Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussion

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Three examples of Dienstmarke aberrations of mine. Examine tables for confirmation.

Image
Michel 6 I PF III. There is a stripe through 'M' and 'A'. Note also the hole in the 'D'? Euro 40 CV.



Image
Michel 4 I PF IV Top right side of 'M' is cut. Euro 12 CV.



Image
Michel 6 I PF XXIV 'M' and 'A' touch at base tips. Euro 40 CV.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Just thought it would be interesting to show some of the many variations observed in Saargebiet overprints for various denominations.


5 Pf
Image
Nine 5Pf Saargebiet postage stamp overprints showing variations.


5Pf enlarged overprints.
Image
Enlargments of overprints for 5 Pf Saargebiet overprint postage stamps.


20 Pf overprints in grey scale.
Image

30 Pf overprints enlarged.
Image

40Pf overprints enlarged.
Image


50 Pf overprints enlarged.
Image


60Pf overprints enlarged.
Image


Michel 50 showing broken rosette.
Image
Michel 50. Saargebiet postage stamp showing broken right rosette.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Several new 'faults' to show here.

Michel 100 I : Comma below 'c' of 'cent'
Image
Postage stamps of Saargebiet Michel 101 I.



Michel 100 III : Line coming from top of '5'
Image
Postage stamps of Saargebiet Michel 101 III.




Michel 100 VIII : Line between 'R' and 'G' of 'SAARGEBIET"
Image
Postage stamps of Saargebiet Michel 101 VIII.




Michel 101 III : Dot at top right of 'c' in 'cent'
Image
Postage stamps of Saargebiet Michel 101 III.




Michel 77 II : Piece missing from '0" in '40' numeral
Image
Postage stamps of Saargebiet Michel 77 II.




Michel 26 IV : Dark spot centre of 'G' in 'SAARGEBIET'
Image
Postage stamps of Saargebiet Michel 26 IV.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Several new 'faults' to show here.

Michel 100 I : Comma below 'c' of 'cent'
Image
Postage stamps of Saargebiet Michel 101 I.



Michel 100 III : Line coming from top of '5'
Image
Postage stamps of Saargebiet Michel 101 III.




Michel 100 VIII : Line between 'R' and 'G' of 'SAARGEBIET"
Image
Postage stamps of Saargebiet Michel 101 VIII.




Michel 101 III : Dot at top right of 'c' in 'cent'
Image
Postage stamps of Saargebiet Michel 101 III.




Michel 77 II : Piece missing from '0" in '40' numeral
Image
Postage stamps of Saargebiet Michel 77 II.




Michel 26 IV : Dark spot centre of 'G' in 'SAARGEBIET'
Image
Postage stamps of Saargebiet Michel 26 IV.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by jstubbs »

This thread is turning out to be a wonderful online resource for anyone collecting Saar. This is in response to posts from Oct. 15, 06:119:30am and Oct. 17, 20:45:14pm by the thread author johncrow where examples of plate flaws are being showcased. I just ran into a load of Saar and am studying this data as posted for the 1922-23 Officials in Michel. I think there might be an error in the posts regarding the 25 cent magenta and straw which is shown in both posts as captioned (alternately) Michel 6 I and Michel 10 I. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I want to be clear about the 25 cent, which comes in two colors. The less common color is red and yellow from 1922, and I believe that is Michel 6. The more common color is magenta and straw from 1923, which I believe is Michel 14, and is only one of two set members which come in overprint type I and II. The resource lists posted for Michel show plate flaw listings for all the 1922 stamps of the set, but none for the 1923 members, listed at the end as Michel 12-15. I would love to see Michel data for plate flaws and variations on #12-15 posted because I have many of them. Clearly the 1923 magenta and straw issue has plate flaws. In my own stamps, for instance, I see a number of PF XX (bottom bar of "E" is elongated).
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

The post recently was as below and I agree that we should look harder at the stamps highlighted. My interest then is resurrected and I will post soon dealing with this and the good points made about the 25c as well as seeing what flaw information I can provide concerning the 1923's. I am glad that their is continued interest.

John

"This thread is turning out to be a wonderful online resource for anyone collecting Saar. This is in response to posts from Oct. 15, 06:119:30am and Oct. 17, 20:45:14pm by the thread author johncrow where examples of plate flaws are being showcased. I just ran into a load of Saar and am studying this data as posted for the 1922-23 Officials in Michel. I think there might be an error in the posts regarding the 25 cent magenta and straw which is shown in both posts as captioned (alternately) Michel 6 I and Michel 10 I. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I want to be clear about the 25 cent, which comes in two colors. The less common color is red and yellow from 1922, and I believe that is Michel 6. The more common color is magenta and straw from 1923, which I believe is Michel 14, and is only one of two set members which come in overprint type I and II. The resource lists posted for Michel show plate flaw listings for all the 1922 stamps of the set, but none for the 1923 members, listed at the end as Michel 12-15. I would love to see Michel data for plate flaws and variations on #12-15 posted because I have many of them. Clearly the 1923 magenta and straw issue has plate flaws. In my own stamps, for instance, I see a number of PF XX (bottom bar of "E" is elongated).I agree with the points made in the last post. I will resurrect my interest in the thread and look hard at the stamps being questioned".
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Straight away the Michel number for 1922- 25c Official is Mi.6 and the 1923 25c Mi.14, so I made a mistake. Please accept apologies for this. I was confusing the 75c and 25C.
As I said I will post on the flaws for these later.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by jstubbs »

In response to the last post: I am very excited about the Michel info the author has posted. I am focussing right now on the 1922-23 official overprint set which has extensive data on both overprint plate flaws and variations in the base art. Trouble is, it's all in German. I know that visual examples are an essential and continuing part of this thread, but to help matters along I am attempting to translate the list for all to see (I am relying on Google Translate). I have finished the 1922 stamps and am holding out for the 1923 data. When complete, I will post.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

I have assembled some information on the Michel 14's and their flaws.

