of ten stamps.
Image

A Michel 2 now.

Here the Type II is at a premium so looking for manipulations on this theme.


This stamps has:

a. Type III measurements for Sarre, ´S`and ´e`to black bar.
b. It has line below the black bar as for a III.
c, The black bar was measured 18mm but the bar is not easy to measure.
d. Sarre looks fine.


Conclusion.

A Type 2a III.






Scan of Stamp 7 . Sarre overprinted Germania postage stamp in detailed examination of ten stamps.
Image

Looks good in measurement terms as Mi. 2 I.

The ´S´is large.

Conclusion.

Mi.2 I. But note the black bar has vertical line in centre so we have flaw A so Mi. 2.a I A.

Generally the black bar from centre to left side is messy.

Noted for future stamps.








Scan of Stamp 8 . Sarre overprinted Germania postage stamp in detailed examination of ten stamps.
Image

This one interests me.

a. Measurements support Type I or II.

b. Line below the black bar is there but rather thick, so maybe a II....hoping.

c. I do not like the Sarre letters.

d. The second ´r`is long and leans slightly backwards. (I have proofed examples where this occurs so maybe allowable).

e. The ´S` is distorted.

f. Ink has invaded the ´a`and ´e`even though the inking dos not look too heavy.

Conclusion.

A possible 2 II?
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Finishing on a pair!

Scan of Stamp 9/10 . Sarre overprinted Germania postage stamp in detailed examination of ten stamps
Image

Adjacent stamps.

a. ´S`measurement complicated by weak top.

b. Type II measurement for black bar, distance from ´e`to black bar and Sarre length.

c. Faint line below black bar.

Conclusion.

Mi.2 III.

Helped by right hand stamp having Handbook flaw DIII (curve at base of black bar in centre).

I do not like the ´rr`that have widening bases and out of typical shape.

Conclusion

Mi.2 III?

I hope this has exercise given some insight into my deliberations.

More to come later.

John
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by maptrekker »

Excellent analysis of the stamps. It got me thinking about the Saar overprints again.

I think the filled-in "a" and "e" are just accumulated old ink. That is why a seemingly lightly printed overprint could still have filled-in letters. A scrubbing with a soft metal brush like copper would do the job of cleaning the letters.

The slanting letters do bother me. The type are held together extremely tightly, or the type would fall out. I do not understand why this slanting is happening -- attempted fakes or otherwise.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks maptrekker.

Having a good few of these to look at makes a difference in analysis.

The sloping letters for instance.

I see these in some blocks where three might have ´perfect`Sarre and one has a messier Sarre with a bit of a tilt.

The shapes too, fatter ´r`s in one stamp next to good looking Saar next... Look at the 3pf block I posted earlier, how would we treat some of the stamps as individuals?

It does complicate the issue of faking.

Obvious fakes are usually at fault in several areas and measurements confirm this.

The measurement criteria quoted may need some adjustment as I can measure to maybe 0.05mm with accuracy and I doubt past methods did this though we see the figures of 3.2mm and 0.3mm etc. Accuracy of overall measurements might revise our ideas as to what is (was) the normal range of measurements.

I am going to look at multiples in an attempt to log differences between the letters, I think that these contain the internal controls needed for the exercise.

Saying all this it must be remembered that most stamps can be identified more easily and I am showing, so far, some that are not so easy.

The main efforts to forge do concentrate on the high CV stamps as I said above.
Why would anyone forge the cheaper ones?

Cancels too are a source of forging and used examples are mostly at a premium, again mainly for the high CV stamps. Not an easy area for study but I will re examine the proofed FALSCH ones I have.

Anyway nice to prompt interest.

Lets have more scans from you map and anyone else with examples.

l will start a ´what Sarre is this` service if anyone is interested.

Just post nice large scan here and I (we) can assess.

It its time that Michel updated their catalogue.

John
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Examination of blocks/multiples

Starting with a more startling one.

Scan of 4 block of Mi.12. Sarre overprints on German Postage stamps.

