Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Yes, the problem with used stamps is that they can just be faded due to use or soaking! Probably when comparing shades mint stamps should be used? (I know this does not apply to all areas of collecting where shades are assessed from used examples- but I would imagine it is more difficult!). Also, of course, red is renowned for fading.
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

I have nor mentioned using the UV lamp as yet. I will look tonight. Might sort out the Mi.60 at least. Or not.....

Mi.60a. dark brown under UV
Mi.60b. reddish brown under UV.

Shades under UV now!
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

johnrcrow wrote: 29 Jul 2020 19:40 Thanks Chkpoint..

Indeed a superb fake.


Image


I think mine shown earlier is almost as superb and cancelled as used!

Yours has a stamped ´proofing`though. Heaven knows who F. Müller is. There are several Müller proofers and non are ´F`.

The block too... at least they were both labelled ND.

What about the very expensive Christmas block? Was that a fake too?

John





Thanks John,

I went to the list of German expertizers you kindly provided a link for. It stated that his mark was forged since 1991! :|

Since his mark was cursive and mine isn't I will have to send it out for expertizing.

I want to say that I like that you provide SG catalog numbers and values. I find this very useful, I now have three different ways to list and value these stamps.

Please continue posting these, I know we are getting away from SG, what made you use the SG?
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Chkpoint

Thanks for reply.

I use the Michel specialised in my collecting but thought that it might be useful to show the simplified approach in SG.

Most casual collectors of German stamps might find the SG easier to handle.

I am surprised at some of the CVs quoted in SG as compared to Michel in that shades are not so dominant and a highish figure is quoted in SG for many that are only high in Michel where a particular shade is identified.

I also like the SG for mainly quoting mint prices not indicating the hinge bit (NHM HM). Again the Michel is geared towards catering for the German market where never hinged mint stamps seem to be especially sought after so CVs are much lower for HM rather than NHM stamps.

Of course I have deviated from SG in showing the complexities of German stamps as these fascinate me.

Michel specialised then against the basic SG breakdown.

Loads more to come, my scanner awaits.

As to cancels you mentioned earlier, I will ponder this. I have large collection labelled cancels (stempel) and it is a major study in itself.

Added to which many cancels are forged e.g. in the high inflation era where genuine used stamps are at a massively high premium.

See my thread for inspiration?

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=60435

Sometimes Michel gives CVs for certain types of cancel and uses symbols to indicate these. I will get back on this.

John
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

East Saxony Mi.64 and Mi.65. (SG. RE24 and SG, RE25).

The SG is stark on this issue and follows the common sorts in Michel table.

However, Michel table shows that this might be a fruitful area for specialisation.

SG breakdown.

1946 (6 Feb) Reconstruction Fund p11.
RE24 6pf +44pf green 1.60 10.0
RE25 12pf +88pf red 1.60 10.0


Michel table for Mi.64 and 65.

Table from Michel specialised showing East Saxony Mi.63 and Mi64 stamps.
Table from Michel specialised showing East Saxony Mi.63 and Mi64 stamps.

We have different shades and particularly perforations where there are huge increases in CVs.

So it might be worth a second look even though chances of a good find are low (C to F perfs. seem to be very rare).

There are also several flaws.


Here are the flaws recognised in Philotax catalogue.

I have rearranged them for convenience.

They correspond to flaws in Michel specialised.


Mi.63.

Flaws on Mi.63 from Phliotax catalogue.
Flaws on Mi.63 from Phliotax catalogue.






Mi.64.


Flaws on Mi.64 from Phliotax catalogue.
Flaws on Mi.64 from Phliotax catalogue.

I can get closer scans for Mi.63, if anyone wants them.




Shades. Not too hard.



Mi.63 shades.

Mi. 63 shades a and b East Saxony stamps. Also shows flaw IV on left stamp.
Mi. 63 shades a and b East Saxony stamps. Also shows flaw IV on left stamp.




Mi.64 shades

Mi. 64 shades a and b East Saxony stamps.
Mi. 64 shades a and b East Saxony stamps.

There are also many varieties that are not perforated and these have high CVs in Michel.
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

As far as I understand it the SG catalogues are essentially a "price list" of what they would charge you for a stamp (if they had it in stock!).They are unlikely to check for shades etc.

Michel, however, presumably tries to reflect current market values and often states that this is only for "expertised" examples!

Have I got it right?
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Old D.

The ´service`side of what catalogues do has been discussed many times here I am sure.

SG is providing a service to collectors and is interested in selling stamps. Apart from glaring rarities they stick to the feasible.

Michel reflects more the many learned studies on German stamps and is therefore far more useful to the more avid collector In identifying the rarities.

Of course this affects estimated prices and this in turn affects collectors (me) in competition for the stamps.

Validation is all important due to the past (and present) efforts to forge rarer examples so as you say OldD, Michel stresses the expertisation of examples.


