A detailed guide to GB QV 1d Red 1854-1864 'Stars' perforated stamps

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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

How can the "expert" be so wrong ?
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by TKL »

As I suspected, this block is perf 14 not the certified perf 16!

Dear, oh dear!

Scott


Thanks Scott for bringing this to my attention and to other board followers.

In view of this information and having looked at the block again, its plain to see that it is perf 14, what a mistake ......

Being a novice in this area, maybe I have correctly identified this block as S.G. C13? Any help would be most appreciated
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by pertinax »

TKL wrote:
pertinax wrote:As I suspected, this block is perf 14 not the certified perf 16!

Dear, oh dear!

Scott

Thanks Scott for bringing this to my attention and to other board followers.

In view of this information and having looked at the block again, its plain to see that it is perf 14, what a mistake ......

Being a novice in this area, maybe I have correctly identified this block as S.G. C13? Any help would be most appreciated
The block is correctly plated - plate 27 - so it's C10.

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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by TKL »

The block is correctly plated - plate 27 - so it's C10.


Thanks Scott
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Need help with this one, the nearest i could get is the three plates listed.


Image
Plate 55 looks favourite, i think its between 53 & 55 plate 46 was the nearest of all the other plates for FH so i added it just in case.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Jukes, they are all very similar aren't they?

On your stamp the frame on the left side of the NW square is quite strong, as is plate 46 (top left), whereas on 53 and 55 (bottom left and right) it is quite weak.
Image
Also, the tip of the NE large ray of the same square seems closer to the corner than the other two.

So, on balance, I think your stamp F-H is from plate 46 on the basis of the NW square.
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Thank you Bill.

I spent too long on this one and ended up going round in circles.

The one i thought was least likely turns out to be the correct one.

I have just acquired 70 "penny stars" all red shades, there is one in particular that seems to be plate 4 (alphabet 2) and according to Tonnas colour guide it is a pale red ?

I have given them a wash, when they are dry and watermarks identified i will post it up for your opinion if that,s ok.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by pertinax »

I agree 46 as well.

Note that neither 53 or 55 have the slight weakness in the right frame at about 4 o'clock.


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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Thanks Scott

Also noticed the bottom serif on the left leg of the "H" has a slight tilt.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Image

Image

Image
The top stamp is: Perf 14 - Small Crown Watermark - Alphabet 2 - Die 1
The nearest i can get are the two imprimaturs shown above, however my notes say that
this configuration is for plates 194 - 204.

I have tried C7 plates 22 - 27 in case it was die 2 but no joy.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Jukes,

Are you sure its die 1, as it looks like die 2 to me which, with a small crown w/m and alphabet 2, would make it a C3, plates 1-21. (Sorry - I can't help with the plate as I don't have my reference material to hand at the moment)
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Bill
I tried plates 1 -.21 in case I had the die wrong, to my eyes only plate 8 came near which was the reason I went for the die 1 plates.
Busy day today so tiredness maybe a factor, will have another look tomorrow.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Gotcha !
Image
Plate 15

The imprimatur for the letters HG was not very clear.
The imprimatur sheet for plate 15 showed more detail

C3 it is, thanks Bill.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

The best i can get with this one is plate 28
Image
Firm right hand frame line with no breaks, there is also a hint of the frame of the next stamp to the right which also seems to match.

The colour is C10 and according to the latest SG QV specialised, plates 28, 30 and 32 "had been defaced before the advent of the transitional and rose red inks which resulted in the elimination of the blueing of the paper. Hence they do not appear in this group." Plates 28, 30 and 32 are now in the C8 group of colours.

Plate 28 seems the best match, although the colour is incorrect.

Would appreciate the experts opinion on this one.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Image
Added to the previous post.

Could be plate 36, although the "I" does not seem to match as well, the tiny extended frame line of the south east corner is a better fit.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Jukes,

I think that plate 36 is the better fit, because the short 'L' looks better and the base line extending to the right.

It's a good game isn't it? :)
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

emason wrote:Hello Jukes,

I think that plate 36 is the better fit, because the short 'L' looks better and the base line extending to the right.

It's a good game isn't it? :)
Bill
I don,t know about a good game, it can be (insert expletive) frustrating sometimes, but i suppose that,s the way the learning process goes :D
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Image
Plate 30 seems the best fit although the stamp is C10 and plate 30 is C8.

Difficult to plate with the top of the stamp obscured by the postmark, the firm right border, straight baseline and letter positions are all there is to go on.

Plate 34 seems to be the alternative.

Would appreciate the experts view on this one.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Jukes, I don't think it is plate 30.

On your stamp, the 'F' is further to the right, and lacks the blur in the 'G' square.

Plate 34 is a better fit.
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

emason wrote:Hello Jukes, I don't think it is plate 30.

On your stamp, the 'F' is further to the right, and lacks the blur in the 'G' square.

