A detailed guide to GB QV 1d Red 1854-1864 'Stars' perforated stamps

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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Roger,
It might just be the scan, but the stamp to the right of your's (I-C) looks higher to me.
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Image

Hi Bill

Plate 64 (left) stamp IC seems very slightly higher than IB
Plate 65 (right) stamp IC seems a lot higher than IC

To my eyes plate 64 seems the better match going by the frame lines of both stamps, however, both plates cat price is high, with plate 65 more than double plate 64 price.

Both plates printed low numbers of sheets.

Plate 64 put to press 5.11.1860 - defaced 29.10.1861 sheets printed 19,400
Plate 65 put to press 14.1.1861 - defaced 29.10.1861 sheets printed 10,600
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Roger,

Have a look at this enhanced image of the NE corner of your stamp.
Image
The stamp to the right (I-C) appears higher than when viewed at normal size, which, to me, is consistant with plate 65 - especially when the position of the check letter 'I' is also taken into consideration, which, on your stamp and plate 65 is vertically central. Whereas on plate 64 it is slightly lower.
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Bill

Plate 65 a rare plate which had a lifespan of four and a half months and printed only 10,600 sheets, also its described in QV specialised as "exceedingly rare",
I will be happy to mark this one as Plate 65 in my ever growing collection of the penny red stars.

Thanks again Bill.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

jukes wrote:Plate 65 a rare plate which had a lifespan of four and a half months and printed only 10,600 sheets, also its described in QV specialised as "exceedingly rare".
With a CV of £850 it is the rarest of the C10s, so I hope it is plate 65 for your sake. But perhaps Scott can tell us one way or another.
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Image

Image

Another tricky one.
The nearest match i get is plate 52, however, going by Tonna,s colour guide the best match is pale rose, the stamp is also on white paper and perf 14.

According to the SG QV specialised plate 52 on white paper in pale rose, perf 14 is scarce, so i guess the plate must be wrong.

The "E" looks ok on both the imprimatur and stamp but the "T" does not look quite right.

Could one of the experts take a look please.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Roger,

Plate 67 also seems a close match.
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Image
Image

Hi Bill

Plate 67 was on my shortlist of 2, but the "T" did not look right, as the top of the upright serif seems to lean to the left, and the top of the horizontal serif seems to dip downwards to the left.

The "T" on plate 52 is also not a great match, and my thinking was the "wavy" base serif of the "E" on plate 52 was a better fit than the straight base serif on plate 67 with the "T,s" on both plates 52 and 67 very similar.

What do you think ?
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Roger,

Trying to plate an incomplete stamp is often tricky, as in this case with three of its corners and two edges missing.

If we had the complete stamp we could see the left side frame which is complete on plate 67 but weak on plate 52.

The upper left and right margins of plate 52 shows a faint blur or TRL which is absent on plate 67. I think we can see just enough of the right margin of your stamp to say that there is no such mark present.

The SE corner of plate 67 looks as though it may have been recut. The lower frame line seems to slope down to the right corner and there is thickening of the right side of the corner. These features are also present on your stamp.

So on balance, I think that your stamp resembles plate 67 more than it does plate 52.
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Hi Bill

I agree there is a lot of information missing on this one, which would have made the task a bit easier.
I will mark this one as plate 67, and agree with your summation of the south east corner.
Thanks again Bill (you have mail)
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Image

Another one i am having a hard time with.

Plate 35 appears the best match to me, although it cant be, due to the colour.

No break 2/3 down the right frame line - strong right frame line, weak left frame line - strong NE star, weaker NW star - right side (upright) of SW box weak.

The corner letters seem a better match on plate 30, (which this stamp also cannot be due to colour) but plate 30 has none of the other attributes mentioned above.

Could one of the experts take a look please.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Roger,

This is a difficult one, and I am not certain, but I think it might be a plate 27, possibly with recut (thicker) corners and check letters.