Image

Why starling?

Here is scan with measurements superimposed on stamps.


Scan of 4 block of Mi.12. Sarre overprints on German Postage stamps showing measurements.
Image


Notes.

a. The bars below black bar indicate Type II or III. No problem so far.

b. The two stamps on the top line are similar in that the Sarre measurement is in range of Handbook II and III, the e to bar distance is around 8 (supporting either II or III), the S height indicated III and the black bar favours II!

c. However, the bottom two stamps show measurements at odds to the top 2 particularly for the base of Sarre letters to top of black bar.

Top stamps 8.1/8.2, bottom stamps 6.8/6.6!! This these favour strongly a Type III.

The problem here is that if a single stamp was taken as from top row one would maybe favour a Type II (even with short S) whereas a stamp the from bottom row would be assessed as Type III.

Interesting to see whether I can find anymore of this variability.

Comments welcome.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Here is another 40Pf block.


Scan of second 4 block of Mi.12. Sarre overprints on German Postage stamps.
Image



Scan of second 4 block of Mi.12. Sarre overprints on German Postage stamps with superimposed measurements.
Image

a. Similar result for all four stamps.

b. The ´S` is over 3mm indicating Type II with some one results.

c. The top two stamps have e to black bar distance at high end of values in Handbook but these cover II and III Types. (Note mistake on right hand stamp for e to black bar, should read 7.8 not 18 as in scan)

d. Black bar lengths in bottom 2 stamps indicate more a Type III.

e. The block was proofed as Type 2 by BRAUN BPP.

I induced earlier that flaws help.

Look at bottom right stamp. This shows ´S`with missing or almost missing top.
This S is associated with Type III as PF Y.

The proofed sample cites it as 12II P.

Here is a scan of composite of the ´S`alterations associated with Type II and III flaws in Sarre overprinted Germania from Michel and Handbook sources.
Image

The proof indicates II P, the S looks more like the IIIY (to me). However , neither are perfect.

Pity that the diagrams are not very good.

The plot thickens.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

More detailed look at overprints.

For the example above (block of 4) I selected the Sarre and enlarged then as well as concentrated on the ´rre`.

Scan of enlarged Sarre and rre of 4 block of Mi.12. Sarre overprints on German Postage stamps.

Image



Image

I have not highlight anything on th scans.

Basic impression is that once one gets close one sees a great deal of variation particularly in the second ´r` and the ´e`.

This variation is seen in all examples from now on.

So far I think that if you do not see this roughening and variation the stamps may be forged!

I await more results.






Scan of a Mi.13xII 50Pf block of six Sarre overprints on German Postage stamps.
Image

This shows a Type II block containing Mi.13x II PF A examples (helpful).

Also shows is an aberration on top left stamp (black streak on left under black bar).





Scan of a Mi.13 50Pf block of six Sarre overprints on German Postage stamps showing enlarged Sarre and rre areas.

Sarre areas.
Image

rre areas.
Image

I have highlighted a few of the variations seen in the Sarre scan.

The enlargements may help illustrate extent of variations.

a. First ´r`fairly consistent though some flat topped.

b. The second ´r`variable, including leaning and broken examples.

c. Some of the ´e`s are battered, one at least with a break on top.

Again we see ragged and variable overprints on the same block!
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Scan of a Block of six 60Pf. Mi.14 III Sarre overprints on Germania Postage stamps.
Image

The line below the black bar is very faint bit is definitely in evidence, this is complicated by the shift in overprint upwards so that the line is over the ´CHE`region or runs along the border line.

Image




b]Scan of a Block of six 60Pf. Mi.14 III Sarre overprints on Germania Postage stamps with superimposed measurments[/b].
Image



Scan of a Block of six 60Pf. Mi.14 III Sarre overprints on Germania Postage stamps showing comparative close ups of Sarre overprint.
Image

a. Measurements are consistent on each stamp with Type III.Note ´S´is 3mm.

b. Note that the e to black bar forty three stamps is around 7 as against the top three of around 8 (less typical for Type III).

c. Sarre close ups show variation in particular the stamp on left of the top row where the ´r´s have a larger gap that on other stamps (arrow 3).

d. Some of the ´r`s are fattened at base (arrow 5).

e. There are breaks in some ´e`s (arrow 2).

