A detailed guide to GB QV 1d Red 1854-1864 'Stars' perforated stamps

News items. General trends, new issues, new policies etc. **Whatever** you like. WORLDWIDE. Start a new thread on your question. Please do not discuss ebay in THIS forum as we have a separate and popular Forum for that discussion.

Moderator: Volunteer Moderator Team

Post Reply
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Interesting TKL.
Plate 27 is one of the most common plates of this series having printed in excess of a million sheets in a period of over five years (only plate 36 printed more sheets over an eight year period).

It is the only plate to have provided printing for six issues (C7, C8, C8A, C9, C10, C11), and it has been a challenge for collectors to collect stamps with the same check letters from all six issues.

The 'H', 'K' and 'L' letters mentioned are characteristics of this plate, which may be the only plate to have all three types of these styles of letters.

Incidentally, a block of four C11 unused with full original gum has a CV of £12,000.
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
TKL
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 187
Joined: 24 Mar 2010 09:04
Location: United Kingdom

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by TKL »

Bill, thank you for your comments on plate 27.

I certainly was not aware how common this plate was, I keep this page back because of the mentioned letters all on one block
and that it was nicely written up as well as a certificate from the Royal

The catalogue value does surprise me.
tkl - Ukraine Provisional Issues 1992/95 - 49,450 provisional covers & still rising......
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

The GB 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' - A Simplified Guide

Part 4. The Issues with Colours and Shades

Introduction
In Part 1, the differences between the Issues was discussed, and in Part 2 examples given of the different colours and shades found in this group of stamps. In this part, the colours associated with the issues in which they appear will be discussed. I will focus on the issues that show the greatest variation (and for which I have examples) namely, C1, C8, and C10, with a special mention of the C9s.

For clarity, I will use ‘colour’ for a Gibbons listed variety (e.g. orange-brown, brick red, etc.), and ‘shade’ to refer to variations within the ‘colour’; whereas most dealers and collectors refer to them all just as ‘shades’.

Gibbons list the colours of an issue by a number in brackets; thus a C1 in a red-brown colour is referred to as C1(1), and a yellow-brown of the same issue as C1(2), and so on. Many more colours and shades exist than Gibbons list (see the colour chart in part 2). Any unlisted shade is termed a ‘variety’ and is shown as ‘(var)’, e.g. a C1 Orange is written as C1(var). The catalogue should be treated as a good but incomplete ‘guide’ to the colours of the ‘perforated stars’.

Colour determination
Unlike the issues, in which each characteristic was usually a simple choice between two or three (die 1 or 2; large or small crown; perf 14 or 16, etc.), the colours and shades are not such a black or white choice. (Sorry :oops: )

When attempting to determine the particular colour or shade of a stamp, the S.G. ‘Stamp Colour Key’ is of little use. The colours of the guide are solid colours printed on smooth, white, glossy paper and trying to match them to 160 years old stamps where the colour is printed in lines on blued or toned, ordinary paper is next to impossible. A further complication is that a particular colour in one issue can be quite different to the same named colour in other issues.

When a colour is described as a combination of two colours e.g. Red-Brown, Orange-red etc., the second mentioned colour is dominant. Thus a Red-brown stamp is basically brown with some red added to it, and Orange-red is red with some orange (although many thus described appear more like Red-orange to me, but this is just my perception and others may disagree.)

-----“-----

The Issues and their associated colours

The C1 colours on blued paper
In general, C1 colours can be quite different from the same named colours of other issues; the colours seem deeper and richer. In particular, the Red-browns seems deeper; the Yellow-browns more ‘yellowy’, the brick reds more like deep brown-red, the Plum has more of a particular deep shade of red in it, and the Orange-reds seem ‘brighter’.