The imprimatur check letters seem to be the closest match even though they appear thinner. Also, the lower left serif of the 'E' looks high, whereas the lower left serif of the 'L' looks low on both stamps.
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Hi Bill

I went over and over every plate for this stamp and looked at plate 27 but the imprimatur that i have has weak frame lines on both right and left framelines,
whereas my stamp has a strong right frame (at least to halfway down) line and weak left.

I get your point about the corners being re cut, but should the frame lines should be consistent ?
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

jukes wrote:I get your point about the corners being re cut, but should the frame lines should be consistent ?
Yes, I should have mentioned that the side frames also look recut.

Caveat: This is all supposition on my part, I have no actual published evidence that they were recut - they just look as if they have been.
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Thank you Bill

There is no mention of re cutting plate 27 for this stamp in the books "The postage stamps of Great Britain" by W.R.D. Wiggins, the "Penny Red Stars" by G. C. Tonna or the "QV Specialised 16th edition".

Some of these "penny red stars" can be tricky little devils.

It looks like this stamp also had a lot of ink on it, going by the upward extension at the top of the right frame line.

I will provisionally mark this one as plate 27 with a few notes regarding the re cutting.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by WestNab »

Just to point out some problems with discussing shades:
1) Time, moisture, sunlight and a host of other factors could change the shade.
2) Used stamps have even more chance of changing shade.
3) When the stamps are printed on different paper, the apparent shade of the ink will change with the nature of the paper to some extent. When printed on various intensities of blued paper, the shades will vary to a larger extent.
4) Unless the scanner used (and the computer on which you are viewing this page) have been colour calibrated, the colours that appear on screen will not match those on the stamp! Different folk here posting images from different uncalibrated scanners can not really be compared.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

The Colour Guide that accompanies "The Plating of Alphabet Three" by G C Tonna seems accurate for the "Penny Stars" and shows the colours for the different papers.

There is also a guide to colours which have been affected by damp, shop window, stains, chemical bleach, ink wash and hydrogen sulphide.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Battyrat »

The Tonna colour guide is a good and noble idea in theory, but the copy I have seems to be no where near good enough to identify any shade. All the C10 shades are pretty much the same. I guess its as good as the printer could get in the 70's with a mass produced guide.

Just wondering if the quality of these guides varies a great deal as some people seem to find them ok while others find them no where near good enough.

For now it's held in my archive as simply a vintage and retro novelty.
Loves to collect Lundy Island and 12 miles as straight as the Puffin flies South East another little island called England.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Battyrat wrote:The Tonna colour guide is a good and noble idea in theory, but the copy I have seems to be no where near good enough to identify any shade. All the C10 shades are pretty much the same. I guess its as good as the printer could get in the 70's with a mass produced guide.

Just wondering if the quality of these guides varies a great deal as some people seem to find them ok while others find them no where near good enough.

For now it's held in my archive as simply a vintage and retro novelty.
I assume the Colour Guide under discussion is this one:
Image
Image
Personally, I have found it of little use, and mainly agree with Battyrat.

The main problem, apart from the usual difficulty of reproducing colours accurately, is that the colours listed do not match the colours listed in Gibbons specialised catalogue. There is no 'Brown-Rose', 'Claret', 'Orange-Red', 'Red-Orange', or 'Bright Rose-Red'. But has 'Copper' and 'Rusty Red' which are unlisted by Gibbons. (I believe they used to list 'Copper' many years ago.)

Also, Tonna is too pedantic:
Tonna wrote: There is no range of plum shades, the colour being distinctive.
Tonna wrote: Any shade which is not clearly identified in this publication has, in all probability, been affected, to a greater or leser degree, by one or more of the extraneous factors illustrated in this guide.
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Battyrat »

That is indeed the guide.

I ordered a copy as I was advised it was a good tool in helping with shades, but a very quick look proved otherwise.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Ghost07 »

Hi folks,

Looking for a little help identifying this pair. Any thoughts?

