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Discuss and share the 1920s German 'Inflation era' stamps and covers

Posted: 08 Mar 2014 14:49
by concustom
Page of German inflation stamps (1923?? all??) with values grandpa wrote down. Anyone have an opinion what the real worth might be? Rarity? Some are mint with a hinge on it. Some doubles.

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Thanks

Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 08 Mar 2014 15:05
by doug2222usa
Some of the German inflations are worth a considerable sum when genuinely postally used, and therein lies the problem.

There are millions of bogus copies, with post-dated cancels, phony cancels, and genuine stamps with genuine cancels, but impossible combinations; it requires an expert to sort all this out, and that doesn't come cheap.

All the inflations that pass through my hands, I automatically figure them at 5 cents each. If I miss a rarity and someone else finds (or buys) it, then God bless them. :)

The Michel-Spezial Catalog (specialized) gives you a good running start on varieties and errors, and can alert you to the most prevalent bogus items, but that's not the same as expertization. So if this page of 57 stamps were mine, I'd be asking US $3 to $5.

Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 08 Mar 2014 15:14
by fromdownunder
In mint hinged condition they are mostly worth nothing. In used condition, depending on getting a certificate (which will cost more than the value of 99% of them, they can be worth $1 and up.

There is one used worth serious money, the 800T on 500m (S.G. 300, used only Catalogue GBP 1,800) but only with a certificate of authenticity - they have been extensively forged in used condition.

There may be some specialist items also worth some money, but again, you need an expert to verify that they are genuine. In a collection, such as you have displayed, the chances of a real find are pretty remote.

Edited to Add: The 20/ references in pencil would be pence or cents, not Dollars.

Norm

Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 08 Mar 2014 15:28
by fromdownunder
Here is a used set of German inflation stamps that I own. The set is catalogued mint at £2.30 Mint and £ 20.40 used.

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Most German inflation stamps have a similar ratio. I have quite a few other inflation stamps used, and have no reason to think that they, as the above items, are not genuine postally used.

Theoretically they are worth considerably more used than mint, but certificates of authenticity would cost up to £40 for each stamp. Not worth the trouble.

Norm

Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 08 Mar 2014 15:43
by concustom
Thanks for the information. I am discouraged that any might be fake. Is the trend you (and the collecting community) are finding to be recent forgeries or counter fit stamps printed/post marked back in the 1920's/30's etc?

Also - not sure of the process to get them authenticated. Might be worth to get the one you mentioned above to be authenticated??
i.e. 800T on 500m (S.G. 300, used only Catalogue GBP 1,800) but only with a certificate of authenticity

Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 08 Mar 2014 16:17
by fromdownunder
Don't get the responses wrong. The mint ones are genuine, as they are not worth faking. You can buy them by the sheet for a few dollars, so why would anybody spend any time or money trying to forge them. Just buy a truckload and do what you want with them.

It is postally used, and even then only a couple from the entire series that are worth big money, and worth getting certificates for. You don't have an S.G. 300 postally used in the lot you scanned, so there is nothing on that page worth trying to get get a certificate. The lot are worth a couple of dollars, maybe. And I have no doubt that they are all genuine.

Norm

Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 13 Mar 2014 13:32
by concustom
Thanks for the info. I am trying to find out more about how the value is determined for these issues. I have what looks like an SG300 (800 on 500 M) Unused in the bunch. Also a used 800 on 400M. What determines the value? Is it the number that were issued of the SG300? What is the value of a used 800 on 400 (with perforation holes WB or BW and with cancellation marks). Why are mint varieties valued less? I assume they were purchased way back but not used (unless the post office had a dumpster full).

Thanks in advance

Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 13 Mar 2014 13:57
by fromdownunder
Actual market value is, like most things supply v demand. Mint German 1923 hyperinflation stamps are, as I said, available in their millions. Used, considerably less, and used that would satisfy an inflation specialist even fewer.

Why most of them are worth more used than mint is that inflation was so rapid in 1923, that by the time they managed to print/overprint some stamps and distribute them, they could not be used on a letter or parcel - they were worth nothing compared with even the then postcard rate. So they hung around unloved and unneeded and were dumped onto the collector market probably not long after the Mark was revalued - this is to an extent speculation on my part, but logic tells me that this is what happened.

As far as SG 300, (and a couple of others to a lesser degree) Germany was overprinting anything they could find in stock, and there may not have been that many left to overprint, so most remaining exist in mint condition and very few used, because by the time they reached the Post Offices, there was nothing left to use them on.

Norm

Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 13 Mar 2014 14:08
by concustom
Thanks Norm for your knowledge and to this board for existing. I am learning alot!

Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 13 Mar 2014 14:24
by doug2222usa
Another factor, the rentenmark replaced the old marks in December, 1923, rendering all the stamps (with denominations in the millions and billions) obsolete with one penstroke.

The rentenmark, a stable and publicly-accepted currency backed by the proceeds from mortgages taken out on land and buildings owned by the German government, was in turn replaced by the Reichsmark in the fall of 1924, and denominations reverted to the "normal" pre-war 3 pfennig to 5 mark range.

To the best of my knowledge, the final extremely high denomination stamp was issued November 19, 1923. (Michel #335B)

Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 13 Mar 2014 15:08
by europhil
The first Rentenpfennig stamps were issued on Dec. 1, 1923. The
old stamps were still valid through Dec. 31 at a rate of 10 billion
Marks = 1 Pfennig (i.e. a trillion to one).

Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 13 Mar 2014 15:43
by fromdownunder
Jay, was the conversion based on a Billion being the then British version - a million million ( 1,000,000,000,000), or the American version where it was/is thousand million (1,000,000,000).

Norm

Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 13 Mar 2014 16:46
by europhil
The German version is 10 milliarden Marks = 1 Pfennig, so that would
be the same as the British version (milliarden = 1,000 million).

I gave the American version (billion = 1,000 million). At some point
in the past I was probably aware that the Brits were different, but
those brain cells have died.

Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 14 Mar 2014 20:13
by Karni
HI .... can someone tell my if you run into something like this ?



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Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 14 Mar 2014 20:27
by johnrcrow
A quick note.

It is worth looking for flaws even on the mint varieties of the Inflations.

Flaws are not faked generally and also a flaw on cancelled stamps adds value to their study, a false cancel on a flawed stamp does not change the stamp from being flawed (!!). I mean that the CV can be assessed for such a stamp at least as that of the uncancelled.

The flaws on inflation issues are wide ranging and there are several other threads where these are examined. Getting a copy of Michel specialised catalogue in English covering the inflation period is good start. Maybe I will hoist in a range of flaws so0n to illustrate where to look, even for all those pristine uncancelled items?

John

Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 14 Mar 2014 20:29
by JKA
Karni,

They are just plain old DDR (German Democratic Republic) stamps from 1957, and the left one should properly go into the bin.

Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 15 Mar 2014 01:14
by Karni
Thanks

Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 15 Mar 2014 02:25
by johnrcrow
As examples of 'value' for inflation era stamps here are a couple of pages from
the : 'Plattenfehler Katalog' DDR 1949-1990 (S. Auflage). ISBN 3-932769-25-2

These show that non cancelled flaws can have a 'good' CV, prices in Euro.

These are major flaws and there are many other minor ones to be 'had'.

The more common stamps then are worth a second look and you can get a lot of common ones cheap.

I will dig out flaws hat emphasise this more soon (actual stamps!).

John



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Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 15 Mar 2014 19:28
by JKA
John,

Thanks for sharing, will look closer to those Reich stamps I have.

Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 15 Mar 2014 19:45
by JKA
John,

Perhaps you can start a new threath, Help me to identify my German flaws? Or something?

Re: Germany Inflation Stamps Value

Posted: 16 Mar 2014 03:34
by gavin-h
JKA wrote:Karni,

They are just plain old DDR (German Democratic Republic) stamps from 1957, and the left one should properly go into the bin.
To qualify that statement, JKA is saying this because he believes the stamp is damaged, not a printing floor. I agree with him - I'm sure if you look closely, you'll see that the surface has been damaged, probably by another stamp having been stuck to it and removed. :idea:

Re: Germany inflation period stamps and cancels

Posted: 05 Jul 2014 14:17
by organicm
I'm not an expert on cancels and I'm not sure exactly what you want to know but I'm interested in discussing the hyper inflation stamps, so I'll just post this page to kick the conversation along.

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Most of mine are the cheap mint variety. To get all of these with genuine cancels can be a future goal of mine.
Mark

Re: Germany inflation period stamps and cancels

Posted: 05 Jul 2014 15:26
by aethelwulf
The first of your "can't finds" I think is Austrian. The next is from the Germania series, that preceded the inflation-era numerical designs.

The German inflation period is one of my (too-many) collections. I focus on collecting postal history--some great covers can be found with frankings of large blocks. That's also a better way to know if the postmark is genuine. :!:

Re: Germany inflation period stamps and cancels

Posted: 05 Jul 2014 18:19
by Vangelis1978
Mark very nice collection

So, as far as the cancels matter some experts or collectors that study this stamps and cancels
can identify the real from forgerie and valuate the stamps of that period. Most cancels are forgeries so Mark u should give better scans.