C1(1) Red-brown; C1(2) Yellow-brown; C1(3) Brick red; C1(4) Plum.
Image

C1(5) Orange-red; C1(var) Orange-brown; C1(var) Orange.
Image

The C1(var) Orange-brown and the C1(var) Orange are varieties i.e. unlisted colours. It is not obvious why Gibbons don’t list the Orange-brown as a C1 colour as they do for the C2(5) Orange-brown. They were printed from the same plates at the same time; the only difference seems to be the machine on which they were perforated.

The C8 colours on blued paper
The issues from C1 to C8 are printed on ‘blued’ paper. The paper started off by being white before printing, but was dampened for the printing process so that the ink would be absorbed better. The damping caused the potassium ferrocyanide in the ink to react with chemicals in the paper to produce the blue effect often seen with these issues. The amount of bluing varies considerably and is, in some cases, barely detectable.

Image

The stamp on the left is a C10 on white paper for comparison; the other four are all from C8. The bluing can alter the apparent shade or colour of the stamp; the deeper the blue, the deeper the colour appears.

C8(1) Red-brown; C8(2) Brick red; C8(3) Plum; C8(4) Brown-rose.
Image

Note how different the C8 Brick red and Plum are from the C1 colours of the same name.

C8(5) Orange-brown; C8(6) Deep claret; C8(7) Orange-red
Image

There are no obvious varieties with this C8 issue. Gibbons list the C8(6) as ‘Deep claret on deep blue paper’ leaving no room for shades of this colour. But paler shades do exist on not so blue paper, so perhaps these should be called varieties?

The C9 colours on toned paper
The C9 issue was printed on ‘yellowish to cream’ toned paper which is ‘rough and occasionally thicker’. Curiously, C9 is the only issue in which Gibbons state that there are shades of three of the four listed colours; the C9(1) orange-brown being the exception. The difference between the colours is not as obvious as in other issues and, in general, the shades are paler.

The pre-fire shades
C9(1) Orange-brown; C9(2) Red-orange; C9(3) Pale red.

Image

Following the fire in which large stocks of stamps, inks and paper were destroyed, temporary premises were obtained in Savoy Street and printing resumed there. Because much ink was lost in the fire, it seems that the remaining stocks were diluted to keep up with the constant demand for stamps, resulting in stamps of very pale colours, giving rise to the complaint of ‘thin and gritty ink’.

The post-fire shades
C9(3) Pale red; C9(4) Pale rose (very); a later C9(4) Pale rose.

Image


The C10 colours on white paper
Apart from the C8A (which is probably just a ‘variety’ and not an issue), the C10 issue was the first to be printed on white paper, as opposed to blued or toned paper. With this and the following issues, the printers finally obtained a much greater constancy in colour and elimination of paper bluing.

C10(1) Bright rose-red; C10(2) Pale red; C10(3) Pale rose.
Image

There is a feeling among many specialist collectors and dealers that these three shades shouldn’t be included in this C10 issue at all as their printing pre-dates the introduction of the true Rose reds on white paper; and as they were printed during the C9 period, they should be included there, despite the fact that they are on white (not toned) paper.

C10(4)Deep rose-red; C10(5) Rose-red; C10(6) Pale rose-pink.
Image

The C10(4) Deep rose-red and C10(5) Rose-red are the most common stamps of all the ‘perforated stars’, perhaps accounting for about 85% of all of them. The thirty nine plates used for these two stamps alone were in use over a six year period (1857-1863), compared to the previous nine issues over a three year period (1854-1857).

C10(var) Rose; C10(var) Orange-red???
Image

The Rose variety is a much a deeper shade of the C10(3) Pale rose.

At first glance, the colour of the ‘Orange-red’ variety appeared to be a normal C10(4) Deep rose-red, but when compared alongside those stamps, it is obvious there is a significant orange component to the colour and not much rose, and is best described as ‘Orange(ish)-red’.

Orange was last used in the pre-fire C9s - C9(1) Orange-brown and C9(2) Red-orange. The last known use of this type of cancel (an experimental ‘Madeleine Smith’ type 2, state 2) was several months before the introduction of the first true Rose-red. So perhaps this should also be a C9, despite its white paper and the colour not being listed.

