Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

Hugo67 wrote: 27 Feb 2023 09:51
maptrekker wrote: 27 Feb 2023 06:15

I can confirm another of John's images as a constant plate flaw. The blank spot in the image seems to be associated with the nick in the outer frame lower right.

plate position 39
I stand corrected as it is more complicated than this. This fault occurs on multiple positions, not just position 39. And, to make matters worse, the positions vary.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

I had a close look at two entire sheets, one of Mi.-Nr. 57 and another of Mi.-Nr. 58
On the first, the fault is visible on positions 81, 83, 85, 87 and 89.
On the latter, it is on positions 31, 33, 35, 37, 39, 81, 83, 85, 87 and 89.
These Vaugirard prints will keep us busy...
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

That explains why I have 4 copies of the plate fault — it repeats at many positions on a sheet.

The positions are interesting:

31, 33, 35, 37, 39
81, 83, 85, 87, 89

It appears that the clichés were assembled in groups of 50 (10 x 5) and impressed twice into each counter sheet in the case of Mi 58.

Only once in the case of Mi 57 along with at least one other different grouping.

This reminds me of the Germany "basket lids" where the clichés were in groups of 25 (5 x 5) resulting in four positions for each plate flaw per counter sheet.

Excellent work Hugo.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by johnrcrow »

Indeed nice work all.

Are we talking about this flaw circled in scan? A little confused here.
2 copies.png


2 copies copy.png
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

erroneously posted sry
Last edited by Hugo67 on 28 Feb 2023 06:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

maptrekker wrote: 27 Feb 2023 06:15
Image
I can confirm another of John's images as a constant plate flaw. The blank spot in the image seems to be associated with the nick in the outer frame lower right.

Image
John, this is the one we are talking about
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

EaseUS_2023_02_27_15_20_21.png
Ah, but this nick in the left outer frame near the bottom also appears in each of my copies of the plate flaw in question.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

maptrekker wrote: 28 Feb 2023 07:26
Ah, but this nick in the left outer frame near the bottom also appears in each of my copies of the plate flaw in question.
I fully confirm your observation
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

Another example of a forgery which does not appear to make much economical sense:
31Stempelfalsch.jpg
31Stempelfalsch_RS.jpg
I do not remember having seen many forged St. Ingbert cancellations on Bayern Sarre overprints.
Anyone with an idea which plate position the genuine overprint belongs to ?
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by jadrake »

So I attended NAPEX23 for a few hours last weekend (I had to cut it short because the purpose of me being in the area was to take my daughter to her regional soccer game and there is only so much texts of "when are we leaving????" one can take... :lol: :lol: ) But I did find a few Saar for consideration that I'd like an opinion on...

Mi 8 I PF D
8 I PF D.jpg

Mi 8 I PF J
8 I PF J.jpg
The next one I hope I have right. Something about the sizing of that first "r" triggered me when I examined it and it was enough for me to pick it up

Mi 24 PF J ?
24 PF J.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by jadrake »

Further Goodies... From Mi 100 I have

Mi 100 IX
100 IX.jpg

And something a bit new. Mi 100 but there is a clear break in the third step on the left side. There is also some chattering on the bottom of the "B" in "SAARGEBIET" - There is an unfortunate stain mark right under the tower peak (I don't think it is a natural inclusion - looks like an oil stain of some sort - probably grease from the fingers of the recipient of the letter!)

100 f-C.jpg

From Mi 85, I present a new possible flaw where there is a black speck right of the "5" in the value tablet. When I saw this I thought this was Maptrekkers stamp, but I now realize his was on the left side.
85 a f-E.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by jadrake »

Moving to the Airmail issue, I would like first confirmation on whether this is Mi 127 PF VIII which has "spurs" on the right ornament in the bottom right corner. The image I have of this has two marks. I have examined this with my microscope at 25x and it is clearly not black from the cancel, but is inked in the paper in the purple. Also of note is the two small specks below the "I" in "SAARGEBIET" in the sky.
127 PF VIII.jpg

The next stamp is I believe 126 I, but has two interesting characteristics. The first is the colored dot on the left margin, along with a mark below the belly of the plane. What I find interesting here is it has the characteristic of the start of the PF IV flaw which is a bulge in the inner frameline directly to the right of the first oval. It is in the exact location it should be and is "partially" bulged. Perhaps this was the start of the wear that led to this? It doesn't say partial in Michel (Teilaufl.) so I am assuming all position 42s had the IV flaw. Interested in everyones thoughts here....
126 I.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by jadrake »

Moving to the Officials (by this point my eyes had glazed over so I had to scan the 10-15 stamps / card pretty quickly) but I found a few interesting tidbits....