Basically and again, we have considerable variation close up.
Individual stamps taken from he block may well cause problems.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Scan of 35Pf Mi.11 I Block of five 35Pf. Sarre overprints on Germania Postage stamps.
Image




Scan of 35Pf Mi.11 I Block of five 35Pf. Sarre overprints on Germania Postage stamps showing enlargements of `Sarre` and ´rre` regions.
Image


The scans show better on the 35Pf.

a. Second ´r` variable.

b. Variation in the ´e`s and break in one ´e`.

c. Some ´r`s leaning/tilted.

Again variation.

The ´r`and ´e` patterns now emerging to help us with forged stamps?
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Scan of 35Pf Mi.11 I Block of four 35Pf. Sarre overprints on Germania Postage stamps.
Image

Shows flaws PF E, PF M and PF A (as illustrated).





Scan of 35Pf Mi.11 I Block of four 35Pf. Sarre overprints on Germania Postage stamps showing measurements
Image

I think I was expecting blocks to show stamps with this consistency.

So we have close measurements for parameters.

a. Sarre 10.5mm to 10.7mm.

b. S height at 3.2mm.

c. e to bar 8mm

d. Bar length at 17.8 to 17.9mm.

e. No line below the black bar.




Scan of 35Pf Mi.11 I Block of four 35Pf. Sarre overprints on Germania Postage stamps showing close ups of ´Sarre`and ´rre`regions.
Image

Less messy than the blocks but still we have some significant variation in the second ´r` including tilting and breakage.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Finishing off for now with a larger bloc of Mi.12. 40Pf.

System now established.

Scans of 40Pf Mi.12bII proofed block of eight 40Pf. Sarre overprints on Germania Postage stamps with ´Sarre´ and ´rr`regions enlarged below.

Image


Image



Image

More variation. The ´r`s and ´e`s again.


Computer hot and tired, so off to bed.

Get back with comments, this is becoming a modern art exhibition.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by maptrekker »

Here are some examples I have been able to come up with:

Saar Mi 6 I PF A

Image

Saar Mi 7 I PF L (very sloppy printing)

Image

Saar 7 I PF N I (with some additional damage to the "e")

Image

Saar Mi 8 I PF O I

Image
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Nice range map.

The sloppy printing (nice term) is typical of the flattened ´S` and I have several examples like yours.

The NI (for others information) is a vertical break at top of the ´a`.




This is a first attempt at trying to characterise the Sarre overprints as to their authenticity when in different impressions.

I will repeat this exercise later.

Scan of enlarged Sarre overprints from proofed examples of Sarre overprints on Germania Postage stamps.
a. Ideal clean overprints.
Image

Nice and clean impressions.
Variation in the ´r`s and ´e`s apparent.



b. Overprints thickened.
Image

Defined edges of the Sarre overprint seen inside the widened ink areas.
Some widening of the base of the ´r`s altering shape.



c. Overprints thick.
Image

As above bit now more ´bleed`into letters.
Appearance of patches in the overprints


Just a quick look, as I said I will better deal with this later.

I will also show even more inked-in Sarre´s where there is significant filling of the letters and e.g. `topping out`and flattening of the ´rr`s.

All proofed as indicated in the title of the scan.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Not so easy.

A 2½Pf Michel 2. examination.


The Michel CVs for the 2½Pf Michel 2., are shown below.

2a dark olive grey
NHM, HM and used prices respectively in € (Euro) as of 2004 catalogue (latest).

2.aI. 30, 12, 35
2.aII. 1200, 600, 1200
2.aIII. 2, 4, 7

2.b dark green grey

2.bI. 240, 120, 300
2.bII. 4200, 2400, 4200
2.bIII. 110, 65, 140


a. Notice is the scarcity of shade b as reflected in high CVs.
b. Note that Type II examples are scarce in both shades.
c. Note increased CV for used examples.