What collectors miss out on using SG is the identification of possible rare stamps. This involves having a good quantity of stamps and identifying perforations, papers, shades, flaws, watermarks, impressions, overprints etc. So indeed Michel is for the specialised collector. Oh and of course you need the ´knowledge is power` catalogues.


I add that I have not seen the Michel ´simplified`versions so cannot comment on how these relate to SG.

This thread really emphasises the big difference in specialised and basic catalogues but I hope it encourages some to delve more into the German area.

As for reflecting current market value, not easy for anyone to do. The markets change and some of the estimated CVs in infrequently updated catalogues do not. e.g. the pre 1900 German Private issues.

The other non Germany stamps Michel catalogues do not reflect as much specialisation as for the German stamps.

The worth to me then might be better in the chase rather than the CV (well maybe until someone tries to sell my collection). Worth my first smiley :lol:
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Revisit to Province Sachsen (SAXONY) stamps.



Here is the SG cataloguing for Saxony stamps.





SG catalogue for Saxony stamps. RC1 to RC 26.
SG catalogue for Saxony stamps. RC1 to RC 26.





GG catalogue for Saxony stamps. RC1 to RC 27-31.
GG catalogue for Saxony stamps. RC1 to RC 27-31.



Here are some of my mint examples of the entire issues Saxony (Sachsen) stamps arranged as in SG as a reminder.




SG RC8 to RC19 Mint  Saxony postage stamps.
SG RC8 to RC19 Mint Saxony postage stamps.





SG RC1 to RC7 Mint Saxony postage stamps.
SG RC1 to RC7 Mint Saxony postage stamps.






SG RC20 to RC25 Mint Saxony postage stamps.
SG RC20 to RC25 Mint Saxony postage stamps.






SG RC26 to RC31 Mint Saxony postage stamps.
SG RC26 to RC31 Mint Saxony postage stamps.


The most salient thing that leaps out is the SG CV for the RC15 15pf claret!

More on this next. Off to walk dogs......in the rain.....
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

The value of the 15Pf surely depends whether it is Mi80X (Perf. 10x10) or 80Y (Perf.13x12½) with the former having the high value?
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks OldD.

Here is Michel table for the Saxony Mi.73 to 84 WM X and Y.

Michel table for Saxony stamps Mi.73 to Mi.84.
Michel table for Saxony stamps Mi.73 to Mi.84.

Note Mi.80X a and b and 80Y a and b are shown, (I am missing the perf 10 x 10 assignment to stamps?).

The SG merely lumps SG15 as RC15 claret.

Please help me, more insanity creeping in.

I read this as indicating that Mi.80 with watermarks X or Y were the dominant features. The rare WM. is X.

Bottom line, I was at a loss to know that the Mi.80X is perf. 10 X 10 and that SG is confusing in its valuation



Here are my Mi 80 Y lot. No luck for an X!



Group of Saxony Mi.80. 15pf stamps.
Group of Saxony Mi.80. 15pf stamps.




Some manipulation (increased saturation) led to this in trying to look at shades.

The Mi.80b is bottom row, left hand stamp in scan above.
The ratios reflect the number found in my lot over total number looked at (22).


Comparison of Mi. 80a and Mi. 80b shades.
Comparison of Mi. 80a and Mi. 80b shades.


The Michel table shows this is a rich hunting ground for scarce stamps.

Here is Michel table with stamps highlighted according to higher CV. (red highest, blue less).

This shows that attention to WM and shade is imperative to ferret out the rarities.


Michel table for Saxony stamps Mi.73 to Mi.84. Highlighted higher CV stamps.
Michel table for Saxony stamps Mi.73 to Mi.84. Highlighted higher CV stamps.

So it is out with the scanner and a closer look at shades!
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Look at the Mi.84 40pf.


Here are my lot.

Normal scan.

Group of Mi,84. 40Pf Saxony stamps. Normal scan.
Group of Mi,84. 40Pf Saxony stamps. Normal scan.

Enhanced scan.

Group of Mi,84. 40Pf Saxony stamps. Enhanced scan.
Group of Mi,84. 40Pf Saxony stamps. Enhanced scan.


Selected stamps showing shade differences on enhanced scans.
Bottom row, right stamp shows WM.Y (Mi,84c) next to selected stamp showing same shade.
Handy that Mi.84Y has only one shade ©!

Top row left to right is is Mi.84X b (dark lilac purple) and Mi.84X a (dark lilac pink).





Selected Mi.84. Saxony stamps showing shade differences after enhancement.
Selected Mi.84. Saxony stamps showing shade differences after enhancement.

So three shades shown representing Mi.84X a, b and c showing up well after enhancement.
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by Chkpoint Charlie »

johnrcrow wrote: 03 Aug 2020 19:54 Chkpoint

Thanks for reply.

I use the Michel specialised in my collecting but thought that it might be useful to show the simplified approach in SG.

Most casual collectors of German stamps might find the SG easier to handle.