Reminders of Michel table.

Image

Plate flaws

Image


Image

Overprint flaws

Image

Plate and overprint flaws Mi. 12-15. Red boxes are flaws illustrated in examples. Blue boxes use Mi. 100 equivalent flaws. Note these are not the same PF number.

Image

Enlarged table for Mi. 14.

Image


Examples of Mi. 14 flaws. Where there is no enlarged section I have to be sure of defining flaw. Will address later. Help needed maybe?


Image


Image


Image

Flaws on Mi. 100 that are same as those on PF 14 but NOTE with different numbers.


Image
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by jstubbs »

OK, here we go. Your timely post is greatly appreciated. The #14 (25c magenta and straw from 1923) is particularly interesting, with eleven plate flaw variations on the base art, any one of which changes the Michel catalog used from ,60– Euros to 25,– Euros ($0.83 to $34.50 in that market). Michel #6 (25c red and yellow) from 1922 has the same eleven variations, but with different code numbers. In looking at the last post, I notice a few things. Answers to my questions will be very helpful in getting my translation post right.

1. I hope you will correct me if I’m wrong, but I suspect an error on your example of 14 IX where you circled two elements in green. This is actually another 14 X which you correctly show directly below it, with the upper green arrow probably highlighting some damage to the stamp rather than the IX description of a [prominent point right of center in the stairs]. The Michel description of 14 X is as follows: [Point on the connecting line between the lower circles at the bottom right and point between "I" and "E" in Saargebeit]. Your 14 IX shows the first element of this flaw. Your 14 X shows the second. I actually have an example of the 14 IX. Two horizontal lines are broken in a position closer to the "5" of "25" (stair lines two and three from bottom) and there is a dot on the center of the break (I’m sorry I am not around a scanner right now).

2. I am anxious to see an example of 14 XI. Your last post shows an XI, but does not show the defining feature which has a rather cumbersome description in German of a point on a line in the bottom left somewhere. Same with XVI. I want to get a good look at that “point to the left of spire.”

3. Your PF XIV (from Mi. 100 VIII) is actually PF XV which is the one regarding the “G”. The XIV is regarding the “S” and this brings up an interesting question. In 14 I PF XV, there is a rogue blob of ink which touches the “G.” Fair enough. Although the translation says the same thing about the “S” in 14 I PF XIV, it appears that the aberration here is that the S descends significantly below the baseline. I say “significantly” because a slight dip below the baseline is common on the S. Is this a correct interpretation of XIV?

4. I am in the dark on the rather valuable variants for the 75c which involves a river scene. As with the 25c, the six variants here are the same for the two different colors but with different codes. Can you comment on the translations which read 15 I PF I: “large "headlight" in the middle of the quay wall,” 15 I PF VI: “Spotlight" at right in the quay wall.” They probably just mean unusual white spots.

5. I noticed #12-15 type I have a new overprint abberation not appearing before, XXV, but there is no description of it. Do you know anything about it?

6. My final question I am dying to know. I believe that like with myself, anyone who goes through a large number of the “Dienstmarke” 1922-3 overprints will find it all too easy to overqualify the final “E” for abberation XX. The problem is that the bottom bar of the E is USUALLY a bit longer than the top bar, and it varies mercilessly. It varies so much that I can find one even longer than the illustrated example. I can find one just a titch shorter. I can find one exactly the same as the top bar, and everything in between. The million dollar question is, when is it XX and when is it not XX? If a bit longer made the grade, then that would make this aberration too common.

I will wait for your answers before I finalize my translation.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks for correcting me. I agree with you on the redefining of the flaws.

The 'Long E' question is interesting. All I can say is that the lower bar has to be substantially greater than normal. The point you make is 'what is normal'? I will ponder this and of course the possession of hundreds of stamps to study is needed.

As I indicated I need to address the flaws where I showed no enlargement. I will work on this. As you see I took sale stamps with the flaws defined to show and they may not be accurate though they are from reputable dealers.
We need a German speaking Stampboarder expert in these flaws.

I will also look harder at the 75C's. The illustrated types with spotlight usually mean a circular highlight of white but scuffed stamps complicate this.

Thanks for input, tonight I will study more and get back.

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

I have found some examples of the 'headlights in quay' in the centre and to the right and will post later.

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by jstubbs »

Thanks for the answers you gave. This is great. Do you know anything on the following?

1. Can you describe the defining flaw on 14 PF XIV? Is it that the “S” of “Saargebeit” dips below the baseline?

2. Do you know what the overprint flaw for type I: XXV is? It begins appearing on the list for #12-15 (the 1923 issues) but I can’t find a description.

3. The ‘long E’ question is pending and I much appreciate your pondering of this. With precision measurement it may be possible to define a threshold in millimeters that the bottom bar must be longer than the top bar, but knowing what that threshold is may be the pervue of an expert. Clearly examples which are ‘a lot longer’ are XX, but what about examples which are ‘somewhat longer’? Through looking at many examples I have determined that in it’s most common form the bottom bar is 0% - 5% (+0.1mm) longer than the top bar, and this is clearly not XX. A ‘very long’ example would be 20-25% longer (+ 0.5mm) than the top which definitely is XX, and there is a middle range where the bottom bar is 9-15% (0.2-0.3mm) longer. When looking at one of these, it appears obviously longer, but it is not ‘very long.’ In the diagram you posted, the bottom bar is 20% longer.