I appreciate your help aethelwulf

Vangelis

Re: Germany inflation period stamps and cancels

Posted: 05 Jul 2014 18:47
by PeterD
I have posted my collection of German Republic 1920 - 1923 on another post, http://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=52673&p=3886555#p3854867

As this collection was assembled originally in the 1920s, I am guessing that the cancellations on those franked are genuine, anyway enjoy.

Re: Germany inflation period stamps and cancels

Posted: 10 Jul 2014 00:57
by imhotep
Vangelis1978 wrote:Mark very nice collection

So, as far as the cancels matter some experts or collectors that study this stamps and cancels
can identify the real from forgerie and valuate the stamps of that period. Most cancels are forgeries so Mark u should give better scans.

I appreciate your help aethelwulf

Vangelis

All the cancels shown, should be good - no forgeries, imho.
Quite common, no stamp beyond 1 Pound.


Peter

Re: Germany inflation period stamps and cancels

Posted: 10 Jul 2014 07:52
by Vangelis1978
Peter its the same for my stamps ,low value?

Vangelis

Re: Germany inflation period stamps and cancels

Posted: 10 Jul 2014 08:27
by europhil
You really need to get a catalog. If you can't buy one, try a library.
Perhaps Karamitsos would have some older editions you could buy
or borrow.

Re: Germany inflation period stamps and cancels

Posted: 11 Jul 2014 03:13
by Vangelis1978
Thanks europhil for your advice , but I dont think that karamitsos have except greek cat. something else.
And yes I should have a catalogue in this you have right ,but till I get one many members help me with my collection that have stamps from 50 countries.

Vangelis

Re: Germany inflation period stamps and cancels

Posted: 11 Jul 2014 15:33
by fromdownunder
Vangelis1978, surely you have Libraries in Greece, and surely they have stamp catalogues that you could borrow or at least look at in the reference section?

In my first phase of collecting way back when, half my free time was spent at the local Library looking up my stamps. Even my school had current Gibbons catalogues.

Norm

Re: Germany inflation period stamps and cancels

Posted: 11 Jul 2014 20:33
by Vangelis1978
Norm, I did try the library but believe me only greek cataloge I found.

Vangelis

Detailed look at my German Inflation era Postage Stamps

Posted: 17 Jan 2015 04:59
by johnrcrow
First I hope that this is the relevant area for this series of postings. If not then admin please direct it to the best slot. It may need a separate thread?

Having just sorted through my collection of stamps and letters of the German inflationary period, and scanned a large number, I thought it interesting to show the complete series I have, with the Michel tables in English, in order for people to better evaluate their examples.

There are many references and excellent features on the inflation period here in Stampboards so I am loathe to compete however, I think an examination in detail of the era with examples of variants etc, would value add a great deal.

So this is for beginners in the area as well as more advanced collectors. I hope it generates discussion, particularly when I get on to the postcards and letters of the period. Hopefully it will answer the more simplified questions often sent as well as stimulate some argument on more difficult stamps.

I am putting 5-6 scans only for each posting. They show examples of all postage stamps issued and that might have been used from the period mentioned in the title. Where appropriate I have examined some features of stamps in more detail. I then move on to the postcard and letters of the various postal charge changes throughout the period.


Please try and ignore my pencilled annotations, I have a well thumbed and used copy of Michel in English.

Note. In Tables following a,b,c etc denote shade differences.
I and II denote differences in crown cross and script. I features an absence of a cross, II shows a normal cross, as shown below.
** Never hinged mint (NHM)
* Hinged mint (HM)
Circle with dot = postally used
Letter sign is general value for any printed matter (examined in detail later).

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Table 1. Michel English list Jan 1920 to April 1921.

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As usual determination of colour is a problem particularly with cancelled (used) examples. Expertisation is recommended, but even here I have examples where there are large colour differences in what have been designated the same variant! Also computers can never reproduce the conditions for best examining the stamps.

As mentioned by many others, the cancelled stamps are valued much more highly as CV than mint. This gets worse as the window for the use of the stamps was shortened in the hyperinflation era. Most of the cancels are regarded as false and used stamps are best valued after expert.

Figure 1. My page showing Michel (Mi.) 140 to 153 (plus four 1921 stamps dealt with below)


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Figure 2. My example the 3 Michel 140 shades all signed as genuine.

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Figure 3. My examples of signed Mi. 142 shades.

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Figure 4. My examples of signed Mi. 143 a and b shades.


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Table 2. Plate flaws.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation Postage Stamps

Posted: 17 Jan 2015 05:37
by kuikka
Very nice, thank you for posting them. Do you have any example of 2 plate printing vs. 1 plate printing?