Mi O18 PF III - Top right Bubble in Ornament
O18 PF III.jpg

Mi 020a XI - The "E" is broken at the top
O20 a XI.jpg

The next stamp is a bit of a question. It clearly shows the top of the "E" is broken, but unlike the diagram of "XI" which shows the line missing, in this case it is clearly there, but is "dented" rather extremely. Is this a copy of XI?
O21 XI.jpg

Finally from the second issue of the officials there is another damaged "E" variety

Mi O26 a XI
O26 a XI.jpg

I also have this Mi O28 a, which has a spur in the second bottom left diamond. I seem to remember seeing an image of this somewhere but I didn't have it anywhere on my album pages. What are peoples thoughts on this?
O28 a-2.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by johnrcrow »

Hello Jadrake.

Thanks for posting these. A nice lot to find.

Early comment from me.

The ´Sarre` is certainly a mess on this one.

The first ´r` certainly thin with fragile top bar. Saw a gap in the ´S`and possible closed ´e`?

Added a brightened up enlargement.
24 PF J.jpg
s2.png
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

my best guesses would be:
- the damaged characters are accidental, not due to a plate fault
- the line pattern would hint towards plate position 24 on plate IIa or IIb
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

Here is what PF II looks like on 127 (2 dots)
Clipboard04.jpg
Yes, I would think that is a PF VIII with a little hook added.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

Saar broken E.png
Is this slight bend in the last letter "E" an early state of the above and PF XI?
Saar Start of PF XI.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by jadrake »

Maptrekker this is what I was wondering as well... was XI just an every increasing distortion that at some point just clipped the end entirely? It was an overprint so you would imagine the die would have been raised for the characters. If the metal was weak (material flaw) it is possible that subsequent "hitting" of the printing was causing weakening and deflection.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

TO check this hypothesis, the thing to do should be to unambiguously assign plate positions to these two stamps. position 26 being the one mentioned in Michel for PF XI.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

Can anyone verify this Mi 88 as a constant PF?

Break towards the bottom in one of the long vertical lines of the left frame.
Saar Mi 88 Break in Rightmost Long Vertical Line in Left Frame Annotated.jpg
Saar Mi 88 Break in Rightmos tLong Vertical Line in Left Frame.jpg
This D5 I double PF is definitely constant in that there are two copies.

Short diagonal line connecting the first two long vertical lines of the left frame towards the top and...
Dot on the first short vertical line of the right frame.
Saar D5 I PF Diagonal Line Connecting Vert Lines in Left Frame and Dot on Vert Line in Right Frame.jpg
Saar D5 I PF Diagonal Line Connecting Vert Lines in Left Frame and Dot on Vert Line in Right Frame 8k5.jpg
Saar D5 I PF Diagonal Line Connecting Vert Lines in Left Frame and Dot on Vert Line in Right Frame 8k5 Closeup 1.jpg
Saar D5 I PF Diagonal Line Connecting Vert Lines in Left Frame and Dot on Vert Line in Right Frame 8k5 Closeup 2.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by jadrake »

maptrekker wrote: 03 Sep 2023 01:59 Can anyone verify this Mi 88 as a constant PF?

Break towards the bottom in one of the long vertical lines of the left frame.

Image
So strangely enough I actually found this on a Mi 99 when making my album pages. The position was unknown but is certainly from a different stamp than maptrekkers. So this means this was likely a valid flaw (enough that I picked it up on my pages for Mi 99). Notice there was a secondary mark on the steps which after discussion with maptrekker also appears.
99 fD.png
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

maptrekker wrote: 03 Sep 2023 01:59 Can anyone verify this Mi 88 as a constant PF?

Break towards the bottom in one of the long vertical lines of the left frame.

Image

Image

Plate position 47
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

Thanks for the plate position Hugo67.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

maptrekker wrote: 03 Sep 2023 01:59

This D5 I double PF is definitely constant in that there are two copies.