4. Another issue I have is with PF VIII (overprint type I aberration) which is the weird “R.” This is a relatively subtle flaw in which the top line of the “R” is not in line with the overall text but rather declines at about 15 degrees. Also the front leg of the R does not line up with the forward round but rather tucks inside that boundary a bit. I feel like I am finding too many of these and given the implied scarcity from the value difference, it doesn’t feel right. I have not, on the other hand, found a single example of the weird “I” or the weird “N.”
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks for input. I like your style in assessing long 'E' foot and slope of top of the R and agree there seems to be variation. I wonder how the originators of flaws sorted this? We an use computer now for accurate measurement of angle and distance. Maybe we can re-evaluate them, if we can get hold of a few thousand. Maybe over inking causes the lower % increases in the E and the approximate 20% is a true increase. Maybe same for the R and we can look at high magnification to see differences

We need a source for the original flaw definitions and how they were calculated. This is also true of the Saar overprints. We need a German expert group publication, if there is one?

I also like the Krone-Adlers and here in contrast here we have thousands of flaws and all well documented. It is interesting that Michel only lists a very few of the 10Pf Krone Adler flaws whereas there are over 1400 (many constant but scarce) in the study group annals.

The 14 PF XIV I can only demonstrate using the Mi. 100 PF VII ( it says these are the same ) and I send scans. I believe it refers to a small line of ink below the S.

The XXV is mentioned, as you say, but I cannot find the flaw in Michel. More work needed.

I also found the 75c headlights for Mi. 15 I and XXIII ( SEE SCANS).

1. Whole stamp showing XIV.


Image


2. Second example (different stamp) showing XIV with enlargment

Image


3. 15 PF I ('headlight' in centre of quay)

Image


4. 15 PF XXIII (headlight on right of quay).

Image
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by jstubbs »

I’m going to go ahead and post what I have on the translation of Michel for the 1922-23 Officials. The description of overprint flaw XXV is still a mystery, but you have cleared up most of the confusions surrounding awkward translations. As text, it may be particularly useful as somethig which can be edited. I have reorganized in such a way that consolidates everything by set member, which I find easier to use. Here it is.

Variants & Overprint Plate Flaws in Michel for Saar 1922-23 Officials (Scott O1-15c, Michel: 1-11)

Michel 1-10, 12-13, 15 are followed by I indicating there is only the type I overprint (“Dienstmarke” is thicker). #11 (1 Fr) and #14 (25c magenta and straw from 1923) recognize type I and II (II is thinner, especially noticeable on the larger window in the “A”). Scott listed variants of inverted and double overprints are not noted here. Scott values are 2014 in US dollars and show MH/used. Michel values are in Euros and show MH/MNH/used (values ‘on cover’ are not included here). Current exchange rate is 1 Euro = 1.39 USD. Notice the US market is softer for these stamps.

Overprint aberrations (plate flaws) which are illustrated:
For overprint type 1 (thicker letters) there are nine types:
PF III: “MA” with both letters broken
PF IV: “M” is damaged at top right
PF VIII: top of “R” is not straight but has a ‘sanded’ top with a slope descending forward.
PF XIX: “N” is prominently thickened at upper left
PF XX: bottom bar of last “E” is clearly prolonged
PF XXI: Central descending V-shape of “M” is broken
PF XXIV: There is a small dot between M and A
PF XVIII: “I” has a ‘sanded’ declination top right
PF XXV: description pending (can be found on #12-15)

For overprint type II (thinner letters) there are six types:
PF I: “N” has prominent gouge at upper left
PF II: “N” left leg broken
PF III: “D” has prominent gouge at bottom
PF IV: “M” damaged top right
PF VI (#14 II only): “N” worn down
PF XI (#14 II only): “N” broken up

Variants (translated below) are noted as flaws on the base printing plate(s), not the overprint.

Each set member is followed in this order by: a. Scott without flaws, b. Michel without flaws, c. Michel overprint plate flaws, and finally d. Michel base art plate flaws (variants) for that issue.

••••

3c olive green and straw (red overprint):
Scott O1: 1.00/32.50
Michel 1 I: 1,–/2,50/38,–
Michel 1 I PF (IV, VIII, XIX, XXI, XXIV): 9,–/20,–/140,–
Variants:
1 PF I [A cedilla (hook shaped accent) is found under the right side C of Cent]: 12,–/30,–/180,–
1 PF II [“Ball” in the sky (?)]: 12,–/30,–/180,–
1 PF V [Broken upper right rosette]: 12,–/30,–/180,–
1 PF VI [Dot in cloud under B in Saargebeit]: 12,–/30,–/180,–
1 PF VII [Broken lower left rosette on top left (?)]: 12,–/30,–/180,–

5c orange and black (red overprint):
Scott O2: .40/.35
Michel 2 I a (dark orange with bright red overprint): –,50/–,90/–,50
Michel 2 I PF XVIII (a only): 5,–/12,–/12,–
Michel 2 I b (dark yellow orange with bright orange red overprint): 9,–/20,–/8,–
Variants (do not distinguish between a and b, assume for a only):
2 PF II [black frame above RG in Saargebeit is broken, appears as nicked]: 9,–/20,–/18,–
2 PF III [the right side of the frame around “5 cents” is broken]: 9,–/20,–/18,–
2 PF IV [black spot in left frame between 4th and 5th lantern]: 9,–/20,–/18,–