Many thanks

Mike
Image
Image
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by pertinax »

Ghost07 wrote:Image
SG40, plate 47.


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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Ghost07 »

Thank you so much Scott, very much appreciated,

Kind regards

Mike
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Ghost07 »

Hi folks,

If I may pick your brains once more please. I bought this a while ago as an SG 41 deep rose-red re-entry as per the note on the back.

I would be grateful if those that know better can confirm if this is the case and the plate number and specialised catalogue number?

Thanks again,

Mike

Image
Image
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Mike,

Your stamp 'B-G' looks to me like a rose-red C10 plate 48.
(Gap in 'O' of postage; gap in NE corner, and marginal dot below 'Y' and full stop of value.)

I can't see any re-entry marks, but they may be missing as it is off-centre, or it could be an original 'fresh' entry.
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

emason wrote:I can't see any re-entry marks, but they may be missing as it is off-centre, or it could be an original 'fresh' entry.
I have had a look at the imprimatur sheet for plate 48 and noticed what appears to be a TRL (Transfer Roller Line) to the left of 'B-G'. This would indicate that it is an original re-entry or 'fresh' entry.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Ghost07 »

Thanks so much Bill, you truly are the master and teach me so much :D

Best wishes

Mike
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

What colour is ‘brick red’?

The colour ‘Brick red’ does not exist – at least there is no example of it in “Gibbons Colour Key”, despite it claiming that it “. . . . will enable the more specialised collectors to match shades with a greater degree of accuracy”.

So why do Gibbons list ‘brick red’ in the QV specialised catalogue as being one of the recognisable colours of the ‘1d perforated stars’ for issues C1, C2, C6 and C8? With no reference colour for guidance, how does one identify a colour as ‘brick red’?

All of the following have been described as being ‘brick red’.
Image
To my eye, there are six different shades here, and could hardly be called shades of the same colour. It seems to be a case of – if it’s neither red-brown nor red-orange (nor orange-red) then it must be ‘brick red’.

So who first decided that ‘brick-red’ was a distinct shade worthy of inclusion, and what colour(s) were they looking at when they decided to call it ‘brick-red?

My guess is that, for simplicity, they gave a non-descript general name to the many shades of red found in these issues. They called it ‘brick red’ because it wasn’t in the Gibbons Colour Key, and possibly because bricks come in many colours. :)

My own view is that, no matter the shade, if the colour appears to be predominately red and doesn’t match other colours for that issue, then you are at liberty to call it ‘brick red’ and no-one can could show you are wrong!
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Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by phrag99 »

I am a postal history collector who is so ignorant on the subject of stamps! Please put me out of my misery.

Looking at this strip of 3 x 1d stars I get the feeling that the "A" is tall and most probably alphabet 4. Am I correct? If so, I believe the only possible plates are 50/1? The postmark is 1862.

Image
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello phragg,

Your strip of three 'AG-AI' is unfortunately from the 'A' row, from which the imprimaturs of most plates are missing, making it a bit more difficult to plate them, as they have to be compared with known plated examples. This means they have to be plated individually and hope that a common plate can be found.

Your stamps are rose red, perf 14, alphabet 3 which makes them C10. The best I can do is plate 67 as this is the only plate for which all three stamps are a reasonable match - but I am not completely certain.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by phrag99 »

Thanks, Bill. That's very helpful, but in view of your difficulty, I think I'll stick to postal history.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

For some time I had wanted to show the differences between the die 1 head and the die 2 head with images taken from actual stamps. But I didn't have stamps of sufficient clarity; either a cancellation was too heavy and got in the way, or the plate was too worn to show the detail. However, I now have these two examples which I am satisfied with.

The die1 example is a 1d black, and the die 2 is a 1d red C10. The individual images have been manipulated so that they appear with the same levels of light and shade for better comparison.

I had contemplated annotating them, but now think they are better left uncluttered so the images can speak for themselves.
Image
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Image

Could one of the experts take a look at this one please.