Since the CVs are high then these are obvious target for the forger of overprints and cancels, or of both.

I am showing a few examples of the 2½Pf Michel 2.

Scan of card of Sarre overprints on 2½Pf Michel 2., on Germania postage stamps (1920).
Image

These one problems and I will try and indicate why using enlargement of the stamps shown above.




Scan of block of four Sarre overprints on 2½Pf Michel 2., on Germania postage stamps (1920).
Image



Scan of block of four Sarre overprints on 2½Pf Michel 2., on Germania postage stamps (1920) with measurements and descriptions.
Image

I have tried here to show where measurements fit with Type I or II or III ´standards`as set out in the Handbook.

a. Note from overall scan that there is variation in the appearance of the Sarre between top and bottom rows.
b. Note thick topped ´S` in top row,
c. The measurements show variation between stamps.

The yellow arrows group the measurements that indicate a particular type (II) and the red arrows are evidence against the type (as indicated by yellow arrows).

So stamps in left column indicate a type II but the base of Sarre to black bar distance is short of the 8mm shown in Handbook.

The top stamp in that column also has a long bar under the black bar of 3.3mm (ideal would be 3).

The right column shows a Sarre of 10.3mm (indicating Type III) and for top stamp in that column other evidence supports this (except the S height that is indicative of Type II).

The bottom stamp in right hand column is almost the same.

Conclusion. Is this a type II or III ( or neither)?

I have found that the height of the S is an excellent marker for separating Type II and III.

As this block has the type II 3.2mm high ´S`then I would go for the type II.

However is this fake? The stamp is proofed but as is usual there is no indication of the type.

I have not found anything like a shade b as yet so I conclude this is a 2a II. NHM with CV of 1200! Well I can try.

What worries me is the Sarre 10.3 to 10.5 and the base of Sarre to black bar variation. Interesting and a them that goes with the other stamps looked at from initial scan.

More on comparing the Sarre overprints on this block later.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

ERROR.

I jumped ahead of myself and stated the block stamps were proofed.

They are NOT proofed.

I will now deal with the other stamps on the scan of 2½Pf Michel 2 card.

Measurements and annotations made for all the stamps.



Scan of stamp A of Sarre overprints 2½Pf Michel 2., on Germania postage stamps card shown above.
Image

Looks like a type III. This is PROOFED but with no indication of the type (as is usual).





Scan of stamp B of Sarre overprints 2½Pf Michel 2., on Germania postage stamps card shown above.
Image

Another type III?





Scan of stamp C of Sarre overprints 2½Pf Michel 2., on Germania postage stamps card shown above.
Image

Indication of a type 2 but with reservations since the ´S`is large (just) and the
line under the black bar is suspect.






Scan of stamp D of Sarre overprints 2½Pf Michel 2., on Germania postage stamps card shown above.
Image

Looks solid on measurements as a type II, but the line below black bar is highly suspicious and the Sarre is peculiar.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Here is the pair from card.

Scan of pair of Sarre overprints 2½Pf Michel 2., on Germania postage stamps card shown above.
Image

a. Type III. ´S`3.0mm.
b. Upper limits of type III Sarre length.
c. Suspect ´rr`fat legs at base?
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Here is a comparison of the Sarre overprint on stamps.

Scan of enlarged Sarre overprints 2½Pf Michel 2., on Germania postage stamps card shown above.
Image

I complicated this due to earlier labelling.

1,2,3,4 are stamps A,B,C and D on card.

a,b,c,d are the stamps on block top row a and b, bottom row c and d

P1 and P2 are the stamps off pair left to right.