10c blue green (red overprint):
Scott O3: .40/.35
Michel 3 I a (bright red overprint): 1,–/2,50/–,90
Michel 3 I b (dark red overprint): –,50/1,30/–,40
Michel 3 I PF (III, IV, VIII, XIX, XX, XXI, XXIV): 6,–/15,–/12,–
Variants (do not distinguish between a and b, assume for either):
3 PF I [Comma after “e” in Cent]: 9,–/20,–/18,–
3 PF II [large white dot on top of the 'B' in Saargebeit]: 9,–/20,–/18,–
3 PF V [thick patch of color on the right bank of the Saar]: 9,–/20,–/18,–
3 PF VI [thick dot in the second ‘A’ in Saargebeit]: 9,–/20,–/18,–
3 PF VII [three strokes of color in the center white ornament in the left frame]: 9,–/20,–/18,–
3 PF IX [thick patch of color in the center white ornament in the right frame]: 9,–/20,–/18,–
3 PF X [Vert, white line in the quay wall]: 9,–/20,–/18,–
3 PF XI [Point below the Vert, bar of the "B" in Saargebeit]: 9,–/20,–/18,–

15c deep brown (blue overprint):
Scott O4: .40/.35
Michel 4 I: –,50/1.30,/–,40
Michel 4 I PF (III, IV, VIII, XIX, XX, XXI, XXIV): 6,–/15,–/12,–
Variants:
4 PF II [Notch inside the slash of the second ‘A’ in Saargebeit]: 10,–/25,–/20,–
4 PF V [white spot in the bushes to the left at the foot of the mast]: 12,–/30,–/25,–
4 PF VI [white spot on the middle of the quay wall]: 12,–/30,–/25,–
4 PF VII ["Tail" of cloud to the first "e" in Saargebeit]: 12,–/30,–/25,–
4 PF IX [Breach in sea wall behind the stern of the barge]: 12,–/30,–/25,–

15c orange (blue overprint) 1923:
Scott O5: 2.50/.50
Michel 12 I: 3,–/6,–/–,60
Michel 12 I PF (III, IV, VIII, XIX, XX, XXI, XXIV, XXV): 15,–/35,–/25,–
Variants:
12 PF I [white dot on the first "A" in Saargebeit]: 25,–/60,–/35,–

20c dark blue & lemon (red overprint):
Scott O6: .40/.35
Michel 5 I: –,50/1,30/–,40
Michel 5 I PF (III, IV, VIII, XIX, XX, XXI, XXIV): 6,–/15,–/12,–
Variants:
5 PF I [Vert. Line in the "0", in "20"]: 15,–/35,–/30,–
5 PF II [second clock in the town hall tower]: 15,–/35,–/30,–
5 PF V [Transverse crack (as in transversing vertically between two engraving lines) in the sky to the left of City Hall tower]: 15,–/35,–/30,–
5 PF VI [Check mark at the bottom right of the "2" of the figure "20"]: 15,–/35,–/30,–

20c bright blue and straw (red overprint) 1923:
Scott O7: 2.50/.50
Michel 13 I: 3,–/6,–/–,60
Michel 13 I PF (III, IV, XIX, XX, XXI, XXIV, XXV): 15,–/35,–/25,–
Variants:
13 PF I [vertical line at "0"in "20"]: 25,–/60,–/35,–
13 PF II [second clock in the town hall tower]: 25,–/60,–/35,–
13 PF VI [rephrase as: ‘check’ mark(s) touching the ‘2’ in ‘20’]: 25,–/60,–/35,–
13 PF VII [Transverse crack (as in transversing vertically between two engraving lines) in the sky to the left of City Hall tower]: 25,–/60,–/35,–
13 PF IX ["R" and "G" in Saargebeit up by a slash (small amount)]: 25,–/60,–/35,–

25c red & yellow (blue overprint):
Scott O8: 4.25/1.20
Michel 6 I: 4,–/10,–/1,20
Michel 6 I PF (III, IV, VIII, XX, XXI, XXIV): 25,–/60,–/40,–
Variants:
6 PF II [Cedilla under ‘C’ of right ‘Cent’]: 35,–/75,–/50,–
6 PF V [Check mark (‘mark’) at the top and bottom of the "5"]: 35,–/75,–/50,–
6 PF VI [Broken frame at lower right rosette (white bar under square enclosing rosette is broken on the right with a ‘gap’ of color)]: 35,–/75,–/50,–
6 PF VII [prominent point on the stairs above the ‘25’]: 35,–/75,–/50,–
6 PF IX [Point on the connecting line between the lower circles above the left (corner ornament)]: 35,–/75,–/50,–
6 PF X [Point on the connecting line between the lower circles at the bottom right and point between "I" and "E" in Saargebeit]: 35,–/75,–/50,–
6 PF XI [prominent point right of center in the stairs]: 35,–/75,–/50,–
6 PF XII [Check mark on the belly of the "5"]: 35,–/75,–/50,–
6 PF XIII [translation: "S" of Saargebeit down with paint (“S” descends significantly below baseline)]: 35,–/75,–/50,–
6 PF XIV [translation: "G" of Saargebeit down with paint (ink aberration touching bottom left of “G”]: 35,–/75,–/50,–
6 PF XV [Point to the left of spire and bar in the lower left frame]: 35,–/75,–/50,–