Kimmo

Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation Postage Stamps

Posted: 17 Jan 2015 05:49
by johnrcrow
I have forgotten to mention the watermarks and they are important for identifying stamps. So far and below, all the watermarks are type 1, in German Wz. I named Rauten (lozenges).

WM 2 comes in later and is in German Wz.2 Waffeln (Waffles).


Next 4 are not so easy to assess as they rely on colour and gloss of the overprint.

Table 3. 1921. Mi. 154 to 157.

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Table 4. Plate flaws.

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Figure 5. Enlarged Mi. 154 to 157 from my collection in Figure 1.

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Figure 6. Signed Mi. 154 examples.

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Next we have a common lot and notice very little CV for mint. The ones that stand out are the 10Pf. where the shade (b) commands a high CV and some of the shades of the 5M red
(b and c) and the 20M b.


Table 5. 1921. Mi. 158 to 176.

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Figure 7. My page of Mi.158 to 176.

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Figure 8. My proofed NHM Mi.159b

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation Postage Stamps

Posted: 17 Jan 2015 08:27
by johnrcrow
I am looking for example of Type I, I know I have some but where? Someone could post one please?


Figure 9. INFLA proofed 159a for comparison. 159b also INFLA Berlin proofed.

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Figure 10. Close up of Mi.176 from my page. Not too sure these are correct, comments welcome.

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Table 6. Mi. 176 variants.

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Here we look at the pattern behind stamp (Burelage). Burelage features in more stamps that follow.

Now a watermark change to Waffles.

Table 7. 1921 Dec to 1922 August. Mi.177 to 196

Common stamps but some with very high CV if proofed cancelled. Note 5, 10, 15 and 30 Pf- Mi. 177, 178, 179, 181 and 80Pf, 120Pf, 160Pf as well as 194 shades b,c.


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Figure 10. My page cancelled Mi. 177 to 196.

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Figure 11. Close up my 5,10 and 15 Pf high CV (not proofed so suspect- comments welcome).

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Figure 12. Closer look at my Mi. 180 to 190. Again not proofed.


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Table 8. Plate flaws

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation Postage Stamps

Posted: 17 Jan 2015 08:52
by johnrcrow
Figure 13. Signed 194 5M. WM2.

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Two that slot in now. This time with Waffles (Wz 2)watermark as against lozenges (Wz 1).


Table 9. Mi.197, 198.

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Figure 14. Close up my Mi. 197 198. I will check for more cancelled and that brown lilac!

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Table 10. 1922. Mi.199 to Mi. 204. WM 1 (Losenges)

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Figure 15. My page including Mi. 199-204

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Figure 16. Some INFLA Berlin proofed examples. Mi 199 a and c.

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Figure 17. Some INFLA Berlin proofed examples. Mi 199 a and d, Mi. 204a and b.


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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation Postage Stamps

Posted: 17 Jan 2015 10:01
by johnrcrow
Michel 205 - 209.
There was the introduction of post horns with Mi. 171 to 173 (two colours, WM 1).

Now we get the two coloured post horn with different methods of printing namely Flat plate P-Plattendruck or Rotary press (W)-Walzendruck) alternatives for stamps.
Some aid to identifying which is shown in Table 11. I can come back to this if there is any more interest.

Table 11. Michel 205 to 209.

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Table 12. Flaws.

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Figure 18. Close up of post horns shown on my page Figure 15.

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Figure 19. Mi. 207P and 208P INFLA proofed.

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Now for the airmail issues 1922. WM2 and the stamps have a coloured Burelage

Table 13. 1922 Airmail. Mi. 210 to 218

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Figure 20. My page including Mi. 210 to 218.

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Figure 21. Enlargement Mi.215 to show Burelage

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation Postage Stamps

Posted: 17 Jan 2015 10:51
by Global Admin
What a superb idea for a thread .. looking forward to the later posts!

Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation Postage Stamps

Posted: 17 Jan 2015 22:43
by johnrcrow
A slight break from Michel order to put in some scans relating to question asked and to further clarify identifications. I shall not give these figure headings.

Question as to showing No Crown Type I. Here are 2 candidates. I think the 75Pf is Ok, 80 has cancel complication.


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Annotated scan.

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P and W printings.

Here are three 50Pf examples showing P, W and shade differences. <Left to right

Mi. 209 P, 209 Wa, f given to me as 209Wb (€130!) if proofed.

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Annotated scan. Examines the 50 and stars and shows shades better.

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Michel 208 W and P (Left to right).