I am surprised at some of the CVs quoted in SG as compared to Michel in that shades are not so dominant and a highish figure is quoted in SG for many that are only high in Michel where a particular shade is identified.

I also like the SG for mainly quoting mint prices not indicating the hinge bit (NHM HM). Again the Michel is geared towards catering for the German market where never hinged mint stamps seem to be especially sought after so CVs are much lower for HM rather than NHM stamps.

Of course I have deviated from SG in showing the complexities of German stamps as these fascinate me.

Michel specialised then against the basic SG breakdown.

Loads more to come, my scanner awaits.

As to cancels you mentioned earlier, I will ponder this. I have large collection labelled cancels (stempel) and it is a major study in itself.

Added to which many cancels are forged e.g. in the high inflation era where genuine used stamps are at a massively high premium.

See my thread for inspiration?

https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=60435

Sometimes Michel gives CVs for certain types of cancel and uses symbols to indicate these. I will get back on this.

John


Thank you John, this is a very interesting thread, I will have to go through it a few times to get a handle on these stamps.

I finished going over my new collection, this forum is a great eye opener for all the pitfalls and triumphs in stamp collecting. I have been naïve in believing that most people are honest and ethical when they buy and sell material. Now, with all the stamps cataloged using Michel I would like your and ODuff's opinion about the collection as a whole.

Here are the best stamps out of the bunch, other then the blocks.
high cat value stamps.jpg
All the sets that these six belong to have the same cancellations as the ones pictured!

The five different blocks are all CTO. Only the DDR block 6 has the special cancel listed and priced.

Here is the breakdown using Michel,

Total faulty, fake, and missing (80X and Thuringia block4), 7294 euros
Total sound (224 different stamps & blocks), 12087 euros (note, most are favor canceled or CTO) true value?

I paid 9.6% of Michel catalog value for the sound stamps and blocks, that would be a very fair price to pay for this scarce material. But........ it's mostly philatelic cancels, I expected mostly expertized postally used stamps from a German collector!

I let the company, who sold me this pig in a poke, what is going on. Let's see how it goes. :roll:
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Chkpoint.


Thanks for the scans.

It is not easy to assess these at distance. I wonder what the description was for the collection? Provenence?

Always there is doubt over cancels in the German stamps. This is particularly important when looking at rare stamps that are the obvious targets for a huge mark up if cancelled as yours are.

If the stamps have been through the mill of being handled then, for the rarities, it is usual that there has been some proofing made. So always buy stamps of this possible calibre that are proofed, preferably nowadays with a photo certificate. Cold comfort.

Also the recommendation for cancels is that most of the strike is shown not just a small portion. Very clean cancels and the same dated cancels in a collection are also suspect.

Can you send scans of backs of the back of the stamps? This is illuminating as to possible paper type, gumming etc and this is vital in some of your examples. We should also look at back since the stamps are supposedly used and one can possibly see any effects when the stamp was removed from a letter, so stamp condition helps nail authentic ones. Also check the watermarks. X and Y are easy.

The 151 X should be easy, WM X should be clear. Even with a false cancel (if so) this is worth €90 (as for HM). Cancelled as you say around €1200. Same for the 153X. HM €35 used €400. Also the 155X check WM and date in cancel.

Do these have the same cancel! That would worry me.

The 206 wax needs to be looked at. Since it is used one has to look at the possible gumming. This should have had smooth gum and telling this is not always easy. It is easy however to see when the gum was horizontally or vertically ribbed.

The Berlin overprint area (206wbx) is fraught with problems and I leave to to others (Gavin?) to comment. Back needed for this one to see any oily leak through.

Mi113Ayy. Should have economy gumming (all paper y´s have this) and be THIN 0.06mm or less (get out the micrometer) and if so then we have to look at that cancel. Paper y is 0.065 to 0.09mm.

So let's see the backs and then progress.

John
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by DarrenK »

Chkpoint Charlie,

If you can provide large scans front and rear of each stamp then we would have a chance of evaluating the stamps.

The first one looks suspect straight away to me but you need to see the back of these. The ink used is "oily" and leaches through the stamps.

We have all been through the stage where we think everyone selling stamps is genuine and honest. Many lots are "salted" with a few good items that you just happen to see in the scans of bulk lots. The truth is these are often damaged or in poor condition and they are used to make you think there are potential treasures in the lots.

With the collections you purchased, it depends a lot on what you paid. It is also important as to how the collections were portrayed to you. Is it a reputable dealer? If so you have comeback.
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Just a quick note after sending last post.

Looking at the positioning of those cancels on the 151, 153 and 155 I would be suspicious!

See if they are the same dates, then I really would be suspicious.


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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Wise words from DarrenK..... backs please then and possibly larger individual scans?

Chkpoint

Lots on hand stamped stuff as for your 206 in Gavin´s thread (again a font of information about Russian Zone).


https://www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16899&start=150


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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by DarrenK »

I'll just add a sample here of the hand overprint showing the "oily" ink.