But as Gibbons state that C9s are only found on toned paper, C10s they must all remain – for now. (The debate continues)

[Note: The brightness and contrast of all the above images have been adjusted together so that they resemble as close as possible the original colour of the stamps. They were all scanned as one together and adjusted before separation, so that direct comparisons between the colours can be made.]

-----“-----

(Continued)
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
Crispinhj
Well on the way to 25 post Senior Member
Well on the way to 25 post Senior Member
Posts: 14
Joined: 10 Nov 2012 09:24
Location: Skipton, United Kingdom

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Crispinhj »

Hi Bill

thanks so much for all this information, I've found it fascinating. I have an envelope of these to sort, and now I'm looking forward to doing it whereas before I was just dreading it thinking I had absolutely no idea what I was going to do

Crispin
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Crispinhj wrote:I have an envelope of these to sort, and now I'm looking forward to doing it whereas before I was just dreading it thinking I had absolutely no idea what I was going to do.
Good luck with the sorting. If there is anything I can help you with just ask.
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
jukes
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
Posts: 443
Joined: 16 May 2015 01:52
Location: Beckenham, UK

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Need help with this one if possible
Image
Nearest i can get going by corner letter positions is plate 65, but i read that plate 65 is a rare plate, so i end up doubting.
The year on the postmark is 1862 which would make the time frame right for the plate
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

jukes wrote:Nearest i can get going by corner letter positions is plate 65, but i read that plate 65 is a rare plate, so i end up doubting.
The year on the postmark is 1862 which would make the time frame right for the plate
Hello again Jukes.
Although the 'P' is a good fit, I think that the 'B' is too central and the base frame line too thick for plate 65.

This wasn't an easy one and I initially thought it might be plate 62, but the 'P' wasn't quite right. I have now come round to thinking plate 47 as the best fit.

What do you think?
Image
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
jukes
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
Posts: 443
Joined: 16 May 2015 01:52
Location: Beckenham, UK

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Bill

Plates 46 to 58 were from May 1844 to May 1845 and plate 47 was defaced on 27.2.45 the postmark on my stamp is 1862, would that not plate 47 a bit early ? although, saying that, plate 65 was defaced on 15.5.47 which is only some 2 years later and also a lot earlier than 1862.

The "P" seems a better fit and leans slightly to the right, also the O of "One Penny" seems to match better to plate 65.

Maybe i am reading too much into the overall stamp, as you say a tough one, and on closer inspection i think you are correct.

Thanks Bill
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

jukes wrote:Plates 46 to 58 were from May 1844 to May 1845 and plate 47 was defaced on 27.2.45.
Jukes, the dates you quoted are for the 1d red die 1 imperforate stamps.
jukes wrote:The postmark on my stamp is 1862, would that not plate 47 a bit early?
1d red die 2 perforated plate 47 was put to press in December 1856 and withdrawn in May 1864 - nicely straddling your 1862 date.
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
jukes
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
Posts: 443
Joined: 16 May 2015 01:52
Location: Beckenham, UK

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

I was looking at the wrong book, thanks again Bill.
User avatar
jukes
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
Posts: 443
Joined: 16 May 2015 01:52
Location: Beckenham, UK

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

I have tried this one and i end up with plate 68

Image


It has a large crown type 2 watermark which is after 1862 and appears a very pale red.

Comments appreciated.
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Jukes, are you sure it has a large crown type 2 watermark? I ask because only four plates were used with the type 2 watermark and plate 68 wasn't one of them. They were plates 50 and 51 which had alphabet 4 check letters; and reserve plates 15 and 16 which had alphabet 2 letters. The letters on your stamp are clearly alphabet 3.