25c magenta & straw (blue overprint) 1923:
Scott O9: 2.50/.50
Michel 14 I: 3,–/6,–/–,60
Michel 14 II: 20,–/50,–/3,–
Michel 14 I PF (III, IV, VIII, XX, XXI, XXIV, XXV): 15,–/35,–/25,–
Variants (pricing does not distinguish between overprint type I & II):
14 PF II [Check mark at the top and bottom of the "5"]: 25,–/60,–/35,–
14 PF V [Cedilla under ‘C’ of right ‘Cent’]: 25,–/60,–/35,–
14 PF VI [Check mark on the belly of the "5"]: 25,–/60,–/35,–
14 PF VII [Broken frame at lower right rosette (white bar under square enclosing rosette is broken on the right with a ‘gap’ of color)]: 25,–/60,–/35,–
14 PF IX [Prominent point right of center in the stairs]: 25,–/60,–/35,–
14 PF X [Point on the connecting line between the lower circles at the bottom right and point between "I" and "E" in Saargebeit]: 25,–/60,–/35,–
14 PF XI [Point on the connecting line between the lower circles above the left (corner ornament)]: 25,–/60,–/35,–
14 PF XIII [Prominent point on the stairs above the ‘25’]: 25,–/60,–/35,–
14 PF XIV [translation: "S" of Saargebeit down with paint (ink aberration/mark touching bottom left of “S”)]: 25,–/60,–/35,–
14 PF XV [translation: "G" of Saargebeit down with paint (ink aberration touching bottom left of “G”]: 25,–/60,–/35,–
14 PF XVI [Point to the left of spire and bar in the lower left frame]: 25,–/60,–/35,–

30c carmine & yellow (blue overprint):
Scott O10: .40/.35
Michel 7 I: –,50/1,30/–,40
Michel 7 I PF (III, IV, VIII, XIX, XX, XXI, XXIV): 4,–/10,–/8,–
Broken frame on the left under figure "30"
Variants:
7 PF II [Broken frame on the left under figure "30"]: 8,–/18,–/15,–

40c brown & yellow (blue overprint):
Scott O11: .50/.35
Michel 8 I: –,60/1,90/–,40
Michel 8 I PF (IV, VIII, XIX, XX, XXI, XXIV): 6,–/15,–/12,–
Variants:
8 PF II [Dash in the second "E" in Saargebeit]: 12,–/30,–/25,–

50c dark blue and straw (red overprint):
Scott O12: .50/.35
Michel 9 I: –,60/1,90/–,40
Michel 9 I PF (III, IV, VIII, XIX, XX, XXI, XXIV): 5,–/12,–/10,–
Variants:
9 PF I [vertical line through the masts]: 11,–/25,–/20,–
9 PF II [oblique crack ("lightning rod") on right small mast]: 11,–/25,–/20,–
9 PF V ["G" in Saargebeit broken]: 11,–/25,–/20,–
9 PF VI [colored line (from smearing) the "R" in Saargebeit]: 11,–/25,–/20,–

75c deep green and straw (red overprint):
Scott O13: 19.00/30.00
Michel 10 I: 22,–/70,–/35,–
Michel 10 I PF (IV, VIII, XIX, XX, XXI, XXIV): 80,–/180,–/150,–
Variants:
10 PF I [large "headlight" (large white spot) in the middle of the quay wall]: 100,–/250,–/180,–
10 PF II [Point associated with "C" of right "cent"]: 100,–/250,–/180,–
10 PF V [white line at right in the quay wall]: 100,–/250,–/180,–
10 PF VI ["Spotlight" (large white spot) at right in the quay wall]: 100,–/250,–/180,–
10 PF VII [diagonal slash at right in the water]: 100,–/250,–/180,–
10 PF XXII [Point on border line on inner bottom right frame]: 100,–/250,–/180,–

75c black and straw (red overprint) 1923:
Scott O14: 5.00/2.50
Michel 15 I: 6,–/12,–/3,–
Variants:
15 PF I [large "headlight" (large white spot) in the middle of the quay wall]: 60,–/120,–/100,–
15 PF II [Point associated with "C" of right "cent"]: 60,–/120,–/100,–
15 PF V [diagonal slash at right in the water]: 60,–/120,–/100,–
15 PF VI [white line at right in the quay wall]: 60,–/120,–/100,–
15 PF XXII [Point on border line on inner bottom right frame]: 60,–/120,–/100,–
15 PF XXIII ["Spotlight" (large white spot) at right in the quay wall]: 60,–/120,–/100,–

1 Fr brown red (blue overprint):
Scott O15c: 10.00/2.50
Michel 11 I: 38,–/100,–/18,–
Michel 11 I PF (IV, VIII, XIX, XX, XXI, XXIV): 140,–/300,–/250,–
Michel 11 II: 12,–/32,–/3,–
Michel 11 II PF (I, II, III, IV): 40,–/90,–/60,–
Variants (do not distinguish between type I and II):
11 PF I [right denomination "Pr" instead of "Fr"]: 80,–/180,–/100,–
11 PF II [Head, the value numeral "1" is missing]: 80,–/180,–/100,–
11 PF V [white patch above the right frame]: 80,–/180,–/100,–
11 PF VI [left inner frame split by white triangle]: 80,–/180,–/100,–
11 PF VII [Point under right currency name "Fr"]: 80,–/180,–/100,–
11 PF IX [Split bell tower diagonally]: 80,–/180,–/100,–
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by jstubbs »

Here is the same format for the 1927-34 Officials.

Saar 1927-34 Officials
Overprint variations
(Scott O16-26b, Michel: 1-11)


Overprint at 24º angle appears to go from corner to corner, and at 32º from bottom side to top side. Six of eleven members have both. The rest are 24º only. The 32º are the same to slightly more valuable used, significantly more valuable unused. Scott standard values the 24º only.
Scott values are 2014 in US dollars and show MH/used. Michel values are in Euros and show MH/MNH/used (values ‘on cover’ are not included here). Current exchange rate is 1 Euro = 1.39 USD. Notice the US market is softer for these stamps.