Hand overprint_0001.jpg

Hand overprint_0002.jpg
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

johnrcrow wrote: 04 Aug 2020 05:57

Note Mi.80X a and b and 80Y a and b are shown, (I am missing the perf 10 x 10 assignment to stamps?).

The SG merely lumps SG15 as RC15 claret.

Please help me, more insanity creeping in.

I read this as indicating that Mi.80 with watermarks X or Y were the dominant features. The rare WM. is X.

Bottom line, I was at a loss to know that the Mi.80X is perf. 10 X 10 and that SG is confusing in its valuation
Don't worry johnrcrow- the senility is setting in on my side, not yours! 10x10 is, of course, the dimension- the difference between X and Y being, as you correctly state, in the watermark. :oops: As you show the perf. is indicated by "13: 12½" and not "13x12½". Presumably this means "something between", or "varying in this range"?
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks OldD.....

Let us say that senility is shared.

I am still stumped as to how SG can give a high CV for the 15Pf claret without informing that this relies on there being a particular watermark- ´X`.

The ´Y` WM renders the stamp common and hence a low CV.

I must offer SG my lot of 15Pf clarets.

Note the Michel does not use claret and instead favours lilac carmine or brown-red.

John
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by nigelc »

johnrcrow wrote: 04 Aug 2020 22:41 I am still stumped as to how SG can give a high CV for the 15Pf claret without informing that this relies on there being a particular watermark- ´X`.

The ´Y` WM renders the stamp common and hence a low CV.

I must offer SG my lot of 15Pf clarets.
Hi John,
I wonder if the mint price is a typo.

In my SG Germany 9th Edition the prices for SG RC14 are 30p (mint) and £26.00 (used).
Nigel
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by DarrenK »

These are some West Saxony Private Perforations all stamped and signed.

There are a huge number of different Postmaster Separations, these appear to be about Perf 9.

West Saxony_0001.jpg
West Saxony_0002.jpg
West Saxony_0003.jpg
West Saxony_0004.jpg
West Saxony rear.jpg

I haven't seen the Privatdurchstich stamp on the back of any other stamps along with a "Proof" mark. Does anyone know if this is common practice?

It doesn't indicate any catalogue number which I find unusual.
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks Nigel and Darren.

Nigel. I can only assume this is a latest edition SG typo... or they have re assessed the likelihood of getting an X.

RC 15 for 15Pf claret is the identifier in my latest edition.


As to the West Saxony Darren, I have no experience with the proofing and otherwise markings.

A great lot there and the various postmaster separations are a challenge.


I will delve into West Saxony next.....more shades, paper sorts and perfs! We can bring up your rarities again.


First though I will show some flaws I have of the Saxony issues.

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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by nigelc »

johnrcrow wrote: 05 Aug 2020 00:42 Nigel. I can only assume this is a latest edition SG typo... or they have re assessed the likelihood of getting an X.

RC 15 for 15Pf claret is the identifier in my latest edition.
Oops! That was one of my typos. :oops:

I'll try again:

In my SG Germany 9th Edition the prices for SG RC15 are 30p (mint) and £26.00 (used).
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Here are some flaws that may be encountered.


Flaw Mi. 73 IV Saxony stamp used. Mi.CV €50. Philotax CV shown on scan and always are about 15% of Mi.CV reflecting market .
Flaw Mi. 73 IV Saxony stamp used. Mi.CV €50. Philotax CV shown on scan and always are about 15% of Mi.CV reflecting market .









Flaw Mi. 78 IV Saxony stamp. Thin left hand border.
Flaw Mi. 78 IV Saxony stamp. Thin left hand border.










Flaw Mi.81 II Saxony stamp. Thickened and messy areas around the ´2`in ´20`.
Flaw Mi.81 II Saxony stamp. Thickened and messy areas around the ´2`in ´20`.









Flaw Mi. 85 I Saxony stamp. Blob on ´S`of ´SACHSEN`.
Flaw Mi. 85 I Saxony stamp. Blob on ´S`of ´SACHSEN`.










Flaw Mi. 85 II Saxony stamp. Spike from forest into field.
Flaw Mi. 85 II Saxony stamp. Spike from forest into field.
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Flaw Mi. 85 VI. Saxony stamp. Spike into sky from forest.
Flaw Mi. 85 VI. Saxony stamp. Spike into sky from forest.









Flaw Mi. 86 VI. Saxony stamp. Mark after ´N`in ´SACHSEN`
Flaw Mi. 86 VI. Saxony stamp. Mark after ´N`in ´SACHSEN`








Flaw  2 x Mi. 87 III. Saxony stamps. Dot on house bricks.
Flaw 2 x Mi. 87 III. Saxony stamps. Dot on house bricks.