Plate 34 is a better fit.
I thought that might be the case :D

Thanks again Bill.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Ghost07 »

Hi folks,

Not sure of the plate for this one? I believe this to be 1854 1d plum, Die I, Alphabet II, SG 17 SG 18 Specialised C1(4). Any further thoughts and have I got it right?
Image
Many thanks

Mike
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Mike,
I believe this to be 1854 1d plum, Die I, Alphabet II, SG 17 SG 18 Specialised C1(4).
I think you are right in that it is a C1 (SG.17), but I doubt that it is the rare plum shade. (I once had the opportunity to peruse a collection of over 12,000 stamps of just the C1 issue - not a single plum!)

Much enlarged images, such as your's, do distort the colour so it it almost impossible to be sure about the shade. But have a look at this image of C1 shades I posted earlier to see if your stamp resembles any of these.
Image
Left to right: red-brown, yellow-brown, brick red, plum.
Sorry I can't help with the plate.
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Ghost07 »

Hi Bill,

I can't see your image, can you repost it please?

Many thanks

Mike
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Ghost07 wrote:I can't see your image, can you repost it please?
Mike, try logging onto stampboards.net instead of stampboards.com.
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Not in good condition but,
I have this one at plate 165, the position of the stamp below matches the imprimatur sheet.
The cancellation looks like a Maltese Cross, but not sure.
Image
Would be grateful if one of the experts could confirm.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by pertinax »

jukes wrote:Not in good condition but,
I have this one at plate 165, the position of the stamp below matches the imprimatur sheet.
The cancellation looks like a Maltese Cross, but not sure.

Image

Would be grateful if one of the experts could confirm.
Sorry, not 165.

The letters are just not a 100% match. Also what the imp sheets will not tell you is that BB165 was repaired by re-entry during the imperf period and so any perf stamp from this unit would be in a second state - which it isn't.

I make it 188.

Also not an MX!


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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Allanswood »

All PB images swapped to Imgur.
:D
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by capetriangle »

Just glanced at this wonderful thread for the first time as result of the photobucket problem correction.

I plan to spend some more time upon it, especially looking at the shades and papers.

Kindest regards

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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Global Admin »

jukes wrote: The cancellation looks like a Maltese Cross, but not sure.
Image
Would be grateful if one of the experts could confirm.
MALTESE CROSS??? On ebay it might be of course. Looks very much like a numeral cancel ending in "7" to me. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Thanks Scott, much appreciated.

Glen, for the life of me i could not see that 7 until i saw your post.

Growing old is one thing, but old and blind is a different ball game :( :(
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

I have this one at plate 40, C8.

Image

Could one of the experts confirm please.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Another i think may be plate 40.
All of the corner letters are not visible, however the stamp frame lines of the stamps above and to the side are visible and seem to match the imprimatur sheet as shown.

Image

One thing i am confused about is the colour of the stamp which seems to be a rose red and all of my other stamps of this colour ID as C10, which according to the QV specialised, this stamp cannot be.
Any help would be appreciated.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Mike.

1d Red M-G looks like plate 40 to me too. What colour is it?

1d red O-K also looks like plate 40. As to the colour: if it really is a shade of rose, then it could be a C9(4) pale rose.

Plate 40 is a rare plate for C9 (CV £450), so you need to feel the paper and check to see if it is toned (pale yellow/cream) and not white or faintly blued.
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Bill

MG looks to me like a red brown

OK looks like a rose red, as to the paper, i cannot really tell the difference, however i would not describe it as white. I do not have any any C9s (as far as i know) to compare it to.

Regards
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Roger,
Sorry I called you Mike - I don't know where I got that from. :?
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

emason wrote:Hello Roger,
Sorry I called you Mike - I don't know where I got that from. :?
No problem Bill, i have been called a lot worse :D :D
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Made a big (expensive) mistake over the weekend, went to a stamp auction and purchased 500 "red stars" when i got them home and sorted, only 125 could pass for stamps.

The rest will have to be binned they are that bad.

The lot was described as "needs further research, possible finds to be had"
turns out the possible finds to be had probably meant you were lucky to find stamps in one piece.

Lesson learned.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by pertinax »

jukes wrote:Image

Are you sure it's an O?

QK plate 60??


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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Image

Scott

Not sure about plate 60, but plate 59 looks very close.
What do you think ?

Edited to say, on second thoughts i think plate 60 is a better match.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Q-K plate 45 is not too far off either; but unlikely being a rare plate.
Best wishes,
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Image

Close Bill, as you say.

Will mark this one up as plate 60, which is more likely the case.

Thanks to both Bill and Scott.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Battyrat »

Excellent article. Have read it many times now and really enjoy it.

My problem relates to the C9 transitional stamps,Gibbons description in the specialist catalogue and being able to identify them properly. The cream/yellow toned papers do not really seem to help as after 150 years most old paper has toned slightly. As the stamps were printed on white paper I am assuming the cream or yellowish toning came from the inks used at the time.The thickness and roughness as mentioned in the specialist catalogue is also problematic as the paper was hand made and varies in thickness from a good almost card type paper to thin paper more like the old scratchy toilet paper. Just wondered how other collectors identify some of the problematic shades like the Pale Rose which can be found in the C9 and C10 group stamps.