10c deep brown (blue overprint) 1934 24º only
Scott O16: 2.10/2.50
Michel 22: 2,5–/7,–/3,–

15c deep brown (blue overprint) 1934 24º only
Scott O17: 2.10/6.75
Michel 23: 2,5–/7,–/8,–

20c brown orange (black overprint) 1931 24º only
Scott O18: 2.10/1.75
Michel 24: 2,5–/7,–/2,–

25c bluish slate (blue overprint) 24º only
Scott O19: 2.50/6.75
Michel 25: 3–/9,–/8,–

30c olive green (orange red overprint) 24º
Scott O20a: 2.10/0.50
Michel 26a [vermillion overprint]: 2,50/7,–/–,50
Michel 26b [carmine overprint]: 12,–/35,–/2,50

30c olive green (orange red overprint) 32º
Scott O20: in specialized
Michel 16a [carmine overprint]: 5,–/15,–/–,60
Michel 16b [brown red overprint]: 2500,–/3800,–/2000,–

40c olive brown (orange red overprint) 24º
Scott O16: 2.10/0.35
Michel 27: 2,5–/7,–/–,40

40c olive brown (orange red overprint) 32º
Scott O21: in specialized
Michel 17: 5,–/15,–/–,60

50c magenta (blue overprint) 24º
Scott O16: 4.25/0.40
Michel 28a [dark violet ultramarine overprint]: 5,–/18,–/–,50
Michel 28b [dark blue overprint]: 12,–/35,–/2,50

50c magenta (dark violet ultramarine overprint) 32º
Scott O22: in specialized
Michel 18: 16,–/60,–/–,80

60c red orange (black overprint) 1930 24º only
Scott O16: 1.25/0.35
Michel 29: 1,5–/4,–/–,40

75c brown violet (red orange overprint) 24º
Scott O24b: 2.50/0.85
Michel 30a [vermillion overprint]: 3,–/9,–/1,–
Michel 30a [carmine overprint]: 7,–/18,–/3,–

75c brown violet (carmine overprint) 32º
Scott O24: in specialized
Michel 19: 6,–/16,–/1,–

1fr violet (red orange overprint) 24º
Scott O25b: 2.50/0.40
Michel 31: 3,–/9,–/–,50

1fr violet (red orange overprint) 32º
Scott O25: in specialized
Michel 20a [vermillion overprint]: 5,–/15,–/1,–
Michel 20b [dark carmine red overprint]: 2500,–/3500,–/2000,–

2fr brown red (blue overprint) 24º
Scott O26b: 2.50/0.40
Michel 32: 3,–/9,–/–,50

2fr brown red (blue overprint) 32º
Scott O26: in specialized
Michel 22: 12,–/40,–/1,20
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by jstubbs »

Oops! Title of previous post should say:

Saar 1927-34 Officials
Overprint variations
(Scott O16-26b, Michel: 16-32)

I wish the post could be edited.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Congratulations on the great effort to translate the terms. I am impressed and this should help others greatly!

I hope we all appreciate your work.

Maybe we could get together an illustrated approach combining your translations with pictures of flaws? I am sure the Web would like this too!

I will have a close look at all this week and report any possible changes but from my brief look things look excellent.

The XXV is a problem and I still cannot find any reference to this.

John
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by jstubbs »

I think this is an excellent idea.

"Maybe we could get together an illustrated approach combining your translations with pictures of flaws? I am sure the Web would like this too!"
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by jstubbs »

In thinking about the Saar Officials 1922-23 variants I was interested to notice that whether it be abberations in the overprint or the base art Michel values them all the same for each issue. Take the 25c magenta and straw (Michel 14) for example. Michel identifies 11 variants (plate errors) on the base art for this issue, and like all the other issues they are all valued the same. How can this be, I wondered? Aren’t some more scarce than others? But then I thought it might make sense if the following applies. I’d love to get some feedback to perhaps learn if this idea is accurate. Let’s suppose for simplicity’s sake that a single plate was used for the entire run on this issue. The same idea would apply if the run went through say five plates, but for the sake of this example let us suppose there was just one. Then suppose the plate has 100 positions for a full sheet. Every abberant would take up one position on the plate, and so with 11 abberations I could assume the following. 1% (1 in 100) of the stamps for this particular issue would have one particular flaw, 11% (11 in 100) of the stamps would have one of the flaws, all of the flaws would have exactly the same scarcity, and no two of the flaws could ever appear together on the same stamp. I’m not sure the same idea could apply to the overprint flaws, but they too are all valued the same on any given issue, regardless of which overprint flaw it is. Is this logic sound?

If it is, then I might venture a step further, but now I am really out on a limb. Let us say that a particular issue has a 10% chance of having one of the base art flaws, and across all the issues in the set any one member has a 5% chance of having an overprint flaw (completely hypothetical numbers). The chance of seeing BOTH a base art and overprint flaw together on this issue then, is 5% of 10%, or 0.5% percent (1 in 200). If value were determined by scarcity alone, would not the value of this more rare combination be the value increase factor of one variant multiplied by the value increase factor of the other?
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

I am scrounging around Internet assembling flaws in pics.

Points made on scarcity are well taken. Now to find some and test their sale value?

John
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by jadrake »

johnrcrow wrote:More progress with change in style too Michel 53 Saargebiet onwards.

Michel 70 to 83 examples, stamps 53 to 69 surcharged.