Short diagonal line connecting the first two long vertical lines of the left frame towards the top and...
Dot on the first short vertical line of the right frame.

Image

Image

Image

Image
plate position 44
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by maptrekker »

Really appreciated. Thanks again Hugo67.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

Think nothing of it
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

This stamp has me puzzled? I remembered this thread from the past, anyone care to comment?
3M.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

chaulkdust wrote: 29 Jan 2024 05:28 This stamp has me puzzled? I remembered this thread from the past, anyone care to comment?
Image
Michel calls this 66 I and quotes a catalogue value of 150,- for MH and 350,- for MNH.
The 53-69 issue printing was performed rather sloppily (possibly on purpose ?) by Vaugirard in Paris so there are more examples of these frame/centre inversions in the series known, namely for the 53, 56, 60 and 66. Only in the case of the 53 used pieces are known.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

Thanks for the information!
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by jadrake »

Wanted to get the threads opinion... found this in an APS Circuit book for Saar. So this is a 20a stamp signed "A BURGER BPP a" - the backstamp is correct size, and looks fine.

So I have drawn up pages for a bunch of the more advanced plating of the overprints. I have included the additional types from the handbook that have been shown here in threads such as PF HB J, PF HB B etc. (I use HB for handbook)

However this is almost a mirror image of Michel PF B I type. Except the top bar is short on the left. There is also a break on lines 2 and 4 (from top) about 30-35% from the left. Any ideas on this? I actually don't have a 20a in MNH so I am going to add it no matter what but wanted to get the threads thoughts.....
20 a PF
20 a PF
Note the bottom small thin black overprint line.... it is not "Bleeding" - I had to take this stamp photo with my camera and I don't know why it came out like this. The "actual" stamp is a solid (but thin) line with no signs of what looks like runny ink... how odd
Last edited by jadrake on 02 Feb 2024 15:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by jadrake »

So of course I examine my collection further. This stamp was expertized "A BURGER BPP b BIII" and kind of looks like the stamp I showed... so is this the BIII ? Is Michel PF BIII not as extreme of a top line break at left and more rounded?
20 PF BIII
20 PF BIII
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

jadrake wrote: 02 Feb 2024 15:02 So of course I examine my collection further. This stamp was expertized "A BURGER BPP b BIII" and kind of looks like the stamp I showed... so is this the BIII ? Is Michel PF BIII not as extreme of a top line break at left and more rounded?
Image
Yet another example where Michel confuses more than it is helpful because they chose to call two different plate flaws BIII.
In all cases, what they call BIII occurs on plates IIa and IIb on plate positions 83 and 89. This one is clearly plate position 89 as the one on position 83 inevitably occurs with a slash through the right hand part of the "a" which is not the case here.
For the first stamp you show, it is a plate flaw also occuring on plates IIa and IIb which, for yet another inexplicable reason, is not mentioned in the Michel. It is plate position 27, the handbook calls it A10.
I shall try and upload some scans later.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

Here are some scans from plate IIa:
Position 27
20PlIIaPos27.jpg
Position 83 (BIII); note the slash in the "a"
20PlIIaPos83.jpg
Position 89 (also BIII)
20PlIIaPos89.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

The same three plate positions from plate IIb:
Looking at this, my guess would be your stamp is from this plate, too

plate position 27
25PlIIb_Pos27.jpg
plate position 83 (B III), with slightly less visible slash in the "a"
25PlIIbPos83.jpg
plate position 89 (B III)
25PlIIbPos89.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by jadrake »

Thanks Hugo for the info on that stamp....

Newest finds from the APS Saar Circuit

First up this cover. This cover remarkably shows 3 x Mi 108 PF II (smoke from right chimney). I was surprised to see one, but then three? I thought either someone was tearing sheets three thick and it was just luck that it ended up this way, or the sender (which does not appear to be defined) knew they were doing it (unlikely at the time)
108 II.jpg
So here is what I have observed. Letter was posted on September 10, 1928 at BOUS to "Frau <FIRSTNAME> Zigler> / Bremervörde / ????". The reverse is empty so there is no receiver cancel.

I need some help on the FIRSTNAME and what appears on the bottom two lines (is the word in () "Hannover"?). If anyone is able to help here it would be great.