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Annotated scan showing differences in the 30 and stars.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation Postage Stamps

Posted: 17 Jan 2015 23:07
by Philexx
Superb thread johnrcrow, one which I will one day make good use of :D

Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation Postage Stamps

Posted: 18 Jan 2015 05:52
by johnrcrow
Now a few pages of flaws from excellent book `Plattenfehler Katalog, Deutsches Reich, 1872-1945, Verlag`. Excellent book so buy it, hope that reproductions for here are OK? The prices quoted are in €. Although in German most flaws can be identified from pictures I think.

Note that although the Inflation issues are common, particularly the mint, the flaws (including those on NHM and HM) command good to high CVs and should be looked for. These include flaws listed in Michel catalogue, as well as other flaws not mentioned in Michel. Useful I think at least to show scarcity value.

Scans denoted as PKDR (initials of title of book) 1, 2 etc.

PKDR 1. Mi144 fA. Not easy to miss.


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PKDR 2. Mi.150 f21 and fA.


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PKDR 3. Mi.152, 153 as in scan.


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PKDR 4. Mi.153, 154, 155 as in scan.

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PKRD 5. Mi.155, 157, 162 as in scan.

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Later I shall attempt to put in actual stamp scans. If anyone has these examples or any of the many following flaws then feel free to post.

Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation Postage Stamps

Posted: 18 Jan 2015 05:58
by johnrcrow
PKDR 6. Mi. 182, 183.

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PKDR7. Mi. 183, 185, 196.

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Now back to Michel Tables.

Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation Postage Stamps

Posted: 18 Jan 2015 08:27
by johnrcrow
Table 14. Michel 219 to 223.

Note high CV for 400M shades b and d cancelled.

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Figure 21. Enlargment of my Mi. 219 to 223 Wm 1.

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Three flaws I have.

Mi. 219 I


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PKDR 219 f24


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Mi. 221 I Hook on h


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Table 15. 1922 Mi.224 to 232 WM.2. Post horns with single colour.

Shades, P (flat plate) and W (rotary press) printings.


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Figure 22. My page showing Mi. 224 to 237.

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Figure 23. Enlargement of 224 to 232.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation Postage Stamps

Posted: 18 Jan 2015 09:16
by johnrcrow
Table 16. Mi. 233 and 234.


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Two flaws I have.


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Table 17. Airmail 1923. With coloured Burelage.


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Figure 24. Enlargment of my three examples. Arrow points out Burelage.

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Table 18. Mi. 238 to 245.

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Table 19. Plate flaws

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation Postage Stamps

Posted: 18 Jan 2015 09:36
by johnrcrow
Figure 25. My page showing Mi. 238 to 257.


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Figure 26. Enlargment go high CV Mi. 245. Genuine cancel?

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Table 20. 1922. Mi.246 to 257.

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Table 21. Flaws

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Fig 27. My flaw. Mi. 246 I

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Figure 28. My flaw Mi. 257 III

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation Postage Stamps

Posted: 18 Jan 2015 09:53
by johnrcrow
Some proofed stamps.

Mi. 246a and b, Mi. 248 a and c

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Mi. 254 a,b,c


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Mi. 256 b and c.

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Table 22. Mi. 258 to 260.

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Table 23. Flaws.

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My Mi. 258 to 260. All proofed.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation Postage Stamps

Posted: 18 Jan 2015 20:14
by johnrcrow
Some flaws from PKDR.

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Some of my examples

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Possible flaw.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation Postage Stamps

Posted: 18 Jan 2015 20:55
by johnrcrow
Table 24. Mi. 261, 262

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Figure 29. Page with Mi. 261 and 262 (others dealt with below).


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Mi. 261 exists in 5 different varieties (thickness and quality) of horizontal shading lines (clouds) above Wartburg Castle. They appear in vertical rows in the sheet (no price difference). The lines of shading are in 5 different thicknesses. There are also clean and blurry impressions.


Some of my examples.

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Enlargements as I like these.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation Postage Stamps

Posted: 18 Jan 2015 21:49
by johnrcrow
Inflation now really picking up and soon the overprinted issues.

Figure 30. Mi. 263 to 267.(Ignore Mi. 278 for now).

Airmail set from 1923 May/June from my collection.
No Burelage on these issues.


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Table 25. Mi. 263 to 267. High CV set cancelled.

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Table 26. 1923 Mi. 268 to 273. Number in circle.

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Figure 31. My Mi. 268 to 273. (262 shows too).

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PKDR flaws for Mi. 267, 269, 270, 271.

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Re: Detailed look at my German Inflation Postage Stamps

Posted: 18 Jan 2015 21:56
by johnrcrow
Table 27. Mi.274 to 276.

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My examples.


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