Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

If I may interject what may be Mi 71 PF IV Vertical Stoke of 't' Missing Above Horizontal Stroke. I must admit it is not completely missing.

Saargebiet Mi 71 PF IV Vertical Stroke of 't' Missing Above Horizontal Stroke.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by johnrcrow »

Hi Map.

Thanks for post.

Certainly the bit above bar is mostly missing... on the way to complete flaw?

The crude printings are rife with bits and pieces, blotches and misshapes.

Your example shows this well.

Just looking at outside areas illustrates printing difficulties.

map1.jpg

Of course we rely on ´plate`studies`to help assess definitive constant flaws , transient flaws etc. some areas are well researched, some not.

Here are a few more ´flawed`stamps.


1. Shading lines under names at base of Mi.114.

Shading lines under names at base of Mi.114. German Postage stamp from Saargebiet.
Shading lines under names at base of Mi.114. German Postage stamp from Saargebiet.







2. Shading over names at base of Mi.D30.

Shading over names at base of Mi.D30. German Postage stamp from Saargebiet.
Shading over names at base of Mi.D30. German Postage stamp from Saargebiet.







3. Dot over chimney Mi.D27.G

Dot over chimney Mi.D27. German Postage stamp from Saargebiet.
Dot over chimney Mi.D27. German Postage stamp from Saargebiet.




4. Dot on Mi.143. next top lower right ornament.
Dot on Mi.143. next top lower right ornament.
Dot on Mi.143. next top lower right ornament.





5. Breaks in corner pieces.

Breaks in corner pieces. German Postage stamp from Saargebiet.
Breaks in corner pieces. German Postage stamp from Saargebiet.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

Some additional Plate Faults and/or just Flaws. Most are low value items. I have many more of these left to look through when time permits - which means I probably will never get to them.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

Oops - Sorry for duplicate images in previous post.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

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Dot in Zero of the 20 (arrow)
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Dot at bottom right frame (arrow)
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

I can match chaulkdust's Mi 114 "Dot in Upper Left" but this time on Mi 178.

This therefore appears to be a constant plate fault.

Saargebiet Mi 178 Colored  Dot in Upper Left Pentagon.jpg

Saargebiet Mi 178 Colored  Dot in Upper Left Pentagon Closeup.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

Thanks maptrekker. Nice to see someone found a match. Looks like an obvious fault.

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

I also have a few of the "DIENSTMARKEN" Overprint Faults/Flaws that I could dig out and post if you think we need more? I'm not very good at these so some may be just printing glitches. Don't want to clutter things up if not needed.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

I think posting more "DIENSTMARKEN" Overprint Faults/Flaws would be helpful. Other sets of eyes looking at them may turn up more unlisted constant plate faults or other information. Please post them when you have the time. I will be looking for and posting more faults from my disorganized accumulation.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

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Now that I look back at these - I think I mislabeled some of the Type I's and II's. Type I's are thicker and Type II's are thinner I think. Perhaps that's not correct?
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by johnrcrow »

In Michel.
For the 1Fr, Michel 11, I and II., the description of DIENSTMARKE stresses differences in thickness, the A (symmetrical in Type I, asymmetrical in Type II, (seen easily on one of Chaulk´s scans, and the last `E ` and `S`.

For the later Mi. 25C 14 I the stress is on thickness.

For both..
Type II thinner.
Type I thicker.

Also for Types I and II Mi.14 the last ´E`in Type II the foot seems always longer than in Types I.
Also note the ´S`in Type II is a different shape, similar to the 1Fr overprints.

Wondering how these arose as there are paired examples of Type I and II with high CV (Mi.14 I/14II).
Singles not so high CV but the Type II is scarcest.

I will exhume some examples and we see whether I can show the differences in scans.

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

Dienstmarke Mi 11 I PF VII – Comma under "Fr"

Dienstmarke Mi 11 I PF VII Comma Under 'fr.'.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by johnrcrow »

Some more aberrations.
German postage stamps- Saargebiet. Short thick line above ´e`in ´cent` Mi.72.
German postage stamps- Saargebiet. Short thick line above ´e`in ´cent` Mi.72.





German postage stamps- Saargebiet. Break in frame over ´VAUGIRARD`Mi. 115.
German postage stamps- Saargebiet. Break in frame over ´VAUGIRARD`Mi. 115.


(Caption should read VAUGIRARD).