The left hand 'A' seems to be doubled, but the stamp is in poor condition being well off centre that much plating evidence has been lost. So I'll have to admit defeat with this one - sorry.
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
jukes
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
Posts: 443
Joined: 16 May 2015 01:52
Location: Beckenham, UK

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Bill

The type 2 watermark according to the book does not have the two uprights in the middle section of the crown, which this stamp does not.
User avatar
jukes
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
Posts: 443
Joined: 16 May 2015 01:52
Location: Beckenham, UK

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Bill

How about this one, i got excited until i read the colour was wrong (deep red brown) and the frame of the stamp next door is in the wrong place, but check this one against plate 53 and see the similarities in the letter positions, the "O" of one and the stars.
Image
Still cant find a better match.
User avatar
jukes
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
Posts: 443
Joined: 16 May 2015 01:52
Location: Beckenham, UK

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Similar
Image

Best match i can find, even the "O" in One Penny is the same, unfortunately it cant be the rare plate 53 :x
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

jukes wrote:How about this one, i got excited until i read the colour was wrong (deep red brown) and the frame of the stamp next door is in the wrong place, but check this one against plate 53 and see the similarities in the letter positions, the "O" of one and the stars.
Hello jukes, I have to agree that plate 53 does seem to be the best match - apart from the plate position and colour. I can understand you getting excited - I would!

However, I think the next best match is 59 although the 'E' isn't such a good match as 53! But it is the right colour and the plate position seems to check out.
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
jukes
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
Posts: 443
Joined: 16 May 2015 01:52
Location: Beckenham, UK

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Bill
I still think 53 is a better match, but i know it cant be, although i have since read that the imprimatur sheet was printed in a deep red brown.

Is it normal for one of the check letters to be so far off ? (the "E" of plate 59) however in all other respects i can see the stamp matches, but not as well as plate 53 (especially the "O" in ONE PENNY and the stars seem the same) and i would have bypassed plate 59 purely on the position of the "E" when fist scanning all the TE lettering's.

Would you also agree that the "TE" stamp is a deep red brown, i have trouble with the accuracy of the colour descriptions

It,s hard enough when first studying the plating of the penny reds, without the curve-balls.

Thanks again for your time, its much appreciated.
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

jukes wrote:Would you also agree that the "TE" stamp is a deep red brown, i have trouble with the accuracy of the colour descriptions.
No, plate 59 perf 14 can only be a C10 for which there are no red-browns, only variations of rose-red. Your stamp appears to be a deep rose-red.
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
jukes
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
Posts: 443
Joined: 16 May 2015 01:52
Location: Beckenham, UK

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

emason wrote:
jukes wrote:Would you also agree that the "TE" stamp is a deep red brown, i have trouble with the accuracy of the colour descriptions.
No, plate 59 perf 14 can only be a C10 for which there are no red-browns, only variations of rose-red. Your stamp appears to be a deep rose-red.
I will record the stamp as a deep rose red for future reference.

Thanks Bill.
User avatar
jukes
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
Posts: 443
Joined: 16 May 2015 01:52
Location: Beckenham, UK

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

emason wrote:
jukes wrote:How about this one, i got excited until i read the colour was wrong (deep red brown) and the frame of the stamp next door is in the wrong place, but check this one against plate 53 and see the similarities in the letter positions, the "O" of one and the stars.
Hello jukes, I have to agree that plate 53 does seem to be the best match - apart from the plate position and colour. I can understand you getting excited - I would!

However, I think the next best match is 59 although the 'E' isn't such a good match as 53! But it is the right colour and the plate position seems to check out.
I have just received Tonna,s penny red stars part 2 KA to TL to complete the set.
The TE stamp also cannot be plate 59 as TE on plate 59 is a constant variety where the top serif of the "E" extends forming a "fishtail". Also it states that both Plate 53 and 59 "TE" is lower than the stamp to the right,

Also there is a write up on plate 53, of the known copies 46% are in pale rose and 39% are rose red, there is also a certified C8 and a few on blued paper.