Another thought has crossed my mind is how other specialist collectors arrange the stamps in their albums. Do you use the specialist catalogue system devised by Gibbons or do you tend to arrange your stamps by another more recent line of thought by Pre and Post fire stamps. It would be interesting to know your thought on this as I am beginning to try to pull my unwieldy accumulation into some sort of coherent collection.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Battyrat,
My problem relates to the C9 transitional stamps,Gibbons description in the specialist catalogue and being able to identify them properly.
You have asked some good questions and are not alone there. The problem would seem to be that there is no defining feature of the C9s other than Gibbons', some say arbitary, definition.
mozzerb wrote: . . . . . the "transitional" terminology seems unhelpful because there doesn't seem to have been an actual smooth transition! It seems to be a case of philatelists (or SG) classifying the stamps by appearance without looking closely at the history.
This, as you can imagine, has created confusion and many divergent opinions. The only consensus seem to be that SG needs to re-write completely the parts of the specialised catalogue relating to the C8A, C9 and C10 issues.

Having said that, we have to deal with it as matters stand currently. So, how do I identify a C9? I find a process of elimination most helpful.

If it is from a plates other than 27, 31, 33-38, 40, 42-49, 52-53 or 55, it cannot be a C9.

If a stamp is on white or blue paper it cannot be a C9.
The cream/yellow toned papers do not really seem to help as after 150 years most old paper has toned slightly. As the stamps were printed on white paper I am assuming the cream or yellowish toning came from the inks used at the time.The thickness and roughness as mentioned in the specialist catalogue is also problematic as the paper was hand made and varies in thickness from a good almost card type paper to thin paper more like the old scratchy toilet paper.
The colour of the C9 paper is very slight and is usually a very pale cream or a very pale lemony-yellow. I have found that the white paper of the C10s rarely, if ever, naturally tones with age. Any abnormal toning is usually caused by the treatment it has been exposed to in the past 160 years, and is usually accompanied by a change in the colour/shade.

If it is any shade of red-brown or rose-red it cannot be a C9.
Just wondered how other collectors identify some of the problematic shades like the Pale Rose which can be found in the C9 and C10 group stamps.
The colour/shades of the C9s are noticibly paler than stamps from other issues. With a bit of practice it is possible to spot a C9 just from the colour. Have a look at these pale rose examples.
Image
The first and third stamps are C9s, while the second and fourth are C10s. Notice how much paler the C9s are compared with the C10s.

The more examples one has to compare with, I find the easier it becomes.
Another thought has crossed my mind is how other specialist collectors arrange the stamps in their albums. Do you use the specialist catalogue system devised by Gibbons
Yes. :)
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Battyrat »

Thank you, your reply has been a great help.
I managed to pull a couple of transitional Pale Rose stamps from my stock books last night. The shade to my eyes appears to be more of a pale salmon then rose. But then put 100 stamp collectors in the same room and you will get 100 different shades.
Image
The backs of the stamps certainly shows toning. It is very subtle in the hand but shows up better in the scans. The back of the stamp N-K(plate 27) although patchy almost seems to shows a white patch where the queens head is on the front a bit like an ivory head.
Image
You will probably need to stand back a bit from your monitor screen to see this. So could the toning be caused through the ink or age toning on this stamp?
Loves to collect Lundy Island and 12 miles as straight as the Puffin flies South East another little island called England.
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emason
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Battyrat,
The shade to my eyes appears to be more of a pale salmon then rose.
Everyone has a name for the colour they perceive. But bear in mind that SG's 'Pale rose' is just a name for a number of shades which correspond to this general description. Having said that, your two examples look like the typical C9 pale rose.
The backs of the stamps certainly shows toning. It is very subtle in the hand but shows up better in the scans.

I find the best way to view toning is to place the stamps face down on a sheet of white cartridge paper. Quite subtle tones can be seen better this way.
The back of the stamp N-K(plate 27) although patchy almost seems to shows a white patch where the queens head is on the front a bit like an ivory head.
I think this stamp probably has thin paper (see how prominent the large crown watermark is) and what you are seeing could be just the printed areas through the stamp, the white area being where less ink is present - just guessing.
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Battyrat »

Thank you. I feel the advice is a big push in the right direction. I will certainly be using a sheet of white cartridge paper to help check for toning from now on. Surprisingly simple but effective.

Best wishes, Anthony.
Loves to collect Lundy Island and 12 miles as straight as the Puffin flies South East another little island called England.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Image

Best i could do with this one is plate 64.

The right hand frame does not have the break 1/3 of the way up, so can only be from plates 22 to 36, 50 to 57, or 60 to 68, according to G C Tonna,s the "Penny Red Stars" book.

The frame of the stamp to the right is visible and also seems to match the imprimatur sheet.

Could one of the experts take a look and advise please.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Roger,

The 'I' doesn't seem quite right for plate 64. I think plate 65 might be closer.
Image
What do you think?
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Bill

Plate 64 & 65 were the closest match but plate 65 imprimatur sheet shows the stamp next door a lot higher, that,s why i went for plate 64 which shows the next door stamp in the same position as my stamp.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Image

Bill

What do you think ?
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