Image
So I have a curiosity question about this set.... I love to collect shades and have done a really good job of assembling shades over the years (old school style - and considering I am relatively young at 41 it is an interesting approach to the hobby!). I am very new to Saar but a good friend of mine has provided me with a collection that is "loaded" with Saar and a 20% CV offer... so I am now not so Saar poor! :-) 170 stamps so far and I am only up to this set. Now in the unoverprinted set, in Michel you will see descriptions like
  • 40pf (dunkel)orangerot/dunkelrosa
which is basically
  • 40pf dark orange-red and dark rose (or pink)
  • 40pf orange-red and dark rose
meaning there are two shades (the brackets indicating the difference) however from a pricing/rarity perspective they are the same and not given unique numbers or values. Hopefully everyone is following me here. Now for the set Michel 70-83 they took the 53-69 and overprinted it. In Michel some of the stamps will have different colors applied to the overprints. For example 72 A is either
  • dark violet-ultramarine
  • dark blue or blue
Now 72 A is 58 A which is only available in one color, but what if the unoverprinted stamp was in multiple colors and shades (such as the orange-red example above)?

Question Any recommendations on if I was going to make advanced pages how I should treat this? Focus on the overprint varieties and only call out stamp "shades" that I can place? Or is this issue really an extension of the previous set in which virtually any shade issued from the previous could have the overprint, and in the case of 72 A I or 72 A II could have multiple variations (three in fact) or overprint colors? 77 A I and II are an example. The base stamp was printed in effectively 4 possible combinations (I have clearly three) and then the surcharge is in two combinations (it is a bit mind numbing)

*Note*: For similar conundrum's (like the cathedral issue of Allied Occupation after the war where many perforations exist, I will include each of the defined shades for each perf. - this was due to my assertation that the perforation differences were caused by different perf. settings (due to shortages) being used on limited available machines under extreme printing situations - volume wise)
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

If you go the way of shades and OP possibilities you may end up with more gaps than looks decent, however you can mount them as you get them and then remount if a larger picture emerges.

I hope this is the meaning of your question? I almost forgot the thread so thanks for reinvigorating it. Please develop your theme more.

I have at last completed the Saar/Saargebiet collection including the expensive ones!

John
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by ddaann »

I would appreciate comments on whether these are obvious fake o/p or do they merit submitting for a certificate? I am also thinking the 10M is a regum. Both have no evidence of having been hinged. If they look good to you, who offers the most reliable certs for Saar? THANKS.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Concerning the high Mark overprints ddaann.

Both are false and are relatively crude forgeries. See earlier posts in this thread where you can find genuine overprints for these stamps.

John
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Post showing genuine overprints was on Sat Oct 05, 2013 00:15:33 am from classical stamps.

You can see now why yours are not quite the same!

John
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by ddaann »

For one thing, the font is different and seems to have rough edges. Thanks! I guess I'll send them to the APS reference collection to get them out of circulation. Dan
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Before I delve into Imgur for the whole thread I thought a resurrection of interest was in order.

I obtained an interesting handbook on SAAR by Paul Staedel.

Scan of cover of SAAR - Handbuch (French and German).

Image


The Handbuch goes into good detail and I can start with these dealing with the nature of the overprints on the Germania issues.

The diagrams are a little woolly but they do state measurements that are useful to identifying genuine overprints and flaws.

Such measurements are presumably based on expertise and are more detailed than in Michel.

They also sort out some discrepancies I have noted with sizing of examples that confused identification. I will go into this further when I show examples of varieties I have.



Scan of whole page dealing with varieties of Types I, II and III Germania Sarre overprints.

Image




Scan of enlarged section of Varieties for Type I Germania Sarre overprints.


Image




Scan of enlarged section of Varieties for Type II & III Germania Sarre overprints.

Image





Scan of enlarged section of Varieties for 1M Germania Sarre overprint.

Image



There is an assessment of the rarity value of the varieties where the base value of the stamps as a multiple indicating scarceness.



Scan of rarity values of Types I, II and III Sarre Germania overprints.



Image


As a reminder, here are Michel catalogue varieties (shown early in thread)..


Scan of Michel varieties for Germania Sarre overprints


Image


Image
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by maptrekker »

I see that the varieties do not follow the Michel "numbering" -- that could be confusing.

The detailed measurements are very helpful.

I see that the 1 Mark Michel Type II can be further defined as being 9.5mm or 9.8mm.

Great information.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks maptrekker, I like the measurements too as it sorts out some difficulties.

Here are scans to help identification.


Page showing Michel Type I variants of Sarre overprint postage stamps.

Image

Next follow enlargements-

Scan of Michel I PF A and B of Sarre overprint postage stamps.

Image



Scan of Michel Type I, I PF C and D of Sarre overprint postage stamps.

Image

Have a doubt on the C as this has a CV of €400. The line is bulged and this could be a deliberate attempt to falsify stamp.

Shade is OK (checked separately).


Scan of Michel Type I, I PF E and F of Sarre overprint postage stamps.

Image




Scan of Michel Type I, I PF G and H of Sarre overprint postage stamps.


Image



Scan of Michel Type I, I PF I and J of Sarre overprint postage stamps.

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Other variants of Type I Michel defined.

Examples discussed later.


Scan of other Michel Type I variants of Sarre Postage stamps



Image




Now showing close ups Michel Type II and II variants.

No examples of mine shown here (to be shown later).


Scan of Michel Type II variants of Sarre Postage stamps.


Image



Scan of Michel Type III variants of Sarre Postage stamps.



Image
Last edited by johnrcrow on 24 Dec 2017 05:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by Alfonso »

Here are the Saar pages in my German Album. Not the best Images I'll post Better images in my Goodies Thread.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Here is a comparison of identification of variants by Michel and Handbuch.

The x value indicate mark up on CV of a stamp with normal overprint.

The reddish boxes show Michel letters of identification.

The Handbuch diagrams are shown in grey.

The Handbuch B (Michel C) is only recorded on 5Pf).