Flaw Mi. 87 IV. Saxony stamp. Missing lines in ´6`.
Flaw Mi. 87 IV. Saxony stamp. Missing lines in ´6`.








Flaw Mi. 87 VI. Saxony stamp. Line at bottom of scaffolding.
Flaw Mi. 87 VI. Saxony stamp. Line at bottom of scaffolding.
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Flaw Mi.87 VIII, Saxony stamp. Bulge at base of left leg of ´A`in ´SACHSEN`.
Flaw Mi.87 VIII, Saxony stamp. Bulge at base of left leg of ´A`in ´SACHSEN`.










Flaw 2 x Mi.87 V. Saxony stamp. Hammer handle break.
Flaw 2 x Mi.87 V. Saxony stamp. Hammer handle break.












Flaw 2 x Mi.88 II. Saxony stamp. Large mark under bridge.
Flaw 2 x Mi.88 II. Saxony stamp. Large mark under bridge.










Flaw Mi.88 III. Saxony stamp. Break in ´A`of ---BAU
Flaw Mi.88 III. Saxony stamp. Break in ´A`of ---BAU










Flaw 2 x Mi.88 VII. Saxony stamp. ´N`in ´PROVINZ`with streak top left.
Flaw 2 x Mi.88 VII. Saxony stamp. ´N`in ´PROVINZ`with streak top left.
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Flaw Mi. 89 IV. Saxony stamp. Streak under ´2`.
Flaw Mi. 89 IV. Saxony stamp. Streak under ´2`.










Flaw Mi. 89 VI. Saxony stamp. Joined ´S`and´A`in ´SACHSEN`.
Flaw Mi. 89 VI. Saxony stamp. Joined ´S`and´A`in ´SACHSEN`.









Flaw Mi. 89 VII. Saxony stamp. Mark in horn handle.
Flaw Mi. 89 VII. Saxony stamp. Mark in horn handle.









Flaw Mi. 89 VIII. Saxony stamp. Black dot in girders under the ´8`.
Flaw Mi. 89 VIII. Saxony stamp. Black dot in girders under the ´8`.
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Flaw Mi.90 II. Saxony stamp. Gap in ploughed field.
Flaw Mi.90 II. Saxony stamp. Gap in ploughed field.









Flaw Mi.90 VIII. Saxony stamp. Small break in roof tile under chimney.
Flaw Mi.90 VIII. Saxony stamp. Small break in roof tile under chimney.
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Always wondered with these "Bodenreform" issues- are they extolling the latest wonders of the horse drawn plough? Of course, the Mecklenburg stamp has a human operated one!

Here is a 1929 Russian stamp:

tractor 1929.jpg
USSR SG564

Perhaps the Russians had pinched all the German tractors?
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Lovely point OldD.

That was reform?

John
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Just starting a new thread on using brightness, saturation and contrast to separate shades on postage stamps from scanned images since I seem always to find a way into enhancement in any of my offerings.


I thought it better to have a thread rather than post here.

John
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

I thought I would play around with some shades and as I have made scans thought I would share.


a. Here is normal scan of the 6Pf Mi.58 stamps (SG RC11).

Normal scan of some Mi.58 East Saxony postage stamps.
Normal scan of some Mi.58 East Saxony postage stamps.

All look much the same.


SG gives colour as violet.
Michel has there shades.

Mi.58a. dark grey-violet.
Mi.58b. dark blue violet.
Mi.58c. dark violet.


Here are some stamps with enhancement. There seems to be some colour differentiation?



b. Enhanced stamps.


Enhanced  scan of some Mi.58 East Saxony postage stamps.
Enhanced scan of some Mi.58 East Saxony postage stamps.

Darker blue, lighter blue and pinkish?




c. I selected the area round the 6 for attention. Here are enlarged sections for stamps in b.



Selected area (6´s) of enhanced  scan of some Mi.58 East Saxony postage stamps.
Selected area (6´s) of enhanced scan of some Mi.58 East Saxony postage stamps.



d. Selected some of the 6, re-enhanced contrast.



Selected (6´s) examples with extra enhancement of some Mi.58 East Saxony postage stamps.
Selected (6´s) examples with extra enhancement of some Mi.58 East Saxony postage stamps.

Point?

I am trying to show that the distribution and colour of component pigment colour particles can be examined using enhancement.

This may or may not be useful.

The differences have to be related to probability of having a very rare shade in the number of stamps you have.


For Mi.58., no shades are rare however, this look to show that there are:

Differences in distribution of the particulate matter.
Differences in the colour of the distributed particulate matter.

Both affect the perceived shade.





A similar look was made using Mi.57 (5Pf) examples.

e. Just to show the interim work (mess) here is a work in progress scan.




Work in progress scan of Mi.57 East Saxony stamp differentiation.
Work in progress scan of Mi.57 East Saxony stamp differentiation.