Can someone comment on the use of 3 x 10pf + 20pf for postage? If I read the table in Michel correctly this is the correct inland long-distance (650km would qualify in my mind) for letters at 20g as of August 11 1926 - April 1 1930.

Finally what are the odds that I get 3 copies of this plate flaw on a single cover? That seems pretty odd. There does not appear to be a flaw on the 20pf. Comments?
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by chaulkdust »

Wow, great find indeed.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by jadrake »

Next set of items from the Circuit.

First off Mi 288 II - the bottom of the "TER" in reduced almost like there was a circle there. Not an exceptually rare item (ebay.de has many for sale) but nice modern"ish" find. It occurs constantly in Columns 4 and 9 of the sheet (all rows) and has a value of 24eu.
288 PF II.jpg
Keeping with later French Administration Saar I picked up this stamp variant of Mi 266. There is a clear vertical raster line through the stamp at a slight angel on the right frame edge. I doubt this is a plate flaw but an interesting error
266 var.jpg
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

quadruple posting...
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

triple posting..
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

sry double posting
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

Hugo67 wrote: 06 Feb 2024 04:45
jadrake wrote: 06 Feb 2024 02:43

So here is what I have observed. Letter was posted on September 10, 1928 at BOUS to "Frau <FIRSTNAME> Zigler> / Bremervörde / ????". The reverse is empty so there is no receiver cancel.
I read (and it is confusing because the street name is the only word written in Kurrent)
Frau Leni Ziegler
Bremervörde (Hannover)
Bahnhofstr. 7


The postage rate in 1928 for letters up to 100 grams to Germany (whatever the distance) was 50 Pfennig hence all is in perfect order.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by jadrake »

Thanks again Hugo.....

Further goodies (in total there was > 50 plate flaws found so I will only show here some of the ones that may not be already shown in this thread....)

I think a new find.... break in the lower left bottom frameline just right of the imprint on Mi 160. Overall this is a generally scarcer stamp and the single Michel listed plate flaw is I think 80eu so this sheet is probably less studied... but this jumped out.
Mi 160 PF f-A
Mi 160 PF f-A

The next one I found twice in the circuit. Lucky me! Although interestingly the degree of the mark is a bit varied. Again this is not listed to my knowledge in the thread so far - Mi 118 speck in the "E" - the second definitely being more pronounced (I figured at $0.20 worth getting both)
Mi 118 PF f-F
Mi 118 PF f-F
Mi 118 PF f-F-2
Mi 118 PF f-F-2
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by jadrake »

Further fun

I already had this plate flaw potential defined in my pages - so I suspect it was offered here (but I may have found it on other sources). The issue is a notch in the "I" at right which can be seen - so this is either further confirmation OR something new for the thread...
95 PF f-A
95 PF f-A
I had some fun with the color bands and you can see the notch is not from the cancel
fun-1.png
The last is something I swear I have seen before, but couldn't place it so I created a spot in my album for it - burr or tail on the bottom left of the "B" in "SAARGEBIET" - in this case it is on an official but no doubt also exists on regular issues....
O2 I a PF f-F
O2 I a PF f-F
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by jadrake »

The last of the maybe it could be a platform flaws I'd like to show would be these two items

First is the 75c O15 with a strong mark in the water just above the value tablet
Mi O15 I PF f-B
Mi O15 I PF f-B
Lastly is 30c O26 with a clear mark left of the "S" in "SAARGEBIET".
Mi O26 PF f-F
Mi O26 PF f-F
Now the seller (who I know well) doesn't have our level of information and had labelled it as O26 PF VI. However from my album/notes PF VI has the speck "below" the curve of the "S" not left and separate from it. I have actually found a few of both of these on ebay.de all listed as 112 PF IV (the non-official version)
Mi 112 PF IV
Mi 112 PF IV
That about does the new finds..... I think the cover (which I do not collect many) or the Mi 160 potential flaw are the items of most excitement to me. Finding two similiar examples of Mi 118 lends it some credence to being an occuring flaw.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

Post by Hugo67 »

jadrake wrote: 06 Feb 2024 08:01 ]

Lastly is 30c O26 with a clear mark left of the "S" in "SAARGEBIET".
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