Note

a. 1 and 3 show fairly typical Sarre shapes, whereas 2. and 4. show more atypical Sarre.
b. The ´rr´in 2. and 4. are the wrong shape?
c. The ´rr`in P1 and P2 show widening stem to the ´rr´s.
d. Fat topped ´S`for a, b and c.
e. Increased ink in a. and b.
f. Weak topped ´S` for P1 an P2. and more atypical ´rr`s.
g. General variation in the ´e`s (slope of bar in e, thickness of base curl).
h. Back sloping ´rr`in d.
i. Note variation in th ´e`s!
j. Note then general variation in the block Sarre´s.




Scan of enlarged Sarre overprints 2½Pf Michel 2., on Germania postage stamps card shown above with increased contrast, saturation and brightness.
Image

An attempt to see the nature of the inking.

Note the underlying images under ghosted outer images in Sarre print, representing more typical Sarre from a to d, particularly in the `S`. .

Note the inking seems different in 3.

Scan of comparison of Sarre on 1, 2 and 3 enlarged showing inking.
Image

The stamp 3. shows dense inked letters with little or no ´grain


Scan of comparison of ´S` on a, b and c enlarged showing inking.
Image

Note the more typical dense ´S´within the ´ghost`outside less dense pattern particularly for top stamp.


Conclusions (questions raised) from last effort to understand the Michel 2.

1. Variation in Sarre in the block is a mystery, although inking may be the reason why ´abnormalities` are seen. I am intrigued by the sloping ´rr`in d. of the block?

2. The measurements quoted in Handbook need revision?

3. Differentiating II and III is not so clear cut using measurements.

4. The best indicator is the smaller ´S`at 3 mm as compared to large ´S`for type II (3.2mm- also for type I).

5. Looking harder at ink patterns and lay down of ink might be useful indicator of faking?

6. All type II I have are faked?

As final nail in the coffin of understanding , I would add that the sort of variation seen here in the Sarre is not untypical of the many stamps looked at where the CVs are low and there would be no great benefit in forging the overprint.

There are some obvious outliers where the Sarre is greatly under or oversize or where there is very marked poor letter shapes.

These are the more obvious faked items and they appear on the higher CV type II stamps.

I plod on.

John
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Here is a Michel 5a vertical pair.



Scan of Sarre overprints on vertical hair of 7½Pf Michel 5a., on Germania postage stamp.
Image


Line below the black bar so a type II or III.


Top stamp not too problematic although a double black bar effect with more intense bar to right and less intense to left. Also shadowed´a`.

Measurements for for type III.

However, look at that bottom Sarre!
Same effect with black bar but very distorted Sarre.

Individual stamps then would mean what?
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Now here is a false overprinted stamp!


Scan of faked Sarre overprint (1) on 3Pf Michel 3 on Germania postage stamp.
Image



Another fake

Scan of faked Sarre overprint (2 on 3Pf Michel 3 on Germania postage stamp.
Image
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

I am now loading in some ´proofed`fake stamps with backs shown. I will deal with them a little later in more detail.

Scan of Sarre overprints on Germania postage stamp marked Fälschung on rear.
a.
Image





b.
Image





c.
Image






d.
Image






e.
Image






f.
Image





g.
Image

I welcome any analysis before I attempt to give my opinions.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by maptrekker »

A note concerning the 2½ pf block: Your Saare-to-bar measurements of 7.4 and 7.5 seem to be consistent with Type II which ranges from 7.4 to 7.8.

Interesting that the four on-piece fakes all have the same "HOMBURG Pfalz 15 APR. Vor 8-9 20" postmark.

Two of the fakes may have the same "SAARBRÜCKEN" postmarks.

In general, the small 0.2mm differences in the measurements of the letters and bar seem to be just differences in how the ink adhered to the stamp.

The real difference seems to be the slightly smaller type and bar of type III.

Also the "Saare-to-bar" distances significantly vary, probably row by row on a given sheet. Measurements of <7 and >8 seem to be good indicators of type III.

Excellent illustrations and analysis.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Absolutely agree that the postmarks are deemed fake. Hence the Fälschung on the back.

I showed some earlier in the thread and the consensus was the same, thought I would haul them in with others again and reassess.

I have seen the same HOMBURG Pfaltz 15th APRIL etc., postmarks on eBay with stamps assessed as genuine! The used state can make make a big difference in CVs for most of the issue.