German postage stamps- Saargebiet. Central line of ´E` in ´SAARGEBIET`extended Mi. 115.
German postage stamps- Saargebiet. Central line of ´E` in ´SAARGEBIET`extended Mi. 115.






German postage stamps- Saargebiet. Dot over ´r`in left ´Fr` Mi.191.
German postage stamps- Saargebiet. Dot over ´r`in left ´Fr` Mi.191.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

Mi 8. Note the same four spots of color in and around the first "E" of the overprint. If I have 3 copies, this must be a common flaw.

S0.jpg

S2.jpg

S3.jpg

s1.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

Wow, I will have to re-look through mine and see if I have any.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

John , the 191 PF (dash over r in "Fr") is a good one. Haven't ever seen it before at all.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by johnrcrow »

Some more to chew over.
German postage stamps- Saargebiet. Mi. 109. Lower left bulge in line above semi-circular pattern.
German postage stamps- Saargebiet. Mi. 109. Lower left bulge in line above semi-circular pattern.










German postage stamps- Saargebiet. Mi.118. Damaged ´E´in `SAARGEBIET`.
German postage stamps- Saargebiet. Mi.118. Damaged ´E´in `SAARGEBIET`.









German postage stamps- Saargebiet. Mi. D18. Incomplete ´K`in overprint.
German postage stamps- Saargebiet. Mi. D18. Incomplete ´K`in overprint.










German postage stamps- Saargebiet. Mi. D26. Break in ´D`of overprint.
German postage stamps- Saargebiet. Mi. D26. Break in ´D`of overprint.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

Saargebiet Mi 109 Unlisted Bulge from Stampboards.png

I can confirm this plate flaw.

Saargebiet Mi 109 Unlisted Bulge.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

Yes, I also have some items to chew on as well. If you see any plate faults on overprints or stamps let me know as I haven't checked these, other than to show the possible flaws. I did see 1 overprint with the Maptrekker Error on the E he had shown.

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

Saargebiet Mi 118 Damaged First 'E' in 'SAARGEGIET' from Stampboards.png
I can also confirm this Mi 118 Damaged First 'E' in 'SAARGEBIET' plate flaw.

Saargebiet Mi 118 Damaged First 'E' in 'SAARGEBIET'.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by johnrcrow »

I believe there must be another handbook source of identified flaws on the Saargebiet and Saarland issues.

This would not be surprising as it is typical of German working groups in many other issue areas.

I have several examples where there is reference (on attached labels or back) to plate positions other than those highlighted in the Michel.

Some of the ´repeats` we are getting here indicate more than random printing glitches.

I will try and get more information.

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

Saargebiet Dienstmarke Mi 026 Break in Top of 'D' in 'DIENSTMARKE' from StampBoards.png
Doesn't this look like a repaired break in the 'D' of 'DIENSTMARKE'?

Saargebiet Dienstmarke Mi 026 Break in Top of 'D' in 'DIENSTMARKE' Repaired.jpg
Saargebiet Dienstmarke Mi 026 Break in Top of 'D' in 'DIENSTMARKE' Repaired Closeup.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

Saargebiet Dienstmarke Mi 011 II Colored Spot Under Building on the Left from Stampboards.png

Confirmation of chaulk's "colored dot under building" on Mi Dienstmarke 11 II.

Saargebiet Dienstmarke Mi 011 II Colored Spot Under Building on the Left.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

Another example of Dienstmarke Mi 7 with notch at top of final 'E' in 'DIENSTMARKE'.

Saargebiet Diensmarke Mi 007 Notch at Top of Second 'E' in 'DIENSTMARKE'.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

Saarland Mi 287 Extra Limb on Tree from Stampboards.png

Confirmation of Saarland Mi 287 with extra limb on tree.

Saarland Mi 287 Extra Limb on Tree.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

Good find - Maptrekker, that's 2 you confirmed.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by johnrcrow »

We can then move into the later SAARLAND now. Maybe another thread beckons?

Saarland 1947-56 and als Bundesland 1957-59 a detailed discussion?

A pretty lot of issues and more flaws.

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

Just noticed that for the Mi 287 (extra branch stamp) that there appears to be a slight plate crack on the stamps that have the extra branch. See below images. The 1st is a normal 287 and the next two are the two extra branch stamps we posted.
Image
orginal 287 no extra branch
Image

Image

The above 2 images are from the two extra brach stamps we posted.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

We can then move into the later SAARLAND now. IMaybe another thread beckons?

Saarland 1947-56 and als Bundesland 1957-59 a detailed discussion?