Plate 53 was put to press (out of sequence) on the day after its registration on 11th February 1857, instead of plate 52. Plate 53,s alignment was questionable, it is suggested that it was put to press to check its acceptability for perforation and not for urgent demand for a new plate.

Interesting read which also goes on to say that there is likely to be more plate 53 out there than first thought and that it is likely that the plate was used for over a year although intermittently. Two rose red copies postmarked E12 prove the point as that obliterator was only introduced in March 1858 and another rose red cancelled WC15 must have been used after 22nd June 1859.
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

The TE stamp also cannot be plate 59 as TE on plate 59 is a constant variety where the top serif of the "E" extends forming a "fishtail".
The imprimatur for plate 59 (bottom) doesn't show this - or the effect is too slight to see.
Also it states that both Plate 53 and 59 "TE" is lower than the stamp to the right,
Image
True, but the stamp to the right (TF) is not visible in your image (centre), whereas the stamp to the left (TD) is, and shows enough of the frame line to show that TD is lower than TE as in plate 59 (bottom) but not plate 53 (top) which is higher.

Therefore it cannot be plate 53, but is probably plate 59. If not, what else?
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
EnFrstamps
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
AQUA Star Stampboards Enthusiast
Posts: 31
Joined: 08 Mar 2017 09:08
Location: Groningen - The Netherlands

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by EnFrstamps »

Great guide! A lot of useful information.

My next step will also be trying to plate all of my 'Stars Perforated' stamps. However, I still can’t decide what to use as reference. Are the CD’s or the 5 volumes by Wiggins and Tonna the best way to go or will it be smart to buy both?
User avatar
jukes
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
Posts: 443
Joined: 16 May 2015 01:52
Location: Beckenham, UK

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Bill

Here is the page for stamps "TE" from The Penny Red Stars by G C Tonna.

Plate Numbers are on the left.
Image
The abbreviations are: LFL = Left frame line -LMN Left margin narrow - nc - Not confirmed - Lw Lower than stamp on right

And the "E" from plate 59
Image
I understand my stamp is not plate 53 due to the frame lines of the stamp next door, as for the colour plate 53 was put to press on 11th February 1857 exactly 1 month before the fire on 11th March 1857 so there is a chance that the colour could have been deep rose red and Tonna alludes to this. He has also found that as the Imprimatur stamps age they are showing varying degrees of bluing.

What do you think of the "E" of plate 59 which is allegedly constant for the "TE" stamp from this plate, and as you say the imprimatur does not show it and it does not show on my stamp?
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

jukes wrote:What do you think of the "E" of plate 59 which is allegedly constant for the "TE" stamp from this plate, and as you say the imprimatur does not show it and it does not show on my stamp?
Jukes, there are several reasons why a stamp may appear slightly different from its imprimatur.

1. Tonna's illustration of the 'E' square is a drawing, and the extended serif, which is barely noticable on the imprimatur, may have been exaggerated to highlight the variety. Just compare the 'E' centre cross bar of the drawing with the imprimatur.

2. Variations will occur according to how much ink was applied to the plate, how much was scraped off, and the consistency of the ink itself. The imprimatur looks particularly well inked.

3. Plate wear will also affect how much ink can be retained in the plate grooves and will produce thinner or thicker lines accordingly. If the extended serif was due to shallow damage, then it would gradually disappear as the plate wore.

4. In your stamp, traces of the extended serif may have been removed by the perforation.

Please note that I am not nailing my colours to the mast over this one - it just appears to me that plate 59 is the most likely candidate.
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

In addition to the above, there is another variable factor. The amount of ink which is transferred to, and absorbed by, the paper also depends on how damp the paper was during the printing process.
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
jukes
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
Posts: 443
Joined: 16 May 2015 01:52
Location: Beckenham, UK

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Bill

I have listed the stamp as Plate 59 Deep rose red.

Thank you for your time, the information you have provided is extremely helpful to us novices and very much appreciated.

Now on to the next one :D
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

EnFrstamps wrote:My next step will also be trying to plate all of my 'Stars Perforated' stamps. However, I still can’t decide what to use as reference. Are the CD’s or the 5 volumes by Wiggins and Tonna the best way to go or will it be smart to buy both?
Martijn, sorry for the delay in replying to your request - I have only just seen it.

On the basis that a picture is worth a thousand words, go for the CDs of the scans first. I find that these, used with Gibbons QV specialised catalogue, work for me in most cases. You can always obtain other plating publications later if you feel the need.
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
vhrnb
Well on the way to 25 post Senior Member
Well on the way to 25 post Senior Member
Posts: 17
Joined: 29 Aug 2014 11:00
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by vhrnb »

This is a really top post for the uninitiated GB collector. Many thanks.
User avatar
pertinax
Author - 'Best Thread Of All Time' as voted by our members
Author - 'Best Thread Of All Time' as voted by our members
Posts: 2154
Joined: 01 Apr 2007 14:37
Location: Sydney

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by pertinax »

I'll just drop in to make a couple of points.

1. To the trained eye the letter positions of the subject stamp are quite different to plate 53. And of course it can't be that anyway because of the different alignment between TD at left.

2. Don't read much in to the shade - the subject stamp is badly oxidised!

3.
emason wrote:....because only four plates were used with the type 2 watermark and plate 68 wasn't one of them. They were plates 50 and 51 which had alphabet 4 check letters; and reserve plates 15 and 16 which had alphabet 2 letters.
This is untrue!
vincit omnia pertinax virtus
User avatar
jukes
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
Posts: 443
Joined: 16 May 2015 01:52
Location: Beckenham, UK

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Thanks scott

I think the problem with the stamp was that there are no other imprimatur plates for "TE" that match the letters and positions as well, and to the untrained eye (and novice) this is what i found confusing.
If i may ask, say this stamp did not have the frame of the stamp next door visible and if as you say the stamp may be oxidised (there are signs of blueing on the stamp and its a very nice colour) so the colour could well be any of the shades, then surely most would be plater,s would pick plate 53 as the best match?
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

pertinax wrote:
emason wrote:....because only four plates were used with the type 2 watermark and plate 68 wasn't one of them. They were plates 50 and 51 which had alphabet 4 check letters; and reserve plates 15 and 16 which had alphabet 2 letters.
This is untrue!
Hello Scott.
Could you expand upon this please? The information quoted above about the type 2 watermark was taken from the QV specialised catalogue. In which respect is it untrue?
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Having gone back to the QV specialised catalogue, and this time reading the small print carefully, it appears that Scott is correct (not that I ever doubted it :) ).

The main heading for the C10 issue reads:
"1857-63, Die II, Alphabet III, White Paper, Wmk Large Crown, Type 1, Perf 14"

But in the small print it states that:
"All the plates issued for the C10 on white paper exist with Type 1 watermark . . . " It then goes on to say " . . . and all are known on Type 2 paper except Plates 33, 35, 37,38, 45 and 53."

Interestingly 'hybrids' are known -
"Examples are known of Types 1 and 2 se-tenant, presumably as a result of Type 2 crowns being used as replacements for damaged or missing crowns in the Type 1 mould. These 'hybrids' are known from Plates 27, 34, 36 39, 46, 55, 57, 58, 59, 60, 65, 67 and R17."

You live and learn!

Isn't Stampboards just wonderful?
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
Ghost07
BLUE Shooting Star Posting GURU!!
BLUE Shooting Star Posting GURU!!
Posts: 940
Joined: 18 May 2012 03:00
Location: Grangemouth. Scotland

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Ghost07 »

Hi Bill,

First of all, fantastic post which has really sparked my interest in my long forgotten red stars. Inspired by your post I have had a go at identifying this one. My guess is it's a C9, SG 40, Plate 52 showing the constant variety "BG". How am I doing so far? As for shade, this has me stumped but I'm going for rose red? As for value, no idea, my QV book dates from 1979? Would appreciated you grading my work and let's see how much I have learned,

Thanks again

Mike
Image
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Mike. I actually replied to this yesterday but my post seems to have disappeared!

Anyway, I agree with plate 52, especially with that mark in the 'G' square which is listed by Gibbons as a constant variety. But what confused me initially was that the imprimatur doesn't show the variety.
Image
I can only account for this by the plate having been damaged after the imprimatur was printed.

As to the colour, it looks like rose red on my screen which would make it a C10, as C9s weren't printed in this shade. But it could be pale red making it either C9 or C10 - it depends on the paper. C9s were printed on toned paper which was "rough and occasionally thicker", whereas C10s were printed on white paper.
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
Ghost07
BLUE Shooting Star Posting GURU!!
BLUE Shooting Star Posting GURU!!
Posts: 940
Joined: 18 May 2012 03:00
Location: Grangemouth. Scotland

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Ghost07 »

Thank you so much for your reply Bill, am pleased to see I was on the right track. I had another look at the paper and from your description I would say it's a C9 based on what looks like toned paper. Not sure if the reverse scan helps you confirm this?
Image
User avatar
jukes
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
Posts: 443
Joined: 16 May 2015 01:52
Location: Beckenham, UK

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Image
Best i could do with this one, Plate 51 - Alphabet 4.

The slight bow in the frame line at the top of the north east square also matches the imprimatur.

Would be grateful if one of the experts would confirm.
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

jukes wrote:Best i could do with this one, Plate 51 - Alphabet 4.
I wouldn't disagree with plate 51. :)
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Ghost07 wrote: I had another look at the paper and from your description I would say it's a C9 based on what looks like toned paper. Not sure if the reverse scan helps you confirm this?
Hello Mike.
It's not possible from an image to tell the subtle tone of the paper, you have to feel it as well (thick or thin? rough or smooth?).

You also have to differentiate between paper which has become toned with age or misuse, and the 'toned paper' referred to by Gibbons which is a pale yellow or cream colour.

Compare the colour of the design to a number of known rose-red C10s. If it looks like a shade of rose-red it cannot be a C9, but if it is a pale red it possibly could be - if the paper is right!
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
jukes
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
Posts: 443
Joined: 16 May 2015 01:52
Location: Beckenham, UK

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

emason wrote:
jukes wrote:Best i could do with this one, Plate 51 - Alphabet 4.
I wouldn't disagree with plate 51. :)
Thanks Bill
User avatar
jukes
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
Posts: 443
Joined: 16 May 2015 01:52
Location: Beckenham, UK

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

Image
The best two matches from the all of the "QJ" sheets, in fact these are the only two plates with the "Q" in the lower left hand corner position (where the "J" is upright).

No frame of the next door stamp to help this time.

The "Q" matches plate 53 better and the "J" matches plate 31 best.

So which one is it ? :D :D :D
Last edited by jukes on 03 May 2017 06:27, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Jukes, to my eye both the 'Q' and the 'J' of your stamp match plate 31 better.

Also, look at the left frame line - it is complete in both your stamp and the plate 31 imprimatur; whereas the left frame line of plate 53 is weak and broken.
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
jukes
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
PLATINUM Star Serious Stamp Poster
Posts: 443
Joined: 16 May 2015 01:52
Location: Beckenham, UK

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by jukes »

:D :D :D Thought so Bill, the stamp is a C8 (although it looks red in the above image) which more or less confirmed plate 31.

I will carry on with my quest to find the elusive plate 53
User avatar
Ghost07
BLUE Shooting Star Posting GURU!!
BLUE Shooting Star Posting GURU!!
Posts: 940
Joined: 18 May 2012 03:00
Location: Grangemouth. Scotland

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Ghost07 »

Hi Bill,

These stamps are really growing on me. I'm thinking these are C10 although not sure of plate? I have the SG Victoria specialised catalogue, can you recommend any other literature to help with plating?

Many thanks

Mike
Image
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Mike, your stamps:

L-A to M-A I think are from plate 34. As they appear to be rose-red perf 14, they are probably C10.
Ghost07 wrote: I have the SG Victoria specialised catalogue, can you recommend any other literature to help with plating?
"The Penny Red Stars" by G C Tonna is good (seeks Jukes' post#23 above). But scans of the plates are the easiest to use.
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
Ghost07
BLUE Shooting Star Posting GURU!!
BLUE Shooting Star Posting GURU!!
Posts: 940
Joined: 18 May 2012 03:00
Location: Grangemouth. Scotland

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Ghost07 »

Bill,

Thanks again for the advice. This may be a stupid question, but where is the best place to obtain scans of the plates?

Many thanks

Mike
User avatar
emason
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
WINNER! Stampboards Poster Of The Month
Posts: 2362
Joined: 30 Nov 2015 08:37
Location: North Yorkshire, England

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by emason »

Hello Mike,

I have sent you an email.
Best wishes,
Bill
User avatar
Ghost07
BLUE Shooting Star Posting GURU!!
BLUE Shooting Star Posting GURU!!
Posts: 940
Joined: 18 May 2012 03:00
Location: Grangemouth. Scotland

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by Ghost07 »

Thanks Bill, much appreciated.

Picked up a "celebrity" 1d star with a green cancel the other day which is ex Wiggins. Wish all my stamps came with this level of information. :D :D :D
Image

Image

Image
User avatar
pertinax
Author - 'Best Thread Of All Time' as voted by our members
Author - 'Best Thread Of All Time' as voted by our members
Posts: 2154
Joined: 01 Apr 2007 14:37
Location: Sydney

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by pertinax »

[quote="TKL"]Not my collecting area but a very interest thread.

Thought this item may be of interest to fellow collectors:

One penny Die 11 Alphabet 111

Rose-Red Wmk. Large Crown

Perf 16 Plate 27 S.G.C11

Block of nine showing the Gothic 'K', tall "H' and small 'L'
Image
TKL,

Is it possible to post a scan of the certificate for this, please?

Scott
vincit omnia pertinax virtus
User avatar
TKL
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Senior Member Advanced Posting Guru
Posts: 187
Joined: 24 Mar 2010 09:04
Location: United Kingdom

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by TKL »

pertinax wrote:
TKL wrote:Not my collecting area but a very interest thread.

Thought this item may be of interest to fellow collectors:

One penny Die 11 Alphabet 111

Rose-Red Wmk. Large Crown

Perf 16 Plate 27 S.G.C11

Block of nine showing the Gothic 'K', tall "H' and small 'L'
Image
TKL,

Is it possible to post a scan of the certificate for this, please?

Scott

Sure, here is the certificate.....
Image
tkl - Ukraine Provisional Issues 1992/95 - 49,450 provisional covers & still rising......
User avatar
pertinax
Author - 'Best Thread Of All Time' as voted by our members
Author - 'Best Thread Of All Time' as voted by our members
Posts: 2154
Joined: 01 Apr 2007 14:37
Location: Sydney

Re: An Idiot's Guide to GB QV 1d Red 'Stars Perforated' stam

Post by pertinax »

TKL wrote:
pertinax wrote:
TKL wrote:Not my collecting area but a very interest thread.

Thought this item may be of interest to fellow collectors:

One penny Die 11 Alphabet 111

Rose-Red Wmk. Large Crown

Perf 16 Plate 27 S.G.C11

Block of nine showing the Gothic 'K', tall "H' and small 'L'
Image
TKL,

Is it possible to post a scan of the certificate for this, please?

Scott

Sure, here is the certificate.....
Image
As I suspected, this block is perf 14 not the certified perf 16!

Dear, oh dear!

Scott
vincit omnia pertinax virtus
Post Reply

Return to “Discuss stamps - and *anything* at ALL happening with stamps”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: maxden and 5 guests