I notice thatI may have made an error with the Handbuch Q as SII and Handbuch U as SII?


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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Alfonso thanks for sharing.

Lets have some close ups of your Sarre and Saargebiet stamps in this thread to see if there are any variants.

I have discussed all stamps from Saargebiet (1920- later) above but we should expand this through looking at other peoples stamps.

John
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Some of my examples of Type I Michel designated Germania Sarre Postage stamps

K I

Image


K II

Image


L

Image


M

Image


O I


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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

O II


Image


P


Image



S I AND A

Image

Q I and A


[Image
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by maptrekker »

The comparison chart is excellent. If I may suggest some corrections and comments.

HB P & PI → Michel KI & KII

HB U → no Michel equivalent

HB AW → Michel S

Michel OII, NII, Y, and Z have no HB equivalents. HB may consider Michel OII an early state of Michel OI and lump them together as HB O.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by Alfonso »

Here are some closeups I'll get the others when I get a chance.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Thank you maptrekker, I note and agree.

Let us us aim at showing one of each here (maybe) so dig out those Sarre´s.

Thank also to Alfonso. I will look carefully at enlargements and see what you have.

It is Christmas eve here and sunshine that is now getting typical of Austria at this time. Global warming?

I will wade through stamps looking for interesting examples.

The measurements in Handbuch certainly alter my perspective on previously examined stamps as compared to Michel´s rather strict guidelines e.g. on Type sizes for the Sarre overprints.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by maptrekker »

Mi 6 I PF N I

Image

Mi 7 I PF F

Not exactly the same as the one you posted.

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks maptrekker.

The F is a smaller nibble and I have a few like that.

I wonder if there is any information as to how these overprints were produced, where and by whom?

John
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by Global Admin »

Nothing too valuable, but a rather pretty SAAR piece from stock, I'll add here to bring this very interesting thread up again!
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SARRE overprint stamps lovely VFU cds to 75pf on 1920 piece.
21-3-20 cds from Saarbrücken 3 – (St. Johann)

Glen
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks Glen.

Pretty enough.

I will dig around for some more SAAR!

John
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Now posting errors in SAARGEBEIT overprints. Gaps between lettering and mis-perforation induced aberrations.

Here is table from previously cited SAAR HANDBUCH (Image below).
This goes into better detail than Michel.

Scan of front cover of SAAR HANDBUCH by Paul Staedal.

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Scan of table in HANDBUCH showing letter placement errors.


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Scan of mark-up for various letter placements.

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Here are Michel tables covering overprint errors as a reminder.

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No details on spacing in Michel tables!
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by Global Admin »

Wow - what a handbook - you could do an 8 Frame exhibit just on that one issue! :lol:
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Indeed, another detailed study of the German stamps.

As a reminder here my pages of the stamps with SAARGEBIET overprints.
Much time has passed since the were aired here.

Scan of Michel 32 to 43 GERMANIA issues with SAARGEBIET overprints.


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This a more advanced page showing variants in Michel.

We also have later issues.

Scan of Michel 44 to 52 issues, 1920-Mi.44 to Mi.49 and 1921 Mi.50 to Mi.52

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Note there is a mistake here as the 44b is WRONG!

I can dig up a 44b up I am sure.

Enlargements follow so no real need to investigate these further.

Basically these are all low CV stamps (indicting common), exceptions are Mi.38y and the 2.5M Mi. 43c (€1100 used!) and I cannot verify mine.

Rarity comes in with dealing with flaws and overprint problems.
Last edited by johnrcrow on 24 Aug 2019 04:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Overprint shifts

These are common.

A typical one where shift is not so extreme is shown below.

Scan of 10Pf Michel 45 with slight overprint shift.


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I note the bent and weakened ´E`in what is othwise a clean overprint.






Scan of 10Pf Michel 45 with major overprint shift.

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Things can get out of hand. Inverted overprints are uncommon.


Scan of 10Pf Michel 45 with inverted overprint.

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Scan of block of nine 5Pf Michel 44b with overprint shifts.

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Note also that the overprints are also angled up to the right.






Just see what a decent centred overprint looks like a block of sixteen 20Pf Michel 35.

Scan of block of sixteen 20Pf Michel 35 with well placed overprint.


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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Scan of a pair of 20Pf Michel 35 on piece with slightly angled overprint shift.

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Scan of 40Pf Michel 37 with overprint shift.

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Angled down right.





Scan of 10Pf Michel 33 with overprint shift.


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Level overprint.





Scan of 15Pf Michel 34 with diagonal overprints.


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Scan of 50Pf Michel 38x with shifted overprints.

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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Space between letters of overprint.

Referring to the Handbuch tables for identification.


Scan of Handbuch Type A gap between S-A in SAARGEBIET on Michel 35.

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Scan of Handbuch Type C gap between R-G in SAARGEBIET on Michel 46.

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Scan of Handbuch Type C gap between R-G in SAARGEBIET on Michel 48.

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Scan of Handbuch Type E gap between E-B in SAARGEBIET on Michel 48.


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Last edited by johnrcrow on 24 Aug 2019 04:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saar & Saargebiet stamps 1920-1935. A detailed discussio

Post by johnrcrow »

Scan of Handbuch Type F gap between B-I in SAARGEBIET on Michel 33.


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Scan of Handbuch Type G gap between I-E in SAARGEBIET on Michel 47.
[/b


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Scan of Handbuch TypeH gap between E-T in SAARGEBIET on Michel 38X.
[/b
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Nice piece here with block of four and full HAN with two gaps Types F and H.

Scan of Handbuch Type F and H on block of Michel 45 with full HAN number below.
[/b

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