A pretty lot of issues and more flaws.

John
I would love to see images for Saar 1947-59.

I think making a separate thread or threads would make it easier to navigate and refer back to plate flaws in the posts.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

There also seems to be a spot to the right of the crack on both copies. Can you confirm?

first dot.png

second dot.png
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by johnrcrow »

Re. I would love to see images for Saar 1947-59.

OK Map.

I suspect many others have at least some of these issues.

Quite a complex area in parts, so detailing will be up to what others have as well as my lot.

I will start this soon.. have scanning to do of my 47-59 collection that is complete apart from the very high CV overprint Type I 1947 issues. (looking forward to others juicy examples there).

As you say we can move flaws ´across` where relevant but flaws galore for we squinters to display.

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

A continuation of this SAAR discussion can be found at the below link
https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=95506&p=7229148#p7229148

Maptrekker I have 6 copies with no dot and no extra limb on Mi 287.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by CMJ »


Moderator Comment

chaulkdust,

Since the well-publicised introduction of the new version of the board last year, all images should be uploaded directly to Stampboards which is a very simple process. Images should no longer be linked to from any external image hosting site(s) or other websites as these then need to be manually converted by the volunteer moderator team.

Here, is a link to a tutorial showing how images should be added.

Test and post your images direct onto June 2020 NEW Stampboards

Thank you. 

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

So Sorry, I just noticed your message now. I will be happy to comply in the future, I just haven't posted in quite a while and must have missed the new procedure.

Best Regards
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

So Sorry, I just noticed your message now. I will be happy to comply in the future, I just haven't posted in quite a while and must have missed the new procedure.

Best Regards
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

A new item for Mi 102 I just found.
Stamp Cover with Mi 102 Block PF IV
Stamp Cover with Mi 102 Block PF IV
.
Stamp PF IV Blowup
Stamp PF IV Blowup
.

Posted directly to Stampboards.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

Mi 102 Damage to left '45 Cent.'

Saar Mi 102 Damage to Left 'Cent.'.jpg
Mi 102
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks for these Map and Chaulk.

Seems we have a great collection between us.

Very useful register letter to Holland.....

John
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by johnrcrow »

Some more ´flaws`.

Mi 86.

Saar postage stamp Mi.86 with large ink spot under ´BI`of Saargebiet.
Saar postage stamp Mi.86 with large ink spot under ´BI`of Saargebiet.







Mi.86.

Saar postage stamp Mi.86 with large white spot under right lower circle.
Saar postage stamp Mi.86 with large white spot under right lower circle.









Mi.88.

Saar postage stamp Mi.88 break in top left corner design.
Saar postage stamp Mi.88 break in top left corner design.









Mi.115

Saar postage stamp Mi.115 disfigured `Tholey`and spot outside central left border.
Saar postage stamp Mi.115 disfigured `Tholey`and spot outside central left border.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by johnrcrow »

Mi D6 XIX.

Saar postage stamp D6. XIX connected ´ST`in overprint.
Saar postage stamp D6. XIX connected ´ST`in overprint.


Connected ´ST`.

Given as XIX, but not a Michel defined flaw. Any ideas?








Mi D18.
Saar postage stamp D18. Line across legs of ´R`in overprint.
Saar postage stamp D18. Line across legs of ´R`in overprint.









Mi D28.

Saar postage stamp D28. Top corner damaged in ´D`of overprint.
Saar postage stamp D28. Top corner damaged in ´D`of overprint.










Mi. D28 XII.

Saar postage stamp D28 XIII. Bottom corner damaged in ´D`of overprint.
Saar postage stamp D28 XIII. Bottom corner damaged in ´D`of overprint.











Mi.D32.

Saar postage stamp D32. Comma before right hand ´Fr`.
Saar postage stamp D32. Comma before right hand ´Fr`.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

Image
I can confirm Mi 88 Break in Top Left Corner Design with the same flaw on Mi D3.

Saar Mi D3 Break in Top Left Corner Design.jpg
Mi D3 Break in Top Left Corner Design
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

Image
Confirmation of Mi D6 I 'S' and 'T' connected.

Saargebiet Dienstmarke Mi 006 Unlisted  'S' and 'T' Connected.jpg

Mi D6 I with 'S', T' and 'M' connected.

Saargebiet Dienstmarke Mi 003 Unlisted 'S', 'T' and 'M' Connected.jpg

Given as XIX, but not a Michel defined flaw
Who is giving this the designation of 'XIX'?
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