I once indicated, to a renowned seller, that caution was needed with this exact postmark and he said their expert(s) were OK with it.

I also agree that something is fishy with the Saargebiet overprint cancels.

Now seeing that the stamps are cancel compromised, I thought it interesting to look at each stamp as to whether the overprint was ´OK`.

Back to measuring, I will only give a positive assessment as to when measurements fit the recommended limits. Basically I am asking whether the stamp overprint itself is not a fake, even when the cancel is.

I need also to know the proofer ´code`for the Fälschung.

I cannot for the life of me find details as to how the direction of the proofer name (where given) or the colour of the script/box help tell us that the cancel is fake, or the stamp, or both. I await learned input on this.

Examinations of the stamps in scans a. to g. above.

Examination of Scan a.
Image


Left stamp.

Sarre 10.4mm
S 3.1mm (shadow)
e 2mm
Sarre to black bar 8 mm
black bar 18mm
line below the black bar (may be very faint).


Right stamp.

Sarre 10.3mm
S 3.0mm (shadow)
e 2.1mm
Sarre to black bar 8.3 mm
black bar 17.7mm
line below the black bar

Looks like TYPE III.


Both seem too be within variations seen in other genuine overprints.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by maptrekker »

"Fälshung" is not the current mark used by the BPP. It may have been in the past.

Here is how the BPP marks fake stamps, postmarks and gum.

https://www.bpp.de/en/expertising-rules/
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks Map. I have already that reference you gave and see the BPP system.

I am trying to find out what the older ´markings` represented.

The annoying thing is that bare information is shown.

I would have appreciated an opinion about the shade, cancel and type.

Too much to ask from proofers I suppose.

If one is handling a stamp for proofing then surely an opinion can be more than just ´false`.

I realise that more modern proof markings give more clues e.g. as to falsity of cancels, gum etc as outlined in BPP.

Some of my non Fälschung stamps do attempt a shade and combine the signature e.g. Burger with an ´a`or ´b`.

I will show various ´old`proof marks later for reference.

I also note the pencilled comments on stamps. Results of others attempts to resolve a type?

The wheel of my examination has turned almost full circle.

My conclusions (so far) are

1. At higher magnification of Sarre overprints there is appears a variation in letters particularly for the ´rre` region.
This variation is observed on both lower and higher CV stamps, indicating that it is a real phenomenon since the idea of falsifying ´cheap´common stamps is hardly worthwhile.

Attempts to falsify the Sarre on some high CV stamps are sometimes obvious with lettering well outside the variation seen for the bulk of stamps examined. These also do not fit the measurements shown in Handbook.

2. The letter variation is present on blocks and pairs on adjacent stamps. It is also seen when other flaws are associated with the stamp e.g on flaw A (common flaw, gap in centre of the black bar).

3. Looking at a single stamp, given the variation observed, might lead to false conclusions about the type and genuineness of that stamp.

4. The measurements given in Handbook are useful, but may need some adjustment?

5. The ´S`height is a useful marker for distinguishing type II and III.

6. Old proof marks do not give much information as to type.

7. Cancels are a problem as with most German stamps as to authenticity.

8. It would be wonderful if there were records of the processing of the Sarre printings.

Take home message (I need some straw to grab).


Why would anyone bother forging low value stamps?

If they are not forged then looking at the lower CV stamp variation can establish the norms (measurements, shape of lettering, aberrations) of the Sarre overprints.

I did say this was a detailed study.

I will finish off the look at the Fälschung stamps soon.

Major conclusion will be that most seem to be within the variation seen in lettering and measurements to be regarded as genuine!

This is pertinent where cancel is false but the Sarre is not.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Slight change (!) of tack.

Showing the stamps examined, most of which are in earlier scans of the Fälschung series above.


Scans of a number of Sarre overprinted Germania postage stamps indicate as false.
Image

Numbered to allow comparisons below



Scans of a number of Sarre overprinted Germania postage stamps indicate as false with measurments shown on stamps.
Image

Showing this to illustrate how things are handled (or not).