I make it Plate 48, however it is a C8 on blued paper (with light ivory head) and
large crown watermark.

The cat price according to SG Queen Victoria specialised is high for Plate 48 C8
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by pertinax »

jukes wrote:Image
I've only looked at plate 48 - that stamp has a strong extension of the baseline to the right, sorry.


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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Thanks Scott
Magnifying my stamp does have a small trace of a downward extension of the right hand base line, but as you say not as strong as the imprimatur.

Plates 39 & 43 were the other two plates out of the 3 i narrowed it down to but discounted.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Jukes,
I am a little out of practice with alphabet 3, but I think plate 37 and plate 44 are contenders.
Image
Could you post a scan of the back of the stamp as the bluing looks a little odd from the front.

Has the NE corner been repaired/replaced?
Image
Both the horizontal and vertical frame lines abruptly change thickness, as does the large NE ray across a diagonal line.
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Image

Bill
Back of the stamp, NE corner has not been repaired to my knowledge.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

The diagonal line I mentioned coincides with the corner crease seen from the back. It could have been folded over and scuffed to give it that appearance.
Best wishes,
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Bill

The crease is not obvious to the naked eye when looking at the back of the stamp, but I see your point.

I discounted plate 37 as the top serifs of the "H" are joined on that plate.
Plate 44, the bottom serifs of the "H" seem level whereas on my stamp the right serif is lower.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Image

Need help with this one: Perf 16 - Large crown watermark - Die 2 - Alphabet 2
Which means this stamp can only come from plates 1 - 15 (C5) yet the paper appears to be cream and not like my other blued paper for these plates.
Nearest i can get is plate 12 or plate 8 but my imprimaturs for those plates are not good.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Roger,
Your 'K-E' stamp is from plate 8. The blur in the right margin is a givaway.

The blueing on these stamps varies considerably and it is quite normal to find one almost without it.

It think the 'cream' colour appears mostly on the left side of your stamp and is probably just uneven discolouration.
Last edited by emason on 24 Jan 2019 06:44, edited 2 times in total.
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Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Thank you Bill.
The impramutur I have for that plate does not show the right hand side of the stamp.
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Bill
What do you think about the paper on the plate 8 KE stamp ?
Not similar at all to the other stamps I have for that group of plates.

Sorry I did not see your earlier reply
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pertinax
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by pertinax »

jukes wrote:Bill
What do you think about the paper on the plate 8 KE stamp ?
Not similar at all to the other stamps I have for that group of plates.

Sorry I did not see your earlier reply
Normal.

This one of the 'groups' of paper types for the Die 2, plates 1 to 21 range.


Scott
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by johnrcrow »

Can anyone please indicate plate for this stamp please?

Large crown, P14, given as S.G 37!


Image


Left and right stars


John

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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello John,

It looks like plate 56 to me.
Best wishes,
Bill
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by johnrcrow »

Many thanks emason

John
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by johnrcrow »

Just delving more into the stars.

Previously alluded to, but I find S.G. specialised descriptions of Die I and Die II useful.

Here are S.G. diagrams.

Die I of 1d identification according to S.G. specialised GB Volume 1.


Image



Die II of 1d identification according to S.G. specialised GB Volume 1.

Image


Description Die I enlarged.


Image



Description Die II enlarged.

Image


Due to cancels covering various parts of face, sometimes it is useful to have the other features to examine as shown in diagrams.

I find the nostril, neck and ear shape differences most useful!

John
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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by pertinax »

johnrcrow wrote: Large crown, P14, given as S.G 37!


Image

John,

I assume you realise this can't be SG37 as that is for a stamp in red-brown and the above is clearly one of the rose-red shades.

And of course, it now being plated as 56 precludes SG37 as a possibility.


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Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks pertinax.

I blindly gave the information on the stamp I received (ages ago).

I did add an exclamation mark after information, maybe this saves little face.

I assume it is a C10? S.G. 38/41.

John
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