Michel has Mi.57 as:

Mi.57a. dark green
Mi.57b. blackish blue green (from Specialised English version) although Michel in German indicates blackish olive green!).


f. Here is enhanced selection showing variety of greens (all mint).

Selected Mi.57 stamps enhanced. East Saxony
Selected Mi.57 stamps enhanced. East Saxony


g. Enlarged 5.




Selected Mi.57 areas (5 )  enhanced. East Saxony
Selected Mi.57 areas (5 ) enhanced. East Saxony


Again the distribution and colour of particulate matter can be observed.

I will leave it there without concluding what shades I discovered.

It could be that there is a total spectrum of colours and distributions so best stick to SG? VIOLET and GREEN.


I fully expect some objections and comments about this, that is why I am developing ´master`thread on using brightness, saturation and contrast to separate shades on postage stamps from scanned images. I hope I can develop this using better examples to aid deciphering colour.

I cannot wait to see what happens when I look at the Australia GV 1d heads :o

Maybe I will wait......

See this German link. He seems too have a similar approach where colour comes up when looking at 1875-1900 German stamps. In German though.

http://www.philhaha.de
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by DarrenK »

It is such a minefield and so open to interpretation.

I think your scans really do work in highlighting the differences. Many have tried to develop systems for analysing colours and when you are naive you think systems that are used in printing for analysing Pantone colours would work. Unfortunately this has proved not to be the case.

With the scans and enhancements you have provided I think you may be on a path that will lead somewhere. The differences after enhancement is obvious and the colour distribution on the enlargements shows how the differences are occurring.

One must ask after all these years how much variance is in the stamps due to storage conditions?

Thank you for your efforts John.
Always interested in trading German material especially post war period.
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Thanks Darren for the encouraging words.

I will refine the method and scan higher, this may be more conclusive when I separate mint and used a well as look at proofed examples.

Now that I have the bones of a method (laughing as I have made these studies over the years in SB) I will refine them and see whether they a can be of real use.

As to your reference to variance in storage conditions I agree and certainly some stamps are obviously out on a limb as far as paper colour jumping out when enhancement is made, usually a bright yellow. One can also see the effects of any backing paper from the original vehicles for the stamps. I will refer to this in the new thread, so maybe such ´duds`can be ignored.

I would add that looking at many used examples it is remarkable that many share the same shades in line with perceived ideas (catalogues) so as an illustrative (overview) example, looking at 100 blues, we might see three shades in my enhancements, where 70 show very similar ´shades` 28 show a distinct difference and 2 show a very distinct difference to the other two. Often this reflects a catalogue breakdown, the 75 common, the 28 less common and the few, a rarer shade. The key is to match the enhancements with the reported shades (full circle as to the prevalence of the shades).

So finding the rare shade is what it is all about really. Rare shades are supposedly rare as they were not ´made`in high numbers. So the chance of a rare shade is low especially when one has only a few stamps to compare. Theoretically then if a rare´ísh stamp was produced at a 1/100 of the common stamp, then one would need at least 100 stamps to hopefully find one! If at 1/1000 then one would need a thousand, etc.

One thing I have found is that here are many proofed stamps for shade that do not fit in with my ´colour` comparisons. Of course some do, but for old proofing I have found many rather easy to see discrepancies.

One finding is that the distribution of the particles and the colours of the distributions varies a great deal. I suppose this reflects the source and use of the inks used, how they were mixed and applied (and how changes on storage of stamps affects reflectance).

An overall conclusion from what I see is that that here is a continuum of shades due to the vagaries of ink production by the individual, physical production factors, components from suppliers, shortages, shortcuts etc. When a shade becomes a full blown colour defining difference from the ´norm` is debatable. The catalogues recognise this I suppose with a ´red (shades)´and then following with a red-brown. Sometimes even pushing this to red-brown (shades) etc.

There is sometimes little information about where the stamps were produced to link this to changes in colour menus. Where there is information, then the shades can ascribed both by looking and linked to a different producer. I assume that German scholars applied this knowledge where available to ascribing colours knowing that there was a change in circumstances e.g. the 1880-89 PFENNIG issues. The article

http://www.philhaha.de

deals with this as well as various Handbooks.

Onward and up?

34 centigrade here and need some shade.

John
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Here is a Thuringen cover which I have just received- thought it would find a place here as one of the stamps has a Plate Flaw.

PLAT XIII COVER.jpg
SBZ Mi95

Here is the stamp showing Plate Flaw XIII -"upper borderline stands 2/3 higher (pos.99, D sheet)"

PLAT XIII COVER crop.jpg
SBZ Mi95XIII

The reverse has, rather nicely, five expertising marks by D.Schulz:

PLAT XIII COVER REV.jpg
These indicate the paper types, as well as the plate flaw:

PLAT XIII COVER EM1.jpg
PLAT XIII COVER EM2 AND 3.jpg
PLAT XIII COVER EM4.jpg

Taking the stamps from the right: "dt": "white to yellowish-grey paper with a fine net structure" - probably the commonest type.
"dv": "grey to yellowish granite paper with small woody inclusions"- a less common type.
"XIIIdv"- Plate flaw
"dv"- As above.
Also "3."? - which I have no idea about (may be an incomplete strike?).
PLAT XIII COVER EM5.jpg

The "v" paper stamps also appear to have a paler hue, although this doesn't seem to be mentioned specifically in Michel Specialized.