Table showing the Sarre overprints enlarged, Michel identification, measurements, assessment of type and whether a small bar is below the black bar for stamps 1 to 20 above.

Image

1. First column shows the Mi. number of stamp.

2. Second column shows number of stamp as shown above.

3. Column three shows Sarre for each stamp.

4. Column four shows the measurements of stamps.
1st value Sarre length.
2nd value height if the ´S`.
3rd value height of the ´e`.
4th value distance from base if Sarre to top of black bar.
5th value Length of black bar.
6th value (only where there is a line blow the black bar (type II or III) measures length of that line.

5. Column five indicates whether there is a Fälschung box on the back of stamp (F) and also whether there is a cancel on stamp (C).

6. Column six shows possible genuine stamp assessment based on acceptable (Handbook defined) measurements. Types added as I, II or II. The ´F` is my assessment of the stamp as forged. Note some stamps (6 to 11) were looked at that did not have Fälschung on back.

7. Column seven shows that whther there is line below the black box ( ___ ) or not (0).

Tried this tabular method to summarise data.

I will comment more later, as well as enlarge the Sarre part to show differences, but feel free to comment in the interim.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by maptrekker »

Interesting that so many are fakes of the low value Type I stamps.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks map for comment.

I am of the conclusion that the identification the overprints is a bit of a lottery.

The variation In the Sarre and measurements seen in low value stamps is enough to allow good deal of allowance/tolerance of observations on the higher CV stamps.

Blatant false examples, where the measurements are way off norm, are easy to identify along with a visual assessment and there usually target the high CV lot. The problem is with the bulk of examples.

As a finale I will look at a bunch of Type I with the A flaw and test the variation in them as a kind of standard. The A flaw is common and scattered throughout plates.

I will also show some of the many old style proof marks and associate these with the examination of the individual stamps.

Of course it could be that most of mine are fakes? This would go against the logic of any advantage in faking the low CV stamps.

The cancel problem, is interesting.

I assess some of the cancel Fälschung´s as being valid in terms of the Sarre and measurements.

How does this affect the CV? Genuine overprint on fake cancelled stamp? I suppose we can treat them as a collecting area on their own, but maybe´value` as for HM (the lowest CV for stamp in most cases) or just the lowest CV for the stamp as shown in Michel where the HM is higher than the cancelled).

I would love to see a similar study by someone else.

The Germans have a great tradition in minute studies on many areas and many study groups have formed and reported. Somewhere there must be an in depth study of the Sarre overprints apart from the Handbook I keep quoting.

John
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Here are most of the stamps with Fälschung markings.

Somewhat of a repeat exercise.

Assessing whether cancel is false or overprint or both.

Stamps 1 and 2.
Image

Cancels false. Overprints look OK for Type II (?).




Stamp 3.
Image

Cancel or overprint?






Stamp 4.
Image

Cancel false. Overprint looks OK(?)






Stamp 5.
Image

Has to be overprint, (??).






Stamp 6.
Image

Definite overprint, very uncharacteristic.





Stamp7.
Image

Definite overprint, very uncharacteristic.
Note dimensions.
Last edited by johnrcrow on 16 Mar 2020 10:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Stamp 10 and 11.
Image

Both without Fälschung to show difference between left stamp (I rate as false) and right stamp (OK).





Stamp 13.
Image

Cancel false(?)






Stamp 14.
Image

Cancel false(?)




Stamp 15 and 16.
Image

15. Cancel and Sarre false (rather opaque Sarre and bar)
16. False overprint.







Stamp 17.
Image

Sarre looks OK but bar is angled(?)






Stamp 18.
Image

The high CV Mi.16.
Sarre measure OK and not to far from variation seen in Sarre overprints of lower CV stamps so cancel?





Stamps 19 and 20.
Image

Cancels false(?) Our old friend cancel on right.


Brings into question the CV of stamps with genuine overprints but false cancels.
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