I didn't really expect to win this cover (on ebay.de) as I thought it would go for a much higher sum (although the seller hadn't shown the reverse!); also it had already already attracted 3 bids so expected some autosniping- strangely this didn't happen!

Any thoughts?
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Old D.

Got to love that cover and the attention it received.

I wonder how he established the paper types so easily on a letter?

Maybe the woody inclusions can be seen easily? Maybe no woody inclusions can be established.

The 3.- seems to be a value someone ascribed, as in ´3 shillings`.

I often find these ´valuations` (as I am sure you do) on letters, lucky this one is in pencil.

I like the flaw, €8 used in Philotax, but this one on a letter, nice find.

John
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Yes, close inspection does seem to show a few "woody inclusions". Strange that there is no mention of other shades of green- perhaps these are just faded?

Michel (2009) gives a value of 70 Euros for this Flaw on cover, although I don't know if the paper type makes a difference, (although without a flaw it suggest 5x the value for Paper "v" over Paper "t"). The true value, of course, is what the market will bear. In this case just over 8 Euros, (in fact less than I recently paid for a cover bearing 4 of these stamps of the "ordinary" type!). This stamp has so many possible flaws that none are valued particularly highly!
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

A small attack on those Mecklenburg-Vorpommern Mi.8 (SB 1). The black on greens.

The small stamps of Mi.8. pose a problem in that the estimation of the green is not easy.

Simple enough for SG. Only RB1.

SG. RB1, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern postage stamp mint and used.
SG. RB1, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern postage stamp mint and used.

Note flaw on mint example.



Not as easy in Michel where we have three colour variations (shades too!).

The Michel sections of tables for Mi.8 are shown, comparing the German and English versions in the respective specialised catalogues.

Comparison of English and German versions of specialised catalogues tables showing Mi.8.
Comparison of English and German versions of specialised catalogues tables showing Mi.8.


Note 8y and 8z show large increases in CV over the pale bluish green commoners.
So hunting them down is interesting.


A difficulty here is the closeness off the greens outlined.

Here are the Michel swatches for the greens mentioned plus a few more. I cannot find the mentioned mittel grey green.



Michel colour swatches for greens mentioned for Mi.8.
Michel colour swatches for greens mentioned for Mi.8.



Here is scan of a number of black on green Mi.8. example in a normal scan.

Normal scan of examples of Michel 8. Mecklenburg-Vorpommern postage stamps.
Normal scan of examples of Michel 8. Mecklenburg-Vorpommern postage stamps.


Here is scan of abacks of above black on green Mi.8. examples in a normal scan.

Normal scan of backs of examples of Michel 8. Mecklenburg-Vorpommern postage stamps.
Normal scan of backs of examples of Michel 8. Mecklenburg-Vorpommern postage stamps.

Basically not easy to discriminate these.

Next some enhancement (what else)?
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Enhancement of scans.

The idea is to see if there is any combination of brightness, contrast and saturation that can throw light (a pun indeed) on the colours.

Here are the Michel swatches with enhancement at 50% contrast and 100% saturation.
Michel colour swatches for greens mentioned for Mi.8.enhanced 50% contrast and 1ßß% saturation.
Michel colour swatches for greens mentioned for Mi.8.enhanced 50% contrast and 1ßß% saturation.



Same setting now for the examples above of Mi.8.

Fronts of examples.

Enhanced Mi.8 examples front.
Enhanced Mi.8 examples front.

Backs of examples


Enhanced Mi.8 examples back.
Enhanced Mi.8 examples back.

Still not too easy but some reassortment and more enlargement might help?







.
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Now enlarging areas looking more for distribution of ´colour`.


Rearranged according to discerned colour similarity.

Rearranged colours perceived after enhancement .
Rearranged colours perceived after enhancement .

A summation of colours ´observed`. More enlargement of sections in rearranged according to colour.


Linked colours to enlarged portions of sorted enhanced stamps. Mi.8.
Linked colours to enlarged portions of sorted enhanced stamps. Mi.8.

The 1 to 4 represent one example from each set of colours differentiated.



Conclusions.

1. Enhancement amplifies differences in colours.
2. Enlarging sections helps define distribution of colours.
3. Four ´shades` were found.
4. 1 and 2 (as in last scan) are very similar; 2 contains more dark green and bluish elements.
and 3 is distinctly darker green; 4. is more blue green than 1 or 2.
5. Relating to Mi.8 x, y and z.

Swatches enhanced for Mi.8 colours.

Michel swatches for expected colours in Mi.8.
Michel swatches for expected colours in Mi.8.




Mi.8x. 1 and 4 as from above summation of colours ´observed`. The 2 is a shade difference for 8x?
Mi.8y ?
Mi.8z. 3 from summation of colours ´observed`.

Seems my art is taking over from science.

John
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Wow!
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Now for Mi.9. The ´violets`on white paper and Mi.10. the violet on green paper.

Here is Michel Table for Mi.9 and Mi. 10.


Michel table for Mi.9 and Mi.10. Mecklenburg-Vorpommern stamps.
Michel table for Mi.9 and Mi.10. Mecklenburg-Vorpommern stamps.


For the Mi. 9 it is not so hard to discriminate the shades however, as with all colour comparisons, there is a continuum (shades) within distinct colours and enhancement can help with marking the definitive distinction.

Here are the swatches for Michel colours identifying the colours normal and enhanced.


Michel swatches for colours in Mi.9 and Mi.10. Before and after enhancement (Brightness, contrast and saturation at 50%).
Michel swatches for colours in Mi.9 and Mi.10. Before and after enhancement (Brightness, contrast and saturation at 50%).

Here is a lot of stamps on white paper, normal can. Contains both Mi.9 and Mi.10 (on green paper).




Examples of Mi.9 and Mi.10 normal scan.
Examples of Mi.9 and Mi.10 normal scan.






Here are same lot with enhancement.




Examples of Mi.9 and Mi.10 enhanced<br />scan.
Examples of Mi.9 and Mi.10 enhanced
scan.






Here are same lot organised into similar colours.



Examples of Mi.9 and Mi.10 enhanced scan organised into similar colours.
Examples of Mi.9 and Mi.10 enhanced scan organised into similar colours.






Here is one way to assess colours after enhancement for Mi.9.




Using enhanced swatches to identify colours of Mi.9.
Using enhanced swatches to identify colours of Mi.9.
I think the stamp in bottom right hand corner is Mi.9 d?




A simpler look.

on white enh.png



Lastly, the Mi.10 enhanced lot. Similar greens except for last stamp bottom row right.


Mi.10. enhanced lot.
Mi.10. enhanced lot.
Bottom right hand corner stamp of interest.


I suppose distinguishing between the dark red violet and dark grey violet is made easier.

However, there is somewhat of an overlap when large magnifications of areas stamps are looked at, I will not show these. unless requested :D
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Just received this item as an example of the SBZ "Personalities" issue 84Pf used on a Regional Registered cover.

SBZ 84Pf COVER.jpg
SBZ Mi227

However it has a proofing mark that appears to say "Wz 4." I cannot see a variety like this listed in Michel so help sought!

84Pf crop1.jpg
84Pf crop2.jpg
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by DarrenK »

I've checked in 2 different copies of Specialised Catalogues and there is no mention of a different watermark.

The only difference listed is paper types V and W.
Always interested in trading German material especially post war period.
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Thanks, DarrenK. My Michel Specialized (2009) says that at least 17 paper types were used!

Also "Caution! This issue is being completely reevaluated by the responsible BPP expertizers. Until their work is completed, expertizing will not be undertaken". So if an "old" mark will probably no longer be relevant.

I am not expecting it to be a scarce variety, in any case!
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

Maybe you can shine a very bright light through the cover and maybe see what WM is?

John
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

johnrcrow wrote: 27 Aug 2020 03:51 Maybe you can shine a very bright light through the cover and maybe see what WM is?

John
Can't really make anything out. Checking watermarks on cover ain't easy!
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

What suddenly struck me was that, of course, a new, slightly shorter, series of the same designs was issued by the DDR from late 1952 to 1953. However the 84Pf (Mi341) was not issued until November '52. The watermark is also given as "2x" ("DDR and posthorns").
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by johnrcrow »

I also thought it might be a later printing but came to same conclusion.

The WZ 4 remains a mystery. I also thought it might allude to a flaw.

However, maybe the Wz means it is watermarked and the bit after refers to shade Mi.227a and paper x?

Just a thought.

Seems as if a lower case ´a` above a lower case ´x`was overstamped with a capital A (or R). The lower letter could be an M (Martin.. see below) ? So a ´R` `M` over printing the ´a` an ´x`. So not a 4 at all... maybe!

What fun. Amazing what one can see close up (or not!).

Here is signature from Martin Rehfeld interestingly an East Germany expert as from link below.






https://www.filatelia.fi/experts/marks/rehfeld.jpg







rehfeld.jpg








wz.png




wz2.png
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Re: Germany. My Russian Zone SG catalogue defined pages.

Post by OldDuffer1 »

Nice one, johnrcrow! I think you are right- probably not a "4". However, as I suggested above, it seems that this whole issue is being re-evaluated so that old markings won't tell us much.

I didn't pay any extra over the basic value of the cover